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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3→Archive 5

Type variations

When this page displays on my page some of the paragraphs lower in the page (universities, sports etc.) start with several list items in a smaller print size: this looks wrong. Does everyone else see this bug or is it my browser? CAn anyone fix it? --BozMo|talk 08:47, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC) ouldn't mess with templates anymore, clearly...

Universal Studios Florida is now the Universal Orlando resort because it now includes two theme parks (Universal Studios Florida, Universal's Islands of Adventure) and three resorts.

{{US state symbols |

  • Animal = Panther |The most endangered of all Florida's symbols is its state animal, the panther (Felis concolor coryi) which was chosen in 1982 by a vote of students throughout the state.

The Florida Panther is a large, long-tailed, pale brown cat that grows to six feet or longer. Its habitat is usually the same as that of the white-tailed deer, which is the mainstay of its diet.

  • Marine mammal = Manatee |The manatee (Trichechus manatus), also called a sea cow, is a gray, waterplant-eating, gentle giant that reaches eight to fourteen feet in length and can weigh more than a ton. It was designated the state marine mammal in 1975.

Manatees are on the endangered species list, but chances for their survival are good if humans' activities can be controlled. Of all the known causes of manatee fatalities, humans are responsible for about half of the deaths. The most-common cause of death for manatees is being struck by boats and barges. Also, the propeller blades of speeding boats can cut a manatee's hide to ribbons.

  • Saltwater mammal = Porpoise/Dolphin |Is it a porpoise, or is it a dolphin? Even the 1975 Florida legislature, adopting the creature as the official saltwater mammal, left the issue open, designating the "porpoise, also commonly known as the dolphin."

The terms porpoise and dolphin are often used interchangeably. Usually, they refer to the bottle-nose dolphin (Tursiops truncates), the species commonly found along Florida's Atlantic and Gulf coasts.

  • Bird = Mockingbird |The common mockingbird (Mimus polyglottos) is a superb songbird and mimic. Its own song has a pleasant lilting sound and is, at times, both varied and repetitive. Often, the mockingbird sings all night long, especially under bright springtime moonlight.
  • Butterfly = Zebra Longwing |Long black wings with distinctive thin yellow bands - combined with slow, graceful flight - characterize the zebra longwing (Heliconius charitonius). It has a wide range of habitats, including hardwood hammocks, thickets, and gardens. The zebra longwing is found throughout the state, although it is more common in south Florida, particularly in the Everglades National Park. In 1996 the state legislature designated the zebra longwing as the official state butterfly.
  • Freshwater Fish = Largemouth Bass |One of America's most-prized gamefish, the Florida largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides floridamus) seems to grow to unusually large size in Florida waters. It can reach a length of more than twenty inches and weigh more than fifteen pounds.The 1975 legislature designated the Florida largemouth bass as the official state freshwater fish.
  • Saltwater fish = Sailfish |Sailfish (Istiophorus platypterus) are not unique to Florida; they are found nearly everywhere there is warm ocean water. However, Florida sailfishing is legendary, especially in the Fort Pierce, Miami, and Keys areas during colder months. Sailfish migrate southward as the weather chills in the north.The 1975 Florida legislature adopted the Atlantic sailfish as the state's official saltwater fish.
  • Flower = Orange Blossom |The blossom of the orange tree (Citrus sinensis) is one of the most fragrant flowers in Florida. Millions of these white flowers perfume the atmosphere throughout central and south Florida during orange blossom time. The orange blossom was selected as the state flower by the 1909 legislature.
  • Shell = Horse Conch |The horse conch (Pleuroploca gigantea), also known as the giant band shell, has been Florida's official state shell since 1969. This shell is native to the marine waters around Florida and can grow to a length of twenty-four inches. Young horse conchs have orange-colored shells; adults have orange apertures.
  • Reptile = [[*State reptile: Alligator |In 1987 the Florida legislature designated the American alligator (Alligator mississippiensis) as the official state reptile. Long an unofficial symbol of the state, the alligator originally symbolized Florida's extensive untamed wilderness and swamps. Alligators are found throughout Florida and in parts of other southeastern states. They prefer lakes, swamps, canals, and other wetland habitats.
  • Tree = Sable Palm |The sabal palm (Sabal palmetto) is the most widely distributed palm in Florida. It grows in almost any soil and has many uses, including food, medicine, and landscaping. The 1953 Florida legislature designated the sabal palm as the state tree, and the 1970 legislature mandated that the sabal palm should replace the cocoa palm on the state seal.
  • Wildflower = Coreopsis |In 1991 the flower of the genus Coreopsis was designated as Florida's official wildflower. The state legislature made this designation after the colorful flowers were used extensively in Florida's roadside plantings and highway beautification programs. The coreopsis is found in a variety of colors, ranging from golden to pink.
  • Beverage = Orange Juice |During the Second World War, scientists invented a process for making concentrated orange juice. Soon, a frozen concentrate was developed that transformed orange juice production into a multi-billion-dollar industry. In 1967 the Florida legislature designated orange juice as the official state beverage.
  • Gemstone = Moonstone |United States astronauts Neil Armstrong and Edwin ("Buzz") Aldrin landed on the moon on July 20, 1969, aboard the Apollo 11 spacecraft. Since this and all other astronaut-controlled spaceflights had been launched from the Kennedy Space Center in Brevard County, the Florida legislature sought to memorize this "giant step" for humankind. In 1970, lawmakers adopted the moonstone as the official state gem.

