Talk:Fred W. Green

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BetacommandBot (talk) 09:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Other stuff on Governor Green

I pulled together the following from Time Magazine, which I have not tried to digest. Some of it belongs in the article. The brouhaha with the FCC is interesting, to say the least. He appointed Senator Arthur Vandenberg. His daughter eloped.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,787560,00.html

Time Magazine April 7, 1930 National Affairs: Michigan v. U. S.

Michigan citizens were last week waiting to see if U. S. agents would attempt to arrest their Governor, Fred Warren Green. And if they did, would Governor Green, as he had promised, "throw them out of the State?" And, if all that did happen, was it civil war?

What gave rise to these stirring questions was a clear-cut controversy between Michigan and the U. S. over a radio broadcasting station. Governor Green stood on the Constitution and a State's police power. The Federal Radio Commission likewise stood on the Constitution and the Federal Government's power over interstate commerce, including radio. An important test case was in the making.

This year Michigan appropriated $60,000 to set up a broadcasting system for the State police. State-owned and operated, the central station was to be in East Lansing. The power: five kilowatts. The wavelength: 124 metres. Receiving sets were to be supplied all State-police stations, all sheriffs' office's. As a matter of comity Michigan officials had taken their broadcasting plans to Washington, asked the Radio Commission to issue forthwith a permit to erect the station, a license for its operation. The Commission had rejected Michigan's demand, temporized, set a hearing date in May. Chairman Robinson of the Commission politely explained that the U. S. radio law provides no special privileges for State broadcasting, that Michigan's petition would doubtless be denied.

Governor Green was incensed at this treatment of his State by the U. S. Boldly he proclaimed that Michigan, under its police power, would proceed with its Commission. He ordered his Bufeau of Public Safety to receive bids for the whole project. He announced: "Michigan will not delay. . . . Radio is a very important factor in apprehending criminals. ... It behooves those,in authority to provide all proved methods of catching crooks."

Alarmed at such defiance, the Radio Commission called on the Department of Justice. Its agents in Michigan were instructed to "arrest the proper persons"—meaning Governor Green—if the State should start to put up its radio station.

This threat of arrest riled Governor Green even more. Warned he: "Let 'em try to arrest us! We'll do some arresting ourselves ! If they come here interfering we'll throw 'em out of the State."

Then he issued another broadside against the Radio Commission:

"The Legislature has stipulated that a station be established. We expect to carry out its mandate. Michigan is simply asserting a fundamental principle of American government and if the Commission gets in the way, that's the Commission's fault, not ours. The police power, reserved to the States, is not subject to any limitation. If the Radio Commission believes it more important that the ether be filled with jazz music and advertisements than that criminals be apprehended and punished, that's the Commission's privilege. We don't think that way and we're not going to be controlled by anyone who does."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,787560,00.html#ixzz1ANzcfDW3

May 16, 1927 National Affairs: Michigan v. U. S. Married. Helen Nancy ("Peggy") Green, 19, daughter of Governor Fred Warren Green of Michigan, to Norval Tyrell, managing editor of the The Wolverine, Michigan College year hook; by elopement, at Bowling Green, Ohio. Governor Green telegraphed: "You surprised us a little. .

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,736714,00.html#ixzz1AO0Rs5tJ

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,738355,00.html

AERONAUTICS: Flights & Flyers: Dec. 23, 1929 Passenger. Fred Warren Green, Michigan's Governor, proudly held Ticket No. 100,000 for a flight from Detroit to Cleveland on the regular run of the Stout Air Lines. Last year he used ticket No. 50,000 on the same line.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,738355,00.html#ixzz1AO1LSM00

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,732533,00.html

Education, More Kudos June 24, 1929 University of Detroit Fred Warren Green, Michigan's Governor LL.D.

Read more:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,732533,00.html#ixzz1AO2HNbsM

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,787073,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,787073,00.html

National Affairs: Michigan's Vandenberg April 29, 1927 Editor Arthur Hendrick Vandenberg of the Grand Rapids Herald, 44-year-old Republican, Mason, Shriner, Elk, Woodman, was appointed Senator from Michigan last week to succeed Woodbridge N. Ferris, 75-year-old Democrat who died of pneumonia last fortnight. Mr. Vandenberg made the fifth journalist in the Upper House. Fellow Republican publishers to whom he can look from behind his horn-rimmed glasses for encouragement in his maiden speech are Cutting of New Mexico, Capper of Kansas, La Follette of Wisconsin. Senator-publisher Carter Glass of Virginia sits across the aisle among the Democrats.

