Talk:Fruit (slang)

Cockney

"Tin of Fruit" in Cockney rhyming slang means "Suit" but there is no mention of this in the article even though you have a large section on Cockney.

possible ref

• Fruit also Fruit loop, fruit packer, butt fruit, etc
  • Done. Benjiboi 08:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

References

Almost exclusively?

This definition of a slang term seems extremely biased towards LGBT and US terminology. For example "How're ya doin' me ol' fruit" is a very common expression in the south of England. Similarly "fruit cake" (as mentioned in the AfD) is a common expression that predates any usage of "LGBT" and means idiot, fool, mentally impaired. These are common expressions that are not linked to gay terminology, have no etymological basis in Polari but yet receive no mention in the article. It seems the title of the article has been forgotten totally and has become "Fruit (gay slang)". There's just too much bias and POV at the moment. ---- WebHamster 12:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I had to go where the sources led and am completely open to expanding or modifying text to address concerns. Please provide references we can use so we can sort out the best way to proceed. I have no doubt there is plenty more out there but I had to address all research within the time limit imposed by the Afd process and leave at least a day for voters to see that article could indeed be expanded. Benjiboi 23:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Well without being too specific at the moment your own research has shown that there are indeed usages in cockney rhyming slang, e.g. fruit gum = chum, fruit = suit (a Google for "fruit rhyming slang" will show more). CRS also predates Polari by quite a considerable margin, though obviously some of the terms have more recent etymology. What is clear though is that "Fruit" as a slang term is only a 'recent' phenomenon with regard to LGBT usage. As you probably know some, maybe even a lot, of Polari is based on CRS usage/terms. I don't have the time to do the required research at the mo', but I will get on it when I can. ---- WebHamster 23:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Coming up with specific dates on slang usage was not easy but there was also hundreds of sources I didn't get to so there still might be some goldmine out there. Disagree that LGBT usage is recent as there does seem to be evidence of it's use in the 1800s. Benjiboi 23:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Update. I've added sections covering both fruitcake and Cockney rhyming slang. Benjiboi 18:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

AfD

Closed as No consensus. Although I disagree, as it was clearly Keep, the article is still here and alive. Awesome editing and rescue Benji. -- ALLSTAR ECHO 13:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

No consensus? either the closer failed basic math, or the heterocentrists are sore losers:-s Jeffpw (talk) 13:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I couldn't believe it went from prod to AfD with no tags, no discussion and seemingly no effort to improve it. I think it was non-admin close. I personally like a decent close that summarizes here are the outstanding issues so those who want to improve an article have more a clue what needs to be addressed. Also if characterizing this AfD closure incorrectly is true it might be a case of a friendly nudge for that (hopefully) well-meaning editor to develop that skill set a bit more. Benjiboi

I've messaged an admin whose closing comments have been pretty constructive in the past to take a look when they have time, let's see what they have to say. Benjiboi 22:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Update, so I was mistaken and it looks like the closing editor is an admin and "Keep and no consensus are about the same and usually only affect the time when AfD#2 can be listed." So leaving well enough for now. Benjiboi 21:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Coordination with fruitcake article

The fruitcake article says that fruitcake may mean nutty because of a few companies that add lots of nuts to fruitcake. However this article makes a jump from being nutty to fruitcake and doesn't know the origins, while the fruitcake article points out the possible origins. It needs to be fixed. Either it was or wasn't the origin. Personally, I think it you combine it, you get a pretty good reasoning.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 15:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I checked the reference sited and it was a bit bogus (Urban dictionary with definitions voted for online by users). So both articles are reasonable to stay where they are; if you see something that might be an appropriate fix then please go for it. Benjiboi 20:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed image

Hi,

I removed the lynching image, as I think this article is a bit far from the topic for fair use. On the article about the photographer - fair use. On the article about the song inspired by the photographer - fair use. On an article about the slang term 'Fruit', which mentions the song that was inspired by the photo in passing - I think that's a bit hard to justify.

I've also trimmed some content from the section. It presented no source that 'Some people have mistakenly believed the 1939 song "Strange Fruit" is in reference to LGBT people' (surely only people who have entirely failed to listen to the lyrics?) and extemporised about lynchings in a way that had no real relevance to the topic of this page. Let me know if I've missed some significance of this content.... TSP (talk) 01:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You have but I will look for sourcing to make the case. As for not getting the lyrics? People are dumb, sometimes. I remember reading that many made the mistake and still didn't believe it after being told. -- Banjeboi 18:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Carl Panzram references fruiter

In his autobiography (Killer: A Journal of a Murder, published 1970), and in the 1996 feature film based upon it (Killer: A Journal of Murder), the serial-killer Carl Panzram makes many casual references to American prison life in the 1920s, including slang terms. Among these he cites the word fruiter, used while miming fellatio as a gay slur. The word is obviously truncated from fruiterer, and the "fruit" the person is "selling" or "buying" is evidently a banana - i.e., a penis. This does, I think, strongly suggest a definite origin of the further-truncated slang term under discussion, from fruiter to fruit. Nuttyskin (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Flyer