Ironically, the moonstone, a form of the mineral feldspar, is not found naturally in Florida... nor was it found on the moon!

  • Stone = Agatized Coral |Coral is the outside skeleton of tiny ocean animals called polyps, which live in colonies attached to hard underwater surfaces. When alive, polyps combine their own carbon dioxide with the lime in warm seawater to form a limestone-like hard surface, or coral.
  • Motto = In God We Trust |"In God We Trust" was adopted by the Florida legislature as part of the state seal in 1868. This is also the motto of the United States and is a slight variation on Florida's first state motto, "In God is our Trust."
  • StateRock = Serpentine |Serpentine is a group of common rock-forming hydrous magnesium iron phyllosilicate ((Mg,Fe)3Si2O5(OH)4) minerals. In mineralogy, serpentine may refer to any of 20 minerals belonging to the serpentine group. Owing to admixture, these minerals are not always easy to individualize, and distinctions are not usually made. There are three important aggregate structures of serpentine: antigorite, chrysotile and lizardite.
  • Song = The Swanee River (Old Folks at Home) |The Suwannee River flows in a southerly direction from the Okeefenokee Swamp in Georgia to the Gulf of Mexico in Florida. The river separates the Florida panhandle from the rest of the state.Thats why it is the state song.

The Swanee River

Way down upon the Swanee River,
Far, far away,
There’s where my heart is turning ever,
There’s where the old folks stay.
All up and down the whole creation,
Sadly I roam,
Still longing for the old plantation,
And for the old folks at home.
Chorus
All the world is sad and dreary
Everywhere I roam.
O brothers, how my heart grows weary,
Far from the old folks at home.
2nd verse
All ‘round the little farm I wander’d,
When I was young;
Then many happy days I squander’d,
Many the songs I sung.
When I was playing with my brother,
Happy was I.
Oh, take me to my kind old mother,
There let me live and die.
3rd verse
One little hut among the bushes,
One that I love.
Still sadly to my memory rushes,
No matter where I rove.
When will I see the bees a humming,
All ‘round the comb?
When shall I hear the banjo strumming,

Down in my good old home.

  • Soil = Myakka Fine Sand|In 1989 the legislature designated Myakka fine sand as the official state soil. Myakka soil, which is unique to Florida, occurs in more than one-and-a-half million acres of flatwoods, making it the single most extensive soil in the state. Soil conservation is very important in Florida, where agriculture is a significant industry.

}}

Nikki 03:01, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I removed off the HTML tags and fixed it. --pile0nadestalk | contribs 17:42, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Metric

Shouldn't we be using U.S. customary for a U.S.-related article? We could still keep the metric in parentheses, or put the U.S. units in parentheses.

I agree, metric usage is not acceptable or understandable by the vast majority of English speaking readers.--Britcom 13:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the United States changed to the SI system in 1990, so using metric measurements is perfectly fine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.3.99.158 (talk • contribs) 22:05, February 22, 2007.

Still, most people in the U.S. don't use it. It's like in Doctor Who articles, British spellings are used. Programme instead of program, for example. Metric measurements just aren't common usage in the U.S. I wouldn't expect articles about European countries or cities to have non-metric measurements listed first, so vice versa. But that's just me. --Ebyabe 13:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The USA has NOT made any changeover to metric. Inclusion of metric equivalents on labels is not a changeover, it merely allows tourists to understand our quantities. Only the military and science use metrics in the USA because they work closely with metric nations. No change has been made (nor would one be accepted) by the American people at large. --Britcom 20:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Where is this happening? I can't even find a section where metric outranks the US measurements. According to the Manual of Style, since it's about the US, it's strongly suggested to have US first, metric equivalent following. There shouldn't be any debate on this, as Florida hasn't been a British territory since the early 1800's. EaglesFanInTampa (formerly Jimbo) 19:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Religion