Though he was a friend and admirer of Woodrow Wilson, Editor-Senator Vandenberg's Republicanism is thoroughgoing. The Herald which he has edited for 22 years is owned by onetime (1907-19) Senator William Alden Smith, oldtime G. O. P. stalwart. As an author, Mr. Vandenberg is best known for his Alexander Hamilton: The Greatest American.

In appointing Senator Vandenberg, Governor Fred W. Green of Michigan stressed the advantage of youth as a qualification for the rough-and-tumble of life in Washington committee rooms. This was interpreted as a gentle explanation of why Joseph Warren Fordney, onetime (1899-1923) Michigan Representative, had been passed by. Mr. Fordney, whose massive girth and demeanor are well suited to his reputation as an Old Guardsman, is 74 years old.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,787073,00.html#ixzz1AO5GudGN

Unfortunately, not of this sheds any light on his being a coach or not.

Put it in the articles (or not) as you will. Frankly, I don't much care about the governor. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

More stuff to be added

Sobel, Robert, and John Raimo, eds. Biographical Directory of the Governors of the United States, 1789-1978, Vol. 2, Westport, Conn.; Meckler Books, 1978. 4 vols.:

FRED W. GREEN, the thirty-first governor of Michigan, was born in Manistee, Michigan on October 20, 1871. His education was attained at Michigan State Normal School, where he graduated in 1893, and at the University of Michigan, where he earned a law degree in 1898. During the Spanish American War, Green served in the 31st Michigan Volunteer Infantry as a first lieutenant and later was promoted to battalion adjutant. After his military service, he established a legal career, serving as the city attorney of Ypsilanti, as well as serving as the attorney for the Ypsilanti Reed Furniture Company, a business he later became owner of. Green entered politics in 1913, serving as the mayor of Ionia, a position he held until 1916. He also served as the treasurer of the Michigan Republican Party from 1915 to 1919. Green next secured the Republican gubernatorial nomination, and was elected governor by a popular vote on November 2, 1926. He was reelected to a second term in 1928. During his tenure, a comprehensive budget system was initiated; a new code of criminal practices was authorized; appropriations were secured for a state hospital building program; seven new state parks were created; and a workmen's compensation law was improved. After completing his term, Green left office on January 1, 1931. He continued to stay politically active, serving as a delegate to the 1932 Republican National Convention. Governor Fred W. Green passed away on November 30, 1936, and was buried in the Highland Park Cemetery in Ionia, Michigan.

Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 19:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Fred Green (American football) be merged into Fred Green (this article). I think that they are the same person but want to make sure and would appreciate some help with the research.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:58, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I am almost positive these are 2 separate people with the same name. --Kumioko (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

My concern is this: both were involved at Michigan State Normal in the 1890s--the governor graduated in 1893, the coach was there for the 1896 season. Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor are both in Washtenaw County so it's not unreasonable to think that he might have attended Michigan Law School and coached football that same year at another school.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Both have the same middle inital: "W".--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:20, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

These don't look like the same person to me. While they may share one educational credential, their career path does not track. One was a Lawyer, Mayor and two time Governor. The other was a football coach. We have no biographical information on the coach. The National Governors conference biography absolutely does not mention coaching. The burden of proof on this is on the proponent of merger. Mere geographical coincidence does not cut it -- Ipse dixit? If they are not the same person, merger would be misleading and wrong. Therefore, I OPPOSE merger. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:40, 7 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

