Talk:Frano Getaldić-Gundulić

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i´m searching for the date of death of the Francesco (Frano)sister , Maria Gondola (Ghetaldi-Gondola), who born in Ragusa, 10.7.1837???. Ragusino

Not part of Serb movement

Judging by the surname and how they wrote their surname on their heraldic shield and on their properties, I would say that the Gondola-Ghetaldi family members considered themselves native Dalmatians, that is, Romance people. That then, perhaps, in order not to appreciate the nascent Croatian nationalist movement, they may have been seen, by some, as Serbs, without them being or feeling as such. They felt just DALMATIAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.54.31.199 (talk) 14:32, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

From what he says, he saw himself as Ragusan. I know Serbs consider him and many other people to be Serbs, but I don't see convincing evidence. Plus, what is the point of putting the (disputed) fact that he was part of the "Serb Catholic movement" in the lede? It seems it is a ploy to get the word "Serb" in the article as much as possible. Why, I can only surmise. --Jesuislafete (talk) 02:59, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

FYI, south of Dalmatia had somewhat of a Serb identity for centuries, from the southern part of modern-day Croatia all the way to Omiš and further. Many sources claim that Cetina river was the border of Serbs and Croats in those early centuries. Religious organisations played the key role in the process of identity building in the Balkans. Those are cold facts and they are relevant. Your "views" on convinsing evidence are not that relevant. There is an official way to challenge sources. And the sources speak for themself. More could be provided but that would be a ref. overkill. It is quite possible for a person to have a dual identity Ragusan/Serb (for Medo Pucić that was the same thing, for example). It is also quite possible for a person to have a fluid identity, like Ignjat Job and his family.

No, it is not. I can see that you do not assume good faith. The idea here is to make stable NPOV versions with source. Otherwise the project would be turned in another Ustašopedija, like hr.wiki. Several editors here, including myself, have a mission not to allow that to happen; and you can make random interpretations of that noble idea as much as you like. :) cheers Sadko (talk) 10:12, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't see that sources are speak[ing] for themself. None of the sources you introduced explicitly call him "Serb-Catholic", some do not even mention him. Vanjagenije (talk) 17:22, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, they do. He is listed as one of many members of Serb-Catholic movement. You should read better. Sadko (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Please, cite exact sentence and page number. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:12, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Please stick to the topic and stop veering off nationalistic tangents. I already know you hate Croatia(ns) you don't need to mention it every time.

I have read your sources and do not see anywhere where he viewed himself as a Serb or was a Serb nationlist. Some don't even support your claim. Regardless of the fact that he was supported by local Serb Catholics in the elections and had political leverage, it does not mean he was one, as he himself wrote that he "wasn't Croatian, Serbian or Italian in his ethnic affiliation, rather a Ragusan (Raguseo)". --Jesuislafete (talk) 03:02, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

@Jesuislafete: No one mentioned hating anyone here. Please, do not make wp:personal attacks. Accusing others of "hate" is pure personal attack. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:04, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

1) Prof. Irena Arsić does not say the thing directly but her writing is within the context. 2) Dr Milorad Vukanović clearly says that members of Gundulić family and other noble families were Serb Catholics. 3) Per source - Tolja states, according to the families, Catholic Serbs from Dubrovnik who presented nobility: Bona (Bunić): Luko, Mavro, Jozo, Miho, Nikola, Ljubica; Kaboga (Kabužić) Maroje, Getaldi Ivan; Đorđi (Đurđević) Marinko; Gradi (Gradić): Nikša Matov, Baldo; Goce Baselji (Gučetić Baselji): Melko, Melko jr., Luko, Baldo; Frano Gundulić; Ohmučević Bizaro Lujo and Elena; Pucić: Medo, Mato Neron, Mato; Natali: Mato, Jero; Saraka: Nikša, Ivo, Rudolf; Sorgo (Sorkočević) Herman (TOLJA 2011: ). The civil intelligence at that time, presented the basis of the movement, according to Tolja s opinion, due to its size and agility. 4) Bataković was talking about the other person with the same name and surname, that was a mistake in fact. Sadko (talk) 16:28, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

So, as I said, there is no source that explicitly calls him Serb-Catholic. Remember that WP:Synthesis is not allowed. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:54, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

It seems that his own assertion that is a "Ragusan" seems to trump all, which seems to make sense given Ragusa's history of independence. I don't see how to get around that. Historians can claim anything they want, but how to get around the man's own words? --Jesuislafete (talk) 19:30, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

That is just fine, per source and I agree that he should be called Ragusan in the lead. I added that he was a part of Serb-Catholic movement and presented source, an academic work, clearly confirms it. Other sources could/should be removed. It is not WP:Synthesis because a reliable source explicitly confirms what was written. If we agree on this, and you can double check it in the source, the fact that he was a part of (and not just supported by) SC, should be added in the text. Sadko (talk) 23:02, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

What are you talking about? When you introduced the "Serb-Catholic" description into the article, you cited four "sources": First does not mention Getaldić-Gundulić at all. The second does not mention him neither. The third mentions Frano Gundulić, a different person, and does not mention Getaldić-Gundulić at all. The fourt does mention him twice, but does not call hims "Serb-Catholic" nor "member of Serb-Catholic movement". Vanjagenije (talk) 23:16, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Chief, sure thing. I shall find new sources once I have more free time. Sadko (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Removal of gibberish

This sentence makes no sense: "He was carried along with the International Committee composed for the English ladies Miss Adeline Pauline Irby (*1831 +1911 Sarajevo) and Miss Priscilla Johnston (+1912 England) under m.Gabriel de Wesselitsky-Bojidarovitch, for Herzegovin refugees peoples." I removed it.