Talk:Franklin D. Miller

unit affiliation?

For purposes of this wikipedia article, would Miller's unit affiliation be given as 5th Special Forces Group or MACV-SOG? I've added material to the main body of the article, including reference citations and a note on MACV-SOG, but would appreciate some feedback as to how best to represent Miller's assignment to this highly-secretive task force. Azx2 19:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Sergeant Roy E. "the Bummer" Bumgarner vs. Staff Sergeant Bumstaten

In Miller's memoirs, he clearly states that he served in 1st Cavalry Division under a "Staff Sergeant Bumstaten" whose nickname was "the Bummer" (and whose troops referred to him as "Genghis Khan") (Miller p. 10). However, surely Miller must be referring to the notorious convicted war criminal Sergeant Roy E. "the Bummer" Bumgarner (discussed in this article excerpted below, and many others: http://hnn.us/articles/1802.html)?

Sam Ybarra's notorious reputation may well pale in comparison to that of Sergeant Roy E. "the Bummer" Bumgarner, a soldier who served with the 1st Cavalry Division and later the 173d Airborne Brigade. According to a former commander, "the Bummer" was rumored to have "personally killed over 1,500 people" during a forty-two week stretch in Vietnam. Even if the number was exaggerated, clues on how Bumgarner may have obtained high "body counts" came to light in the course of an Army criminal investigation of an incident that took place on February 25, 1969. According to investigation documents, Bumgarner and a subordinate rounded up three civilians found working in a rice paddy, marched them to a secluded area and murdered them. "The Bummer" then arranged the bodies on the ground with their heads together and a grenade was exploded next to them in an attempt to cover-up their crime. Assorted weapons were then planted near the mutilated corpses to make them appear to have been enemy troops.

During an Army criminal investigation of the incident, men in Bumgarner's unit told investigators that they had heard rumors of the sergeant carrying out similar acts in the past. Said one soldier in a sworn statement to Army investigators:

"I've heard of Bumgarner doing it before -- planting weapons on bodies when there is doubt as to their military status. I've heard quite a few rumors about Bumgarner killing unarmed people. Only a couple weeks ago I heard that Bumgarner had killed a Vietnamese girl and two younger kids (boys), who didn't have any weapons."

Unlike Sam Ybarra, who had been discharged from the military by the time the allegations against him came to light and then refused to cooperate with investigators, "the Bummer" was charged with premeditated murder and tried by general court martial. He was convicted only of manslaughter and his punishment consisted merely of a demotion in rank and a fine of $97 a month for six months. Moreover, after six months, Bumgarner promptly re-enlisted in the Army. His first and only choice of assignments -- Vietnam. Records indicate he got his wish!

Anyone have any insight to this? No disrespect to Miller or anything like that, just wondering if his identification of Bumgarner as "Bumstaten" was intentional or a simple mistake? Azx2 19:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

oops - just answered my own question by reading the full NY Times obit:

The image of his mentor from his days in the First Cavalry Division -- Sgt. Roy Bumgarner, whom he regarded as a Superman soldier -- appeared to him.

As Sergeant Miller remembered, Sergeant Bumgarner was right there, and he said, 'Calm down, otherwise you'll scare yourself into shock.' I tried to calm down and think about what I had to do.

Bummmmmer...Azx2 20:12, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

IP's personal account

IP editor added this personal addition. Preserving in the talk page as it's not written in third person and I can't attribute it. --DHeyward (talk) 06:01, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

SSG Miller served in Company B, 3rd Battalion (Airborne) 325th Infantry, 2nd Brigade, 82d Airborne Division, too. He was in the 3rd platoon, and I was in the 1st platoon. Frank or Sergeant Miller was what we called him, and he was there for most of 1975. At the time of his service, Special Forces qualification was a school, and Frank did not attend the qualifying course at Bragg. That was noted by the SF-qualified folks, and was a petty argument. Frank was superb in the field while disdainful of garrison duties. He let us know that many of the infantry training and tactics manuals were written by folks who did not ever get near a battlefield, and to disregard most of what then passed as Army training. He emphasized organic mortar training, marksmanship, field improvisation, tracking, land navigation and map reading, and the skills an infantryman needs to hope to survive the battlefield. Frank was "fired" in late 1975 by the battalion CSM. We called the CSM "Hollywood." He wore private, and beyond Army regulation, sunglasses, and it was obvious to us that the CSM wasn't the real deal. Frank was, and he left the airborne infantry to join an explosive ordnance disposal unit on Bragg. --132.3.45.83

Almost all American forces left Vietnam in 1973. There wouldn't be large conventional units in 1975.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 05:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)