It's not unreasonable to suspect that these might be one and the same -- but it would be speculation assert this as a fact without some verifiable reference. Surely there's a bio of the governor somewhere than might mention if he did a coaching stint in Ypsilanti. older ≠ wiser 15:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Update EMU Media Guide shows someone named "Fred W. Green" earned a varsity letter in 1895. It wasn't uncommon for teams to use "ringers" or players that weren't actively enrolled as students at the time. Governor Green, I believe, was working as a reporter in Ypsilanti at the time. I agree we need to verify this, but it's looking like they are the same person to me, and he wouldn't have been the only one-year football coach to later become governor (Andrew Frank Schoeppel).--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I think there is a very good chance these are the same person. The "career path" argument above is not a good one. Coaching football really wasn't a career path in the late 1800s. Most college football coaches were students, professors, or recent graduates with some playing experience who held the post for not more than a season or two. Take a look guys like Evans Woollen, Henry Luke Bolley, or Charles E. Coates, each of whom is probably more notable for their work outside of football. Or better yet, take a look at Green's successor at Michigan State Normal, A. Bird Glaspie. Jweiss11 (talk)

All of this sounds like speculation based upon four facts: (1) shared first name, last name and middle initial; (2) attendance in the same decade (but not the same time) at Michigan Normal; and (3) geographic proximity of the University of Michigan (where the governor attended law school.

We have one good source, the National Governor's Conference biography, that details who the governor was, and does not mention coaching.

So far as I know, the only other authoritative source on the governor is:

• Sobel, Robert; Raimo, John eds. (1978). Biographical Directory of the Governors of the United States, 1789-1978. Vol. 2. Westport, Connecticut: Meckler Books. p. 1123. ISBN 0930466012. {{cite book}}: |first2= has generic name (help)

Nobody has read that who is participating in this discussion, so far as I can tell. Unfortunately, the Google book link says that there is one page that concerns the governor, and that page is not part of the preview.

Presumably there are obituaries of the governor in the Lansing State Journal, the Detroit News, Traverse City Record-Eagle, Grand Rapids Press, the New York Times, and other Michigan newspapers. This would require getting access to their archives or a trip to the library, I suppose.

We know that the governor's papers are at the Bentley Historical Library.

Presumably there is an obituary of the coach somewhere. Or Eastern Michigan University has a record somewhere although that sounds like WP:NOR.

We have zero sources giving us any detail on the biography of the coach. We have no proof of his middle name, date of birth, anything other than a won/lost record. We have evidence that they did not attend Michigan Normal at the same time.

The burden of proof is on the proponent of merger.

Your personal feelings don't cut it. I just consulted a ouija board and did flipism by a coin flip, and they both agreed that they are not the same. WP:NOR; WP:Reliable. There is nothing here yet.

Actually, I didn't do those things, but they are just as reliable as 'your gut'.

I OPPOSE merger for the reasons indicated. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

7&6=thirteen, first I don't appreciate my rational reasoning being compared to pseudoscience. Second, I'm always annoyed when people find the need to weigh in on a matter that by their own admission, they "don't care" about. More importantly, third, I disagree that the burden proof swings one away or another on this issue. Which is worse, a conflation or a content fork? I'm not sure. Fourth, a lot of people here are simply lacking an appreciation for what it meant to be a college football coach or player in in the 1890s and are applying modern conceptions of those roles in this discussion. For example, take a look at Horace Greely Prettyman, who played for the Michigan Wolverines in eight different seasons between 1882 and 1890..."Prettyman worked as a traveling salesman from 1886–1887, general manager of Bulles & Co. (an Ann Arbor manufacturer of gelatin capsules) in 1888, and a real estate agent and hotel manager starting in 1889.[1] Though he was no longer a student, college football eligibility standards were loose, and Prettyman returned to play three more years for Michigan, as the team's center in 1888,[20] and as a tackle in 1889 and 1890." Again this is not evidence that Green the governor is Green the football player-coach, but it is evidence that certain arguments should be thrown out here. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Another possible source of obituaries,etc. might be Newspaper archive which purports to be the largest soure for this kind of material. Requires payment. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:21, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

Finally, here is all the links from the Political Graveyard for Fred W. Green (the link is in our article):

1. Green, Fred — of Sallisaw, Sequoyah County, Okla. Democrat. Delegate to Democratic National Convention from Oklahoma, 1952. Still living as of 1952.
2. Green, Mrs. Fred W. — of Ionia, Ionia County, Mich. Republican. Candidate for Presidential Elector for Michigan, 1944. Female. Still living as of 1944.
3. Green, Fred Warren (1871-1936) — also known as Fred W. Green — of Ionia, Ionia County, Mich. Born in Manistee, Manistee County, Mich., October 19, 1871. Republican. Served in the U.S. Army during the Spanish-American War; delegate to Republican National Convention from Michigan, 1912, 1920, 1928, 1932, 1936; mayor of Ionia, Mich., 1913-22; treasurer of Michigan Republican Party, 1915-19; Governor of Michigan, 1927-30. Presbyterian. Member, Freemasons; Elks; Rotary. Died, following a heart attack, at Munising Hospital, Munising, Alger County, Mich., November 30, 1936. Entombed in mausoleum at Highland Park Cemetery, Ionia, Mich.

