Talk:Frederick Trump/Archives/2017

This is an archive of past discussions about Frederick Trump. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

So funny! Trump since 17th century

Since 17th only Trump in Kallstadt, no Drumps to find. His father Johannes named Trump. The sister of Johannes Charlotte Luise Trump, was the grandmother of Henry J. Heinz. Just read sources, not the Fox News styled. ;-)) --Goetzmertz (talk) 10:02, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree: Simply look at the two references given in the beginning of the article (Crolly, Blair); both state that Friedrich Trump has never been called Drumpf in his life, and Blair explains that the whole family changed their spelling from Drumpf to Trump in the course of the 17th (!) century. I urge the other contributors not to continue inserting this debunked myth into the article, especially when you give no sources for your edits. I will rework the initial sentence once again in order to make it compatible with the given references. --Andropov (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

The Drumpf story is prevalent. It would be good to indicate where this came from, I think.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Alright, but as you would like to mention it, I ask you to provide material on this. --Andropov (talk) 08:37, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure where the error originated. It would be good to add it in if anyone has information.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

The article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Trump#cite_ref-5 by quotes Donald Trump's biographer as being the source for this error. The page should mention the dispute over his name, cite Donald Trump's biographer as the evidence for this, and cite whatever sources Goetzmertz is referring to above as the evidence against. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hatfinch (talk • contribs) 17:29, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

As the error keeps on being inserted into the article, it would be good to document it, as the Swede story is documented. If we did say something about the error, it would stop people thinking they are improving the article by inserting it again. Blair explains that the name was changed in the 17th century, but doesn't appear to say where the modern claim came from. Does anyone have a source?--Jack Upland (talk) 18:49, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

The lack of internal consistency in the article becomes a problem. If we believe the sources saying Trump was the original name it follows that Trumpf on the immigration list was a clerical error. It then creates confusion describing the switch back to Trump as an anglifying (since Trump is as German as Trumpf). Secondly, Goemertz needs to tone it down and be less nasty as that in itself is an incentive to edit wars.--Batmacumba (talk) 16:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

There are multiple books referring to the name Drumpf. Gwenda Blair, The Trumps: Three Generations of Builders and a Presidential Candidate Paperback – December 4, 2001 for example. There are more easily found, because its trivially googleable : https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=drumpf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.254.216 (talk) 17:25, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

The only "Drumpf" in Blair's book is to a Hanns Drumpf in 1608. In Donald Trump's autobiography he refers to Blairs book: "A writer named Gwenda Blair spent twelve years on her thorough history, The Trumps: Three Genrerations That Built an Empire. She even traced our lineage back to 1608, when a German lawyer names Hanns Drumpf setteld in the town of Kallstads, forty miles west of the Rhine River. According to Blair, one of my ancestors, a winegrower, changed the family name to Trump at the end of the 1600s - a good move, I think, since Drumpf Tower doesn't sound nearly as catchy." 1009 (talk) 03:30, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually end of XVIII c.There is genealogy entry on geni.com, people usually see the record before posting anything, but I don't argue it should be a wikipedia source. Keerp in mind that in earlier days the same person could have the name written in more than one way,and it was legitimate, and no name change was required, often was just how a person who wrote things down heard the name pronounced, people were not so exact about records in those days, as strange as it may appear to us today.On geni.com we have Friedrich Trump aka Trumpf, Joahnnes Trump aka Drumpf, born in 1789, and his father was also Trump aka Drumpf.^[1] Bialosz (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

As a german historian, I would like to support this entry. In the 17th century, names where written any which way, depending on the literacy of the persons involved, their dialects etc. There aren't many families whose last name was written the same way in the 17th century as it is now. Bohemien (talk) 15:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC) bohemien

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2016

This edit request to Frederick Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

'Friedrich Trump' should be changed to 'Friedrich Drumpf', since Mr Trump changed his name while in the US ^[2]. Similarly 'Christian Johannes Trump' should be changed to 'Christian Johannes Drumpf' since the elder 'Trump' never changed his name at all

Theologikal (talk) 19:04, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Please read the talkpage for the dozen, or so it seems, conversations about Trump/Drumpf. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Update: The legend of Hanns Drumpf (17th century)

There has been quite a debate on this topic in de.WP – and now I learned about Donald Trump (Last Week Tonight).

Obviously, the story of the "itinerant lawyer Hanns Drumpf" as the earliest known ancestor originates from Gwenda Blair's The Trumps, p. 26, and nobody knows where she got this information from. Now recently Kate Connolly from The Guardian visited Kallstadt and found at least half a dozen different spellings of "Trump" in the church register but doesn't mention "Drumpf". Independently, user:1rhb specifically searched for "Drumpf" in this register several months ago (on my request) and couldn't find any hints. (BTW: This is only about spellings because all these permutations are spoken the same way in the local idiom.)

Up to now, the best evidence on the President's German ancestors comes from the genealogists of GEDBAS.[1] According to this family tree, the grandfather of Friedrich Trump, Johannes Trump (1789-1835), came from the nearby village Bobenheim am Berg and moved to Kallstadt around 1800. So there is no evidence of any paternal ancestors in Kallstadt in the 17th century as claimed by Blair. And the surname Trump can be traced back to 1727 in Bobenheim.

There may have been an itinerant lawyer named Drumpf visiting Kallstadt in 1608 as Blair states, but the rest of her story (settling there and becoming the earliest known ancestor of Donald) is by no means from credible. --Klaus Frisch (talk) 11:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

there's an error in his original name

It says on wiki Frederick Trump (born Friedrich Trump; March 14, 1869 – May 27, 1918) and also it says Friedrich Trump in the info box. This should be corrected to Friedrich Trumpf as shown in his immigration papers.69.166.118.229 (talk) 01:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

"Friedr. Trumpf" is an error that occurred when 16 years old Friedrich arrived in NY. There's no question that his real surname and that of his father and his grandfather was Trump. --Klaus Frisch (talk) 02:11, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

You're right, immigration records show a German immigrant having a German name, Friedr. (Friedrich presumably) Trumpf. According to google translate, trumpf is a German word for the trump card. I would like to see proof that it is an error, something more reliable than a scan like this which would be considered a first hand source. The name is very clear and legible. If Blair is trying to say his ancestors changed their name something English/Brittish way back then, and the evidence contradicts that, maybe the book shouldn't be considered reliable. It looks more like some kind of official narrative the current Trump wants to push. As in, his ancestors were American before America even existed. Hogwash. Bitshifter700 (talk) 10:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

As to Trumpf, follow the link. This last name is more common than Trump but both are German. There is no need for speculations. Compare what I wrote above. BTW: Blair's book is excellent even though she made some mistakes. And "the current Trump" declared at least until 1987 that his parental ancestors came from Sweden. :) --Klaus Frisch (talk) 21:28, 25 November 2017 (UTC)