I just reverted an anonymous edit that had changed the percentage of Roman Catholics from 23 to 27 percent. There was no supporting information. I am not aware, though, where this information orginally comes from. If anyone thinks that the percentages of different religious groups is a misrepresentation, please try to find an appropriate source for more up-to-date info. I have done a little bit of searching, but can't find much. Currently our numbers add up to 97%, which seems odd, considering we have categories of "no religion" and "other religions." Again, since I can't find a discussion of it here, I am not sure how these numbers were reached. I'll keep looking for more current info.--Minaflorida 17:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Info on Orthodox Catholics should be included in the article since Florida has large a Orthodox population in it. I hope they have not been lumped in with the Roman Catholic numbers. --Britcom 07:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Orthodox Catholics or Eastern Orthodox? --Kimon 14:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that most Orthodox religions consider themselves Catholic and maintian that it was actually the Roman Catholic bishop (i.e. the Pope) who broke away from the original Catholic Church, what we now call the Orthodox Church. But, in Florida I was mainly speaking of the Greek Orthodox Church, but there are others as well. --Britcom 04:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Regions of Florida

This needs cleaning up. I'm still fairly new to wikipedia, but I think that there is too much overlap in the "regions of florida". There should be less regions or someone should add another level into the "regions", "largest cities" "counties" graph.

seems to me each county should be in one and only one region. i suggest these:

  • Emerald Coast(aka as "redneck riviera") including non coastal counties.
  • First Coast which would include coast from Georgia to Flagler county.
  • Nature Coast- "the bend"
  • Treasure Coast- Indian River, Martin, and Saint Lucie counties. Could Include Inland Okeechobee county.
  • Gold Coast- Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm beach.
  • Suncoast- Tampa Bay down to Naples.
  • Central Florda- the area I listed in Central Florida article.
  • Florida Keys

which would leave only the Gainesville and Tallahassee areas not included- not sure what to call them except maybe :

so there you have 10 regions as opposed to the current 14. so if you are in florida, you are in one and only one wiki-designated region compared to the current 0,1,2, or 3 under current wiki-regions.

Jcam 18:44, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I think "Redneck Riviera" and "Emerald Coast" are two distinct ideas and as such, need their own articles. The articles read the same, but with some editing, I think the main differences can be articulated well. Now you didn't include Florida Panhandle, which, IMO, is more important than any Gator Country or Nole Country. Some of these regions are not just nicknames, but real geographical regions and should (will) be kept. Mike H 20:11, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
The question I guess I have is this. I've seen other states' regions listed on their respective pages and their regions don't overlap- is it more important for someone who sees the list of regions to see as many different possible names for perhaps the same region or for that person to have an unambigous list? example: assume i have never been to Florida, but have to do a research paper/report on it for school. I do research here and write "the regions of florida are "the redneck riviera, the emerald coast, the panhandle ... ' etc.

Jcam 20:43, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Then it's maybe a matter of just removing some of the extra regions from the template on Florida. They should still be mentioned in the article but the template should be helpful and not confusing. Mike H 21:37, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Thresher 16:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The Redneck Riveria is not a "region" per se. It's a disparaging appellation for the area between Panama City Beach and Ft. Walton (or perhaps Pensacola depending on who you ask). It was traditionally a low cost place for people from Alabama, Georgia, and Tennessee to come vacation. The area overlaps with the Emerald Coast of Florida, which is the region from Panama City Beach to the Alabama border.
I'm in agreement that Redneck Riveria deserves its own mention, but not as an official region of Florida, that's covered by the Emerald Coast label. The problem is that these are all marketing terms, not official names for the areas. Generally, Florida is broken up into Panhandle (Northwest Florida), Northeast Florida, Central Florida, Southwest Florida, Southeast Florida, and the Keys. For marketing purposes, you have the Emerald Coast (Panama City, Destin, Ft. Walton, Pensacola), Nature coast (Big Bend area), Sun Coast (Tampa Bay area), Cultural Coast (around Sarasota), Lee Island Coast (Ft. Myers), The Everglades, the Keys, the Gold Coast, the Treasure Coast, Space Coast, then the First Coast. All of which are terms adopted by the various Chambers of Commerce.
The middle strip of Florida, from Gainesville down to Lake Okeechobee is generally called Central Florida, sometimes called the Sand Hills or even the Florida Highlands. It doesn't really have a catchy marketing term for it, at least not that I am aware of.
g


Listing every community as "important"?

