Talk:Franz Barten

This page was proposed for deletion by K.e.coffman (talk · contribs) on 14 October 2017 with the comment:
Reverted to revision 756561368 by K.e.coffman (talk): Restore redirect, see TP. (TW)
It was contested by Pudeo (talk · contribs) on 2019-08-17 with the comment:
Reverted to revision 802716158 by Primefac (talk): Notable topic, use AfD if disagree (TW)

This page was proposed for deletion by K.e.coffman (talk · contribs) on 25 December 2016 with the comment:
#REDIRECT List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (Ba–Bm) -- pls see Talk
It was contested by Icewhiz (talk · contribs) on 2017-04-23 with the comment:
Undid revision 756561368 by K.e.coffman (talk) notable ace

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A fact from Franz Barten appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 May 2008, and was viewed approximately 4,300 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that World War II flying ace Franz Barten is credited for shooting down a total of 55 enemy aircraft?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/May.

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Assessment review

I was torn between start and B-class for this, since I understand there's not a lot of info out there, but I just didn't feel that it was quite complete enough to be considered such. If you work like to ask a MILHIST member for a review/second opinion then by all means go ahead, this is start by wpbio standards though. Wizardman 03:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shot in his parachute

Is this documented? He could have been shot prior to exiting the aircraft. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.96.222 (talk) 00:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is supported by this reference. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 02:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That website has no citations. That does not constitute documentation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.96.222 (talk) 02:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Name of the Country

The name of the country was Germany. He was born in 1912, decades before Hitler came to power. "Nazi" is a characteristic, the name of a political party in power at a given time. You don't call the United States "Republican United States" just because the current president is a Republican. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.91.143 (talk) 04:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, he was a fighter ace from the Nazi regime and as far as I know that nation is known as Nazi Germany. The United States did not have regime changes like Germany, what happens in the US is change of political party in power within a permanent democratic system. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 04:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, the name of the country was Deutsches Reich (German Reich), not Nazi Germany (which is just an English term to describe the country at a particular period). There is no mention in the article about whether he was a Nazi himself. Not every German belonged to the party and fighting for your country is not necessarily a sign of political affiliation. 142.162.91.143 (talk) 05:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you see the other fighter ace articles, all mention the country name Nazi Germany, not Germany. No matter if he was member or Nazi party or not, he fought for the Nazi Germany. Also the flag of Nazi Germany was not same as Germany. Mentioning the country as Germany will be inaccurate. We do not mention any Soviet military personnel as form Russia, but we mention as from the Soviet Union. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 05:25, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that other articles mention it does not make it correct. The article on Erwin Rommel identifies him as German. Soviet Union was the proper name of the country in the 1940's. Note how you don't call Russian military personnel as belonging to "Communist Russia". The political orientation of the country is different from its actual name and the proper term for the nationality of its citizens. 142.162.91.143 (talk) 05:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then the name should be changed to Third Reich because it is the appropriate name. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 05:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term Third Reich is similar to Nazi Germany. Once more, it is not the official name of the country for the period in question but a term used in the English-speaking world to describe Germany from 1933 to 1945. I can see the problem with using the term "Germany" next to the Nazi flag symbol and I suppose that we should change that to something more appropriate. But Franz Barten was simply a German and attaching political terms next to his nationality and country of origin would misrepresent reality.142.162.91.143 (talk) 05:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then the name should be changed to Deutsches Reich and Großdeutsches Reich. Both should be mentioned because after 1943, it became known as Großdeutsches Reich and he served after 1943 also. These are the official names and will be appropriate. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that, as an introductory sentence, it is best to simply say Germany at the beginning of the article. This is the term used today to describe the country and people without a detailed knowledge of German history will immediately understand what it is we are referring to. Deutsches Reich and Großdeutsches Reich may be more correct but would confuse the non-expert. Alternatively (and this would solve most of our problems) we can say that he was a "German World War II fighter ace". I leave it up to you and I am off to bed.142.162.91.143 (talk) 06:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will rename it to Deutsches Reich and Großdeutsches Reich. Wikipedia is supposed to present factually correct information, not what people will understand or not. Those who are not expert can click the links to know what is meant by Deutsches Reich and Großdeutsches Reich. However I am making the change only in the infobox and leaving the name in the introductory paragraph as Germany. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

Does not meet WP:SOLDIER & sig RS coverage not found link. No de.Wiki article.

Please also see a note at MilHist Talk Archives for background behind the redirect.

K.e.coffman (talk) 04:30, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notable due to his status as a Flying ace with a high claimed kills counts. As you can see in List of World War II flying aces - flyers with a much smaller kill count have articles - with the notability being their kill count and nothing else. Being an aerial ace (with a significant count for a particular conflict - 5 would be borderline for WWII, but would confer significance in any other conflict - mid-double digits and up for WWII is clearly significant). notable per SOLDIER: " Played an important role in a significant military event such as a major battle or campaign" - kill counts of these magnitude are a significant material and personnel (aviation - expensive to train) advantage. Soviets were competitive in the air from the end of 1942 and onward - and in event taking out a regiment sized enemy force - Aviation regiment (Soviet Union) single handed is significant regardless of opposition quality.Icewhiz (talk) 10:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect

Restoring the redirect. Successful completion of missions (sorties flown, # of enemy aircraft shot down, etc) is not part of SOLDIER. A MilHist RfC on this topic has failed to gain consensus in May of 2017:

MilHist:RfC on the notability of flying aces.

For a relevant AfD, please see:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fritz Lüddecke, which closed as "Delete" in September 2017.

Please also see the discussion with the editor who had earlier objected to the redirect: Link. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:24, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]