   * Cross-reference: Howard C. Lawrence
   * See also: National Governors Association biography.

1. Green, Frederick E. — of Littleton, Grafton County, N.H. Delegate to New Hampshire state constitutional convention from Littleton, 1948. Still living as of 1948.
2. Green, Frederick William (1816-1879) — of Tiffin, Seneca County, Ohio; Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Born in Fredericktown (now Frederick), Frederick County, Md., February 18, 1816. Democrat. Lawyer; U.S. Representative from Ohio, 1851-55 (6th District 1851-53, 9th District 1853-55). Editor of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, 1866-74. Died in Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Ohio, June 18, 1879. Interment at Woodland Cemetery, Cleveland, Ohio.

   * See also: congressional biography; Govtrack.us page.

7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:04, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

OPPOSE for lack of hard evidence. The Governor graduated from Michigan State Normal School before the football player earned a varsity letter there. A ringer wouldn't earn a letter. The NY Times obit for the gov. makes no mention of football. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 16:56, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Best evidence yet in support of merger

In the 1898 Michiganesian, U of Michigan's yearbook, in the Department of Law is listed "Fred Warren Green...Ypsilanti...Prepared at Michigan State Normal School. Expected location, Ypsilanti...Class Athletic Manager." See: [1] Jweiss11 (talk) 18:22, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Isn't that an indirect statement that he wasn't the "Coach". If he had been, wouldn't he have mentioned it at the time, when he recollection was fresh. There is a legal principle Expresio unio est esclusio alterius. that applies to contract interpretation, but it would to apply here too. The expression of one thing is the exclusion of the other. It is common sense. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

This means he was the class athletic manager at the University of Michigan in the 1897-1898 school year. It suggests he had some sort of administrative role for organizing sports for students at Michigan. He was certainly not the football coach at Michigan that year. Gustave Ferbert was. How does being the athletic manager at the University of Michigan in the 1897-1898 exclude one from having been a football player-coach at Michigan State Normal College two years before? What this does establish is that Fred Warren Green, the future governor of Michigan, was involved in athletics management on the university level. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Outsider opinion

Full disclosure: I don't have a horse in this race. My opinion, based on this discussion thread, is that these articles in question should remain separate. However, I do think the soft evidence put forth by User:PaulmcDonald, to me, is too compelling to dismiss. All of those temporal-spacial and name coincidences are far too one-in-a-million to make me believe it is two different people. Therefore, as a settlement between sides, here is my proposal:

• Keep articles separate. However, put very obvious hatnotes at the top of each article, guiding the readers that these two people may be one in the same, and that it was never full resolved whether they were or weren't. It is then up to the reader, not us, to use their own discretion whether they want to consider them as the same person. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

So we are clear, I am not inalterably opposed to merging the articles. I just want to be sure that these are one and the same. I laid out a 'crumb trail' in the debate and in the article, as there should be proof that this is the same guy. I suggest that someone look at the Detroit Free Press and Michigan Daily articles about the opening of the Michigan Stadium. If the Guv was a coach, it should be mentioned somewhere in the course of those proceedings. Likewise, the governors' book should have it in his bio. In the meantime, hatnotes are fine. Even an 'explanation of doubt' is fine with me. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

Why the rush to a "settlement"? Leave the merger proposal in place while folks do some research. For weeks if need be. That's sufficient notice to anyone looking at these (rather obscure) entries.