I realize a lot of work is going into adding many communities to the "Important cities, towns, and communities" but wondering if the very large listing every place in Florida as important is a good idea? seems we're getting close to it being a List of cities in Florida grouped by population. Flawiki 17:07, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I am only listing the places that have more than 10,000 people. If we deleted the 10,000+ section, and only listed the 25,000+ cities, it would look much neater. What do you think? (unsigned edits by 65.11.236.249)
First, let me once again state that I think you've put a lot of good work into the article. *THANK YOU!* I think it looks better without the really small places. My concern was getting it too cluttered, but it doesn't look any more cluttered now than it did before, and the info is updated. If we have too many more would you consider perhaps kicking out the 25K-<50K folks? I'm trying to reconcile the importance aspect with, for some of these places, their unimportance, as against preserving your excellent effort. I'm very much inclined to fall on the side of not only preserving but also touting your good work. Flawiki 00:44, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I have listed all the cities with 25,000 and more. If that is too cluttered we can delete the 25,000-49,999.

Changes to the Race and Ancestry Table

64.12.116.131 changed the percentage of whites from 65.4 to 67.4, the percentage of Hispanics from 16.8 to 12.8, and the percentage of Blacks from 14.6 to 20.6.

Please don't make changes like that without referencing some current resource, and describing the change in the talk page so that people won't mistake it for vandalism! Also, if you're going to change some figures like this, it's best to log in first, so that if people have questions about it, they can talk to you about it.
--GraemeMcRae 06:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
P.S., I reverted the change. So if it's legit (somehow I doubt it) post your rationale here, and if it's believable, then your changes will "stick" next time. Thanks.

Hispanic and Latino Voting Preferences

The following paragraph was added to the Race and Ancestry section:

Florida is one of the only states in which Hispanics predominantly vote Republican. This is because most Florida Latinos are Cuban rather than Mexican (as in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Texas, etc.) or Puerto Rican (as in New York, New Jersey, etc.). As in every American state, however, blacks are overwhelmingly Democratic voters. Florida's fast-growing Latino population is heaviest in Miami, Central Florida, and the Gulf Coast. Blacks are most densely congregated in North Florida, Fort Lauderdale, and the Tampa Bay Area.

You will get some objections to the use of Latino as synonymous to Hispanic. From the Hispanic article,

"Hispanic" ... specifically refers to Spain or to the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas as cultural and demographic extensions of Spain.

Meanwhile, Latinos are only those from the countries of Latin America, whether Spanish or Portuguese-speaking (though, in this case, not so frequently and with some ambiguities).

In addition, many people who find themselves referred-to as "Hispanic" strongly object to being lumped together with other groups who are similarly identified. Quoting, again, from the Hispanic article,

Difficulties and criticisms on the U.S. application of "Hispanic"

"Hispanic", as the term is defined and used in the United States, encompasses a very diverse population, which often makes efforts toward creating a Pan-Hispanic sense of identity difficult. While in the United States Hispanics are often treated as a group apart from "whites", "blacks", and other racial groups, they actually include people who identify with any of the aforementioned racial and ethnic groups, as well as identifying as various others.

The best way to address these objections, while still explaining the noted voting preference, IMO, would go something like this:

Florida is one of the only states in which Hispanics predominantly vote Republican. This descrepancy arises because people classified as "Hispanic" come from widely diverse backgrounds. People whose race is identified as "Hispanic" in Florida are mostly of Cuban descent, as opposed to Mexican descent (who live largely in the southwest of the U.S.) or Puerto Rican descent (who live largely in the northeast of the U.S.). Florida's fast-growing Hispanic population is heaviest in Miami, Central Florida, and the Gulf Coast. Black Floridians are overwhelmingly Democratic voters. Blacks comprise a large fraction of the populations of North Florida, Fort Lauderdale, and the Tampa Bay Area.

I like the rewrite. Would it be useful to have statistics that break down the proportion of Cubans (presumably more likely to vote Republican) as compared to their Mexican and Puerto Rican counterparts? I don't have any but I'll add them if I encounter same. Flawiki 13:14, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Latino means anyone with Latin ancestry, which includes people that are French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Romanian, etc. Using Latino would be incorrect. Also being Hispanic is not a race, as being from Spain, you would be Caucasian. However being biracial Hispanic (having both Native American/Asian and Caucasian ancestry) would be a different story. Casey1427 October 2005
Look up latino in Wikipedia, and you'll see you're quite right. But there is a "U.S. ethnic usage" of the term, which has a more specific meaning.—GraemeMcRaetalk 04:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Yet some Americans with Spanish, Romanian, French and Italian heritage refer to themselves as latino, so should they be referred to being biracial? Casey1431 October 2005

Record temperature -- is it really 109º?

Recently, User:JeffreyAllen1975 added the statement, The hottest temperature ever recorded was 109 °F set on June 29, 1931 in Monticello, Florida.

I was concerned about the authoritativeness (I looked it up, it's a word) of that figure. Not that I doubt JeffreyAllen1975. I trust, but I check. And when I checked. I found a website for the city, epodunk.com, that says "Record high: The state's highest temperature on record was reported here on June 29, 1931, at 109 degrees," exactly matching the edit.