I think the currently posted flyer is promotional material for User Benjiboi and should not be included. User Benjiboi thinks that I am trying to censor this page and that the flyer should be included. Which one of us it right? - Schrandit (talk) 15:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Third Opinion

Please describe how the flier in question is promotional material for the uploader. The inclusion of the flier adds a good amount of EV to the article, showing a common usage of the article's subject, it is not directly or blatantly promoting an event (read WP:ADVERT). Schrandit's justification seems more like a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than WP:CENSOR, but as I see it now, there's no credible reason to remove the image from the article. Mildly Mad^T_C 15:42, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DJ Pusspuss (2nd nomination) and note the last DJ on the bill. Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 37#Benjiboi COI - how do we move forward might also be of interest. - Schrandit (talk) 17:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I see your point that User:Benjiboi has a history of potential COI edits, but please assume good faith on his part. If this article were about DJ Pusspuss or the event advertised, you might have an argument. But, the sole fact that the image is a promotional item doesn't justify its exclusion, unless it is directly being used as an advertisement (which, in this case, it is clearly not). Mildly Mad^T_C 18:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually those links prove that I have been accused of COI without any actual evidence or, more to the point of Wikipedia, any COI content editing. In fact the COIn thread shows how offbase the charges are simultaneously accusing me of COI on about 30 different articles. Instead we have another pile of bad faith from Schrandit who seems to have no end of disapproval for LGBT content of all sorts. I'm glad they posted this thread here as it saves me a trip to ANI to have someone else intervene. I had even though of having the image WP:Censored to remove whatever name they felt was so "promotional" and realized that flies in the face of what we're doing here. Hopefully they will consider moving on the subjects of which they do apparently approve as they may actually be a benefit for Wikipedia as a whole. If not we can look to other avenues to help them refocus their energies constructively. -- Banjeboi 06:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Megalopolis

I removed "London in the 1840s was more like a 21st century Third World megalopolis than a 19th century city. A significant portion of the population had no fixed place of work or fixed abode. The city teemed with outsiders, migrants from other parts of Britain and Europe. The confluence of these factors led to linguistical changes including the unique development of terms used by the costermongers which later developed into some of the polari language."

In fact, London was exactly like a 19th century city in the 19th century, more than it was like a 21st century megalopolis. I'd like to know how "the confluence of these factors led to linguistical changes". It needs a source I think. Rhyming slang needed no migrants. Polari is probably an exception. Tsinfandel (talk) 00:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Polari, from my readings so far, is amalgamation of languages slanged together and derives from carnival/circus folks and seamen - who traveled extensively and the costmongers who were at best transient. I'll see if I can source this so there is less conflict on the issue. -- Banjeboi 04:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

File:Fruitpackers event flyer.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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'Jodonytë, Morkienë'

These Lithuanian surnames are misspelled here with an accent (¨) that doesn't exist in that language. Either the correct accent should be used (Jodonytė, Morkienė, as in the original quoted source), or else no accent should be used at all (Jodonyte, Morkiene). This comment may strike some readers as nitpicking, but the use of an accent at all suggests (wrongly) that it's the correct original one. Whatever some English-speakers tend to think, accents in other languages are not just interchangeable decoration!213.127.210.95 (talk) 17:39, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Fruit Punch radio show

Updated dates for Fruit Punch radio show, in part based on info in this article which cites sources in KPFA’s schedule publication Folio. Wikipedia didn’t like this as a source because of the site it is hosted on but references to Folio might work out. https://tenwatts.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-history-of-lgbt-radio-part-6.html Larrybob (talk) 18:20, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Strange Fruit - song

Re:

"Strange Fruit" is most often a reference to the lynchings of black people in the American South, in reference to the jazz song of that name popularised by Billie Holiday. Fruit of the gibbet (used 18th through late 19th centuries) refers to a hanged man[37] and derives from the Halifax Gibbet Law under which a prisoner was executed first and his guilt or innocence determined afterwards.[38][39]

The Halifax Gibbet was an early guillotine. The linked Wikipedia article does go on to discuss the Halifax Gibbet Law - but at first sight this is an incongruous link for a reference to hanging.

It would be helpful to clarify how the term "Fruit of the gibbet" derives from the Halifax Gibbet Law as the former is related here to hanging and the later covers execution more broadly.

I am not able to access the given sources. 94.126.214.13 (talk) 08:46, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Structure

As raised elsewhere there is an uneasy relationship between the different uses of this word in this article. If the material is to be kept as one topic I suggest some restructuring. This could be a few sections - gay, costermongers, and others with their own introduction and list. Another approach would be to keep the separate section for summaries but also split out the usage list. At the moment Strange Fruits (lynching of bodies hanging from trees) does not sit well within the list of other usage. This (and some other examples) are more metaphore than slang. The lede would then be able to describe more accurately the scope of the article. Any thoughts? 94.126.214.13 (talk) 16:59, 27 March 2022 (UTC)