Talk:Francisco Menéndez (Black soldier)

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I think this has already been mentioned, but Francisco was black, or African, or African-American if you will, but he was not a creole, that is a big mistake. Creole was the name given to children of two white Europeans that were born in America, or that was the case in Spanish areas at least. I almost tried to start an article about him because I couldn't find him anywhere. Francisco Menéndez (captain) would be more fitting for his article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antonionguerra (talk • contribs) 11:17, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

According to the Spanish Academy dictionary (http://www.rae.es) criollo does apply to blacks born in America, not just whites.deisenbe (talk) 12:38, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

In contemporary American English usage, creole may imply some black ancestry, but I've never heard or seen it applied to someone of primarily African ancestry. In Spanish colonial usage, criollo meant someone of European ancestry born in the Americas. See Casta. Nobody in Spanish Florida would have called this man a criollo. I'm not sure what the disambiguation for this article should be, but I don't think it should be "creole". - Donald Albury 13:56, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Thinking about this some more, if "creole" is being used here with the meaning of having African ancestry, then we are disambiguating this article on the basis of his race, which I find highly inappropriate. We definitely need to find another term to use. - Donald Albury 14:06, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Some Edits

It is important to acknowledge that he was subjected to enslavement by the British, a claim substantiated by the provided references. I kindly request that further reversions of this content be avoided, as it has escalated into an edit war. Should you wish to propose any modifications, please ensure that you provide corresponding references to support your claims, and refrain from repeatedly reverting my contributions. I’d appreciate it if you could take a moment to look over the references I’m sharing, starting with this one and this one ! Your insights would mean a lot. 194.38.172.194 (talk) 09:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It is not the best look when told not to edit war you undo the next edit (edit warring) and then while edit warring tell others not to edit war.

In your recent edits you have introduced "being purchased by British and shipped..." and further below "...captured and sold by british slave traders...", both of which contain grammar errors.

I haven't looked at your source, it is paywalled I think. Perhaps you could provide direct quotes here from the sources for clarity.

I am not sure why you assert that "it is important to acknowledge that he was subjected to enslavement by the British", but if the sources reflect that then Wikipedia will too. Commander Keane (talk) 09:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I have not yet reviewed all of your edits, but I do think it is incorrect to call Menendez "Spanish". He became a resident in a Spanish colony, but, just as we do not call the Native Americans living in Florida at the time "Spanish", we should not do so with Menendez. Donald Albury 15:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

He was liberated by the Spanish, embraced Christianity (page 167), and eventually an official captain in the Spanish military forces. What additional information would you need to officially recognize him as Spanish? Perhaps a copy of his passport? He was even evacuated to Cuba by the crown194.38.172.194 (talk) 16:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore if we apply your reasoning consistently, we might have to reconsider referring to the indigenous peoples living in the United States or Canada as Americans or Canadians. I respectfully disagree with your argument and believe there is more nuance to this discussion. 194.38.172.194 (talk) 16:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I've fully protected this page for a day to stop the ongoing edit war. I hope to see fruitful discussion take place on the talk page and some progress toward consensus. @194.38.172.194: and @DonBeroni: you've both flown way past WP:3RR, but I'm holding off on blocks for now. Goodnightmush^Talk 17:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Goodnight you can at least block it with my edit and not his. At least I am giving references. He is not doing anything but undoing over and over 194.230.146.107 (talk) 17:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the existing wording is a fair compromise: "who served the Spanish Empire in Florida". I think calling him Spanish in Wikivoice is WP:OR unless that's what RSes consistently say. If they say "he served the Spanish" or "he was freed by the Spanish", that isn't the same as saying "he was Spanish". However, if there is evidence of RSes consistently describing him in this way as per WP:DEFINING, WP:VERIFIABLE and WP:NOTABLE, then we can call him Spanish. So please provide any RSes to back that up here, so we can reach a consensus. Lewisguile (talk) 11:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I have addressed the issue of British enslavement in the other thread, BTW. Lewisguile (talk) 11:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

British/European slave owners

I note that this has been an area for contention in the recent edits, so I've tried to get to the bottom of it. Looking at the following source, it seems as though Francisco Menéndez was initially enslaved by the British, and then re-enslaved by the Spanish (when the British sold him and others back to the Spanish):

Landers, Jane (1988). Black Society in Spanish St. Augustine, 1784-1821. pp. 16–18. Available from ProQuest One Academic. Retrieved from https://www.proquest.com/dissertations-theses/black-society-spanish-st-augustine-1784-1821/docview/303733553/se-2

He was eventually freed on the condition that he and other freed slaves fight on behalf of Spain, until their "last drop of blood". This took some time, since the Spanish didn't want to give up their slaves, so Menéndez had to petition Governor Montiano and the bishop of Cuba.

This source by the same author also seems to back this up: Landers, Jane. Black Society in Spanish Florida. University of Illinois Press, 1999. pp. 39–41.

And here: Landers, Jane. "Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose". A Question of Manhood, Volume 1: A Reader in U.S. Black Men's History and Masculinity, "Manhood Rights": The Construction of Black Male History and Manhood, 1750-1870. (1999). United States: Indiana University Press. pp.91–9.

And here: Landers, Jane. "The Atlantic Transformations of Francisco Menéndez". Biography and the Black Atlantic. United States: University of Pennsylvania Press, Incorporated, 2014. pp.217–222.

And this one (by someone else): Berlin, Ira. "The Origins of African-American Society". In Scott, Julius S. & Dubois, Laurent (eds.). Origins of the Black Atlantic. Taylor & Francis, 2013. pp. 137–9.

I would suggest the lede keep the wording about "European enslavers" for brevity, but we can outline this series of events in more detail in the body of the article. Lewisguile (talk) 10:23, 9 November 2024 (UTC)