Still, this is a website whose main function is advertising local merchants in all areas of the U.S., not an authority on weather. I checked weather.com, which said "The highest recorded temperature was 106°F in 1962." Uh-Oh. A strike against the data. Still, with all due respect, weather.com is a company whose main goal is selling advertising -- not a respected authority.

I had a heck of a time navigating the NOAA websites, but finally managed the feat. The main page for the NOAA's National Climatic Data Center is:

Under the heading "Climate Info." is a link labeled "Extremes" that leads you to this page:

There are dozens of links on this page. Click the one labeled "Extreme Weather and Climate Events", which brings up this page:

Amongst the tornados and hurricanes, you will find a link to this:

Look for "All-Time Temperature Maximums By State, PDF file", and you'll see a link to this:

By the way, there's also a link for the all-time low temperatures by state, which is

The statement is hereby corroborated. After all that, I feel I should document this somewhere a little more permanent than Florida's Talk page. Maybe I'll make a List of All-Time High and Low Temperatures by State That's the ticket.

Before I leave this topic, I would like to say publicly to User:JeffreyAllen1975 Thank you for putting an interesting factoid into the Wikipedia, and getting me started on this odyssey of discovery. Without dedicated editors like you, this place wouldn't be so great!
--GraemeMcRaetalk 06:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

List of Protestantism by US State

It is POV to selectively list Protestantism and not also link, for example List of Catholicism by US State or List of Buddhism by US State.
brenneman(t)(c) 10:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

florida

a state in the bottom right hand corner of the united states of america

Metro areas

I think that under the cities/metro areas section, the metro areas listed should link to the metro area articles, not the city articles. I'm prepared to make that change, but wanted to see what people thought first.

Agree. ALC Washington 18:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Ancestory

The largest reported ancestries in the 2000 Census were German (11.8%), Irish (10.3%), English (9.2%), American (8%) and Italian (6.3%).

How can this be true? What about Cuba, Spain, or parts of Africa?--Cuchullain 21:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The U.S. Census site includes this information:
Race alone or in combination with one or more other races:
Race............................................Number........%
White.......................................12,734,292.....79.7
Black or African American....................2,471,730.....15.5
American Indian and Alaska Native..............117,880......0.7
Asian..........................................333,013......2.1
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander......23,998......0.2
Some other race................................697,074......4.4
HISPANIC OR LATINO AND RACE
Total population............................15,982,378....100.0
Hispanic or Latino (of any race).............2,682,715.....16.8
Mexican........................................363,925......2.3
Puerto Rican...................................482,027......3.0
Cuban..........................................833,120......5.2
Other Hispanic or Latino.....................1,003,643......6.3
Not Hispanic or Latino......................13,299,663.....83.2
White alone.................................10,458,509.....65.4
I can't get these to line up without more work, so I'll leave it sloppy, but you get the idea. I'm not sure where the German, etc. figures came from.

Politics of Florida

Why not a Politics of Florida section? --Revolución (talk) 04:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Why not a Gay Florida section? 71.199.196.105 03:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not combine the two with a section for Florida's most famous politician, RPOF backroom insider, Republican Senator Mark Foley.

Jones College

I have unlinked [[Jones College]] because the current article at [[Jones College]] is for Mary Gibbs College at Rice University. -- Dalbury(Talk) 00:58, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Cracker

I'm a native Floridian and never heard the term Cracker used in reference to cattle and rattlesnakes. I was brought up thinking the term was related to turpentine stills and the process of "cracking" pine sap to create turpentine. Can anyone clarify or confirm? --Thresher 16:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)User:Thresher