First do no harm. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 19:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

There's also a Fred Green at Find a Grave, born 1875 died 1957. Buried in Cottle Cemetery, Mackinac County, MI. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 19:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's the Find a Grave listing for Fred Warren Green (1871-1936): [2]. Where is the one for (1875-1957)? Jweiss11 (talk) 20:23, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I gave you all you need to search and all you'll learn: Fred Green, Michigan, 1875, 1957, Cottle Cemetery. Trouble searching? Here

Also, here's an interesting snippet from Google Books:

Footnotes in History: A collection of stories on local history ... (2003)

"He coached the football team for two years, and in 1925 led the team in its first undefeated season. Brown was appointed Dean of Men in 1927. At the request of Michigan Governor, and Normal alumni, Fred Green, Brown became chairman of..."

Given the little we have and the context, it's interesting that Fred Green is identified as Gov and Normal alum but not a former footballer himself. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Another interesting source on Google Books: The Normal News 1895, interesting how little is said about athletics. I don't see a Fred Green other than the Fred W. Green at the Law School. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 00:22, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Page 19 describes in the left column Fred W. Green entering U of M Law school and in the right column mentions Fred Green being elected as football manager. Still not conclusive, but I think there is a very good likelihood that there is only one person. older ≠ wiser 02:03, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Note that we have to be careful with page numbers in this publication -- they repeat and change depending on your search criteria! The page 19 above is Oct 1895 p. 7. But on Sept 1895 p. 6 of the Normal News we see a clear distinction between coach and management: "Mr. Center, who was on the U. of M. team last year, has been engaged to "coach" the foot-ball eleven. Under the efficient management of Mr. Barrows, the indications are that we now have the best team the N.A.A. ever put in the field." It's Barrows whom Fred Green replaces in the management role, not as coach. The quotes around the word "coach" in the original are odd. Not sure what to make of that.

For general amusement: "The Normals lost the foot-ball game played with the U. of M. reserves , October 12; score 10 to 0. The result is partially accounted for by the fact that the U. of M. team is exceptionately [sic] heavy, and that three of our best men refused to play so that their places had to be fill[ed] by members of the second team." Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

• I think it's likely that these are the same person, but until we can move from guessing to knowing, the articles should remain separate, with the merge hatnotes in place. It's not inconceivable that he played for Normal while a student at UM; athletics at Normal at the time seems to have been primarily a student-run affair. It's also quite possible that he coached Normal while a student at UM, this is documented in several other cases (for example, Henry Schulte coached football, baseball, and track at MSNC beginning in his senior year at UM). As to the coach/manager issue, terms seem to be vague and somewhat interchangeable. The navbox {{Eastern Michigan Eagles football coach navbox}} lists the "head coaches" and years as listed in the 2010 EMU football media guide. For the earliest several "head coaches", the contemporary accounts generally refer to them as "manager", and they seem to have primarily dealt with scheduling and facilities issues, while the "captain" seems to have taken what we normally think of as a coaching role. In many cases, both were either current students (and players) or just graduated. cmadler (talk) 14:05, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

At this point, based on the blurb I pulled from the 1898 yearbook, I find it overwhelming likely that Fred W. Green who played football at Michigan State Normal in 1895 and coached the team in 1896 is the same person as Fred Warren Green who 1) graduated from Michigan State Normal in 1893, 2) graduated from the University of Michigan in 1898 with a law degree and was the class athletic manager at Michigan during the 1897-1898 school year, and 3) went on to become the Governor of Michigan in 1927. We should not be surprised that no mention of Green's football playing and coaching is made in his obits or news stories circa the time he was governor. By that time, those details were insignificant in the context of his Green's life, and journalists at the time, in the 1920s and 1930s, may have simply been unaware about his involvement in football at Michigan State Normal; how easily could they have gotten their hands on a Michigan State Normal football media guide, if such a thing even existed then? Given the fact that there was no strict enforcement of eligibility rules in those days, it's entirely possible that someone who graduated from a school in 1893 could play on their football team in 1895. Also, we need to keep in mind the nature of a college football coach in the 1890s at most schools. Coaching the football team was likely an administrative role that was un-paid or paid nominally, not unlike the role Fred Warren Green served as class athletic manager at Michigan. By the 1890s, football coaching at the University of Michigan was indeed moving toward a more professional state, which it fully realized with the hiring of Fielding Yost in 1901. The Michigan program, along with that of the University of Chicago starting in 1892 with Amos Alonzo Stagg, pretty much pioneered big-time college football in the Midwest. The first two guys to hold the head football coaching position at Michigan State Normal for more than two seasons were Clayton Teetzel (1900–1902) and Henry Schulte (1906–1908), both of whom played at Michigan, Schulte for Yost from 1903 to 1905. So, I propose that we move ahead with the merger, 7&6=thirteen's eloquent and wholly inapt Latin phrases notwithstanding, and add any needed notes about the tenuousness of the connections. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:16, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, there's no hurry. (1) It's noteworthy that there's no mention of football in the biographical sketch of the future Governor that appeared in 1900 -- when he was not yet 30! See William Livingstone, Livingstone's history of the Republican party... (1900) p. 200. (2) Hunting and fishing were his passions and I've seen golf mentioned, no team sport. (3) The quote in the text about the dedication of the football stadium doesn't mention that Gov. Green had anything to do with football in his past, though it would be a great detail to include there, if true. (4) There are other works to be consulted. Governors of the territory and state of Michigan (Michigan Historical Commission, 1928): "FRED W. GREEN was born in Manistee, Michigan, October 20, 1872. A year later he removed with his parents to Cadillac, where he was educated in the schools of that city, graduating from High School in 1890. His college education was..." And Willah Weddon, Michigan governors: their life stories (1994). Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:41, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