According to my local Florida historian "Cracker" is a name that means the same as "Cowboy" here in Florida. There is even a breed of Florida cattle called "Cracker Cattle" and a breed of horse called "Cracker Horses". The name "Cracker" refers to the bull whip cracking that Florida cattlemen used (and still use) to heard cattle through the thick palmetto scrub. Some "Crackers" had both a cattle operation, and a turpentine operation. In some cases the turpentine operation may have outlived the cattle operation, but the operators may have kept the name for social and cultural reasons. --Britcom 22:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
It may not be that simple. See [1], for a review of what is known, and not known, of the origin of the term. -- Donald Albury 23:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The above referenced article does not conflict with what I said about the usage of "Cracker" in Florida. The 14th century references to the word "Cracker" in England are likely unrelated to the local Florida usage of the same word. The English term is probably related to the "Christmas cracker", a type of holiday firework.--Britcom 23:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I did find something I thought I remembered. The earliest citation in the OED for 'cracker' in the sense of poor white Southerner is from 1784, and refers to people from the "back settlements" of Marland. The OED also cites the use of 'cracker' to mean a boaster, braggard or liar in sources from 1509 up to 1743, while the separate meaning of noisemaker had appeared by 1590. The derivation of 'cracker' from whip cracking is a folk etymology, no better established than the folk etymologies that derive it from cracking corn (to make whiskey) or being so poor as to have nothing to eat but soda crackers. -- Donald Albury 03:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
By: "back settlements" of Marland I take it you meant Maryland.
I think that the idea that "Crackers" (as used in Florida) is synonoumus with "poor white Southerner" is incorrect. Crackers are ranchers, and ranchers were (and are) some of richest people in Florida. They were (and are) land owners. Although a local "Cracker" has been known to refer to himself as "land poor", which meant that even though he has millions of dollars in undeveloped land holdings, he has little cash income from ranching. --Britcom 11:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I know this is a strange place to find the information, but part of an Noise Abatement assessment for Kendall-Tamiami Executive airport references some historical research by Janus, which included a reference to Gaby (1993). [2] "The Second Seminole War had a deleterious effect on new settlement in Florida. To encourage settlement in the middle portion of the territory after the war, the Armed Occupation Act of 1842 offered settlers 160 acres of land at no cost, provided they built a house, cleared five acres, planted crops, and resided on the land for five years. Any head of a family, or single man over 18 years of age and able to bear arms, was eligible to receive a homestead. This act, plus the end of the Second Seminole War, created a small wave of immigration by Anglo-American pioneers to central Florida. Most of these immigrants were Anglo-American farmers and cattle ranchers, or “crackers,” from the southeastern United States (Gaby 1993)." The refence in detail is "Gaby, Donald C. 1993 The Miami River and Its Tributaries. The Historical Association of South Florida, Miami, Florida.". From a personal standpoint, my granny was proud to be called a Cracker, but she figured the term meant that she and her father had come here from Georgia, and called herself a "Georgia Cracker". CodeCarpenter 22:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, I noticed that much of this discussion is in place under Cracker (pejorative) for those that want further details. CodeCarpenter 17:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Article in today's Herald talking about Cracker Ranch, Cattle, Horses, and the Florida Cracker Trail Association. [3] CodeCarpenter 21:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

FL not an Alcoholic beverage control state

An ABC store typically refers to an Alcohol Beverage Control store operated by one of the Alcoholic beverage control states. However, this is not the case in Florida, which has hundreds of privately owned ABC alcohol retail stores.24.163.88.33 23:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the reason why it was taken out of the article was because it didn't contribute anything. Why does it need to be here? Why do people care? Mike H. That's hot 00:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
You hit the nail on the head, Mike. While that may be interesting if you are say, the proprietor of an ABC store or you own the chain (as in, using Wikipedia for advertising, a no-no anyway), I'm not sure why that was a)inserted in the "Economy" section, and b)relevant to anything in the article anyway. Seemed overall like a glaring non-sequitur. Trevormartin227 00:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
It might be confusing to a tourist, but that can be covered in Wikitravel. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 14:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Former Confederate State template

Why was this added to the state infobox? It could go on the History of Florida page, but I can't see how the dates of the Civil War are are relevant enough to put there, except perhaps to Civil War buffs.--Cúchullain t / c 01:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Disagree on this one, Cuchullain. The dates of secession and readmission are as important as the dates of the state's original accession, because they all refer to the staus of Florida as a party to the federal union. It's not something I'd be proud of, but it is an essential part of what "Florida" the politicial entity refers to. ALC Washington 16:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I am totally against this template. There needs to be a consistent template for all the states. There shouldn't be a separate one for some states. --JW1805 (Talk) 04:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Florida's dark side

I've often heard people discussing how messed up Florida is, and 60 minutes recently elaborated on this point. A quote from a CBS news article reads as follow, "The Sunshine State is a paradise of scandals teeming with drifters, deadbeats, and misfits drawn here by some dark primordial calling like demented trout. And you'd be surprised how many of them decide to run for public office." This is certainly a pov quote (although including pov quotes does not make an article pov), however I think it's important that at least some mention be made of this issue. For the full article you can go here. Vicarious 11:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


Agreed. As a resident I'll vouch that it's been getting worse down here. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 14:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The line between organized crime and the Republican party is nonexistant. From Bush's Jack Abramoff to the Republican hit on Gus Boulis to the rigging of local elections in Broward County and Florida's 13th District, the entire system is rigged at the federal, state, local and Elite levels.

Civil War

I think that there should be more information about the Civil War in this article. Was there any battle fought in Florida? Where were most of the slaves concentrated? How was the state affected; obviously it was affected in the same way as all of the other Southern states, but is there anything in particular? If anyone could help, it would be appreciated. Thanks. Stallions2010 21:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there were. Around Sumter and other places (sorry I don't know more) I remember going to reinactments of particular battles. So I know there are people actively interested. I'll try to find some stuff. KarenAnn 22:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Florida is remarkable in terms of the Civil War. Tallahassee was the only Confederate capital east of the Mississippi River not to be captured by the Union. Invading Union forces were defeated in 1865 at the Battle of Natural Bridge south of Tallahassee. Students from what later became Florida State University fought in that battle, thus earning the FSU ROTC unit a campaign streamer, one of two universities in the United States so honored. Sirberus 01:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the State of Michigan talk page!

[4] Those guys are really working on it. Why don't we do the same KarenAnn 22:11, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


Civil War in Florida References

If anyone wants to take up this topic these look like interesting pages. KarenAnn 23:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Also:

"Important" cities and towns?

The "Important" cities and town section seems to have grown into a shopping list of every metro area, city and town in the state, sorted by population. Except for the sorted populations of the less notable places, all of this information is already in the main article, List of cities in Florida. In that the Florida article is already too long, what objections are there to ditching the entire list as duplicative below, say, the final entry on "Metro areas"? --Flawiki 15:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather have that whole section be prose anyway. We definitely don't need to mention "important" towns like Archer, Florida, approximate population around 3,000. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 19:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the towns that do not have a population greater than 25,000, because these towns, while they may be nice, are not considered important in the encyclopedic sense. An anonymous user reverted my changes, citing some commentary about small towns...this reasoning does not justify inclusion in an encylopedia, totally irrelevent. Please visit Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Not wanting to get in to a revert war, let's hear some more opinions. Thanks Trevormartin227 17:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Wiping towns <25K seems a reasonable compromise. It doesn't look like the reverter is interested in discussing this though, so off it goes again. --Flawiki 12:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Whoops someone beat me to it. How about the rest of them? Mike H.'s desire to have prose only here sounds right to me. Trevormartin227's cite to official policy excluding mere collections of internal links is persuasive. --Flawiki 13:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The complete and utter lack of comments supporting keeping any bits of either the city or college list is mind boggling. It seems both of these lists are ripe for complete nuking. --Flawiki 23:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The city list appears to have redundancy in the list, as can be seen by DeLand & Deltona appearing twice on the list. Also the appearance of "University" on the list seems a bit ridiculous, as it seems to incorporate both students living on campus and those living immediately off campus, along with the local population (I actually live in this area when I am attending classes, and it is just part of the greater Tampa area like Lutz and Carrolwood). Onto the concern on the Universities and Colleges lists: There is already a wikipage with the State Universities so why not just compile a list page to contain all the Universities and Colleges, and their Campus Locations. EX: "Lake Sumter Community College; Leesburg, Sumterville, Clermont." This may maintain an easily readable main FL page and still allow for easy access to the information about post-secondary education. Those are my thoughts on the situation, and if nobody has a problem with them I will start to make some of this happen as time allows. Das Nerd 06:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Addressing your concerns over the list of cities: Deltona and DeLand are not actually listed twice. The list first contains the populations of the state's collective metropolitan areas as grouped by the US Census Bureau. First listed is Miami/Fort Lauderdale Metropolitan with over 5,000,000, then Tampa, then both Jacksonville and Orlando and decreasingly so according to each designated metropolitan area's population. These areas are listed collectively and are named by the US Census Bureau after the largest cities located within them. They are grouped together because the cities located within them either border each other, or are in close proximity to each other, and thus, affect their populations and are generally considered to one large urban area. Next down the list, you have each individual city's population, such as Jacksonville, with 700,000 people in contrast to Jacksonville meotropolitan, with a little more than 1,000,000. The Deltona-Daytona Beach-Deland metropolitan area is the name given the the area around Daytona Beach, we first list its metropolitan population, and then below it, each major city in that metropolitan area's population is quoted individually from the metro area's whole. As for University, the reason this is included is because the list contains both cities and census designated placees which are unincoporated communities that behave like cities but aren't. University, in Hillsborough County, is designated as a census-designated place and has a population larger than 25,000, so it is included. The population of the area designated as "University" most likely includes persons who list their homes in the US Census Surveys as being located within the boundaries of that particular CDP. Thus, it is not ridiculous to place the CDP in the list as, according to the US Census Bureau, over 25,000 people list their home as being located in the Univerty CDP, Hillsborough County, Florida. Lutz and Carrolwood, which may also be CDPs or individual cities are not listed possibly because their official population tallies have not yet reached 25,000. Hopefully, I have been able to explain the reasons for the list being the way it is. I have no comment on your concerns about the colleges and universities. Thanks. -- SmthManly / ManlyTalk / ManlyContribs 06:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I personally don't like "University, Florida" being included, either. It may be a CDP, but it's also somewhat of a non-entity, in that the area is either called "Tampa" or "Temple Terrace," depending on what part of "University" you live in. Nobody in the area calls it "University, Florida," as if it were its own town or anything. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 06:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Florida as part of the South