It's also noteworthy that there's no mention of his role as class athletic manager at Michigan, something that, at the time, may have been deemed no more significant than being a football player/coach at Michigan St. Normal. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:34, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Further evidence there's only one Fred W. Green under discussion

Here's further evidence that we're dealing with the same guy. The former governor Fred W. Green (an 1893 graduate of Michigan Normal and the only Michigan Normal graduate with that name) was also active in athletic administration while a student at Michigan Normal. The 1893 Michigan Normal yearbook (called The Aurora) at page 84 indicates Fred Green was the director of the MIAA. See link. That means he was Michigan Normal's delegate to the Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association, an intercollegiate athletic conference that Michigan Normal joined in 1892. The 1894 Michigan Normal yearbook seals the deal in my opinion. At page 115, it notes that Green was Michigan Normal's first delegate to the MIAA and praises Green for his ongoing efforts with the MIAA. At page 112, it also identifies Fred Green as the school's "Manager of Foot Ball" and "Director of Sports." See link. In 1896, Green then led Michigan Normal to the MIAA football championship -- unfortunately I can't find the 1896-1897 yearbook online. Even without the 1897 yearbook, the 1893 and 1894 entries provide the link that the future governor who graduated from Michigan Normal in 1893 began his involvement with Michigan Normal athletics as its MIAA delegate in the 1892-1893 academic year and continued being active in the school's athletic programs after he graduated. Cbl62 (talk) 07:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

If someone could lay hands on the Michigan Normal newspaper or yearbook for the 1896-1897 academic year, those sources would likely put things to rest beyond any doubt. The Ypsilanti newspaper for that year (called the Ypsilantian) would be another resource. Cbl62 (talk) 07:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm fully compelled. Merger executed. Jweiss11 (talk) 11:21, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, compare the photo on page 89 of the yearbook. It doesn't list any names, but to my untrained eye the guy in the bottom right sure looks like Green in the photos we have of the gov.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I've uploaded this photo here: File:1892 Michigan State Normal football team.png. Jweiss11 (talk) 14:46, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

NY Times obituary

Someone was diligent enough to put in

• New York Times: "Fred W. Green, 64, of Michigan, Dead," November 30, 1936, accessed January 8, 2011

Unfortunately, this is only an abstract. If someone has access, and can install a perma-link, that would help. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:20, 9 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

This is the link to the article. If you can provide an example of where this has been done, I'll give it a shot. But I don't believe there is any permalink-style path to archived NYTimes articles. The link to the abstract is something everyone can reach and includes a way to get to the article if you are authorized to access it. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I am reasonably certain that you can do this with current articles. I have never done it with archived articles, so I can't help. The NYT gets revenue from the articles. I know that you can access really old (maybe pre-1923?) articles, and don't have this problem. I've done that in the past. Sorry. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC) Stan

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External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Fred W. Green. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100820081146/http://bentley.umich.edu/research/guides/politics/governors/gov_search.php?sort=collection to http://bentley.umich.edu/research/guides/politics/governors/gov_search.php?sort=collection

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)