What is your opinion on Florida being part of the South? On the current map showing the South (see below), northern Florida (Pensacola/Tallahassee area) is included, but southern Florida (Miami/Homestead area) isn't (or rather isn't a definite part of the South, being striped). Do y'all think that all of Florida should be included, none of it, or it is fine the way it is? Input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Current map of the South.--Stallions2010 22:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Many people in northern Florida do not consider southern Florida to be part of the South, and I understand why. Remember, peninsular Florida was very sparsely settled until after the Civil War. Development after the war was often instigated and financed by northerners and foreigners, and even though the majority of immigrants into peninsular Florida from the Civil War until WWII were from the South, the Southern culture did not have the same hold as in the old South. And since WWII, migration from the North and from other countries has further diluted the Southern component in peninsular Florida. So I would say that Southerners (Southern culture) are a significant minority in peninsular Florida, and the map appropriately shows that. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 00:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Florida wasn't really all that populated until the "land booms" of the 1910s and 1920s. The railroad to Miami helped build it up but for about 50 years from 1865 to 1915, Florida was still very thinly populated. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 07:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... seems like an attempt to divide and conquer the great state of Florida:) I think drawing a line on a map between the "Southern" and "non-Southern" parts of the state is totally arbitrary and probably misleading. Personally I would consider Florida Southern with reservations, but also something distinct. I think the whole state should be one color (I'd prefer solid over striped, it looks prettier) and the reservations should be explained in the article.--Cúchullain t/c 17:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I have lived in South Florida (Miami Beach) for the last five years, and I lived in North Florida (Gainesville) before that. I agree with how the map is drawn. Very few aspects of Southern culture are widely represented in South Florida, with fewer the further south you go. Many people joke that Florida is actually divided into two parts: "Florida" in the North and "Cuba" in the South. (Sobesurfski 03:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC))
The map has been changed to where all of Florida is solid now. Apparently the map met some controversy. --Stallions2010 05:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

English vs. British

I changed the history to refer to England/English for events prior to 1707, which is when England and Scotland joined to form the Kingdom of Great Britain. It is anachronistic to speak of British or Great Britain prior to the Acts of Union 1707. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 00:43, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Migration to Florida

I was struck by this statement, Their [African-Americans] proportion declined over the next century, as many moved north in the Great Migration while large numbers of northern whites moved to the state. I know it was not just northern whites. In fact, I'm pretty sure that whites from other southern states out-numbered northern whites as immigrants until after WW II. The problem is finding sources. -- Donald Albury 02:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Terrible.

I'm not a Floridian and have no desire to edit this article, but I do have to say this is currently one of the worst pages of any major U.S. state article. It needs a major overhaul and cleanup, it lacks organization but has plenty of cruft, and very little coherence or substance. NTK 06:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Question on apartments

Moved from another section to end of page in line with normal practice.
Does anyone have unit mixes on apartments or properties in the Melbourne/Brevard County area's?

This talk page is for discussing the contents and format of the article on 'Florida'. I suggest you look for on-line apartment guides for Brevard County. -- Donald Albury 15:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you.

Dubious assertion regarding sunshine

There's no way that the state averages 300 days of full sunshine per year. That would mean at least 83% sunshine averaged over the entire state, and that's assuming all of the other days are completely overcast (but also assuming that the # of "full sunshine days" are evenly distributed throughout the year). In general, this section could use many more sources. Ufwuct 21:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I really doubt it. In the past 10 or so times I've been to Florida, 3 of those trips have been rained out, and it's usually only sunny in the winter (or at least that's the case when I go, especially in January). 1ne 21:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the dubious assertion. I have heard that described about many places, including Southern California. If anything, it's more of a tourism slogan about Florida, with no evidence to back it in reality. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 00:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Saint Johns, Florida

Saint Johns is a newly designated town/city in St. Johns County. It encompasses the northwest portion of the county and includes (I believe) Fruit Cove, Switzerland and the Julington Creek development. I don't know if it's incorporated or not, but the U.S. Postal Service recognizes it as a ligitimate town to address mail to. I think someone should create a new page for Saint Johns. I would, but I don't have enough information about the new city. Thanks.

New Sports section added to updated Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states format

The Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states format has been updated to include a new Sports section, that covers collegiate sports, amateur sports, and non-team sports (such as hunting and fishing). Please feel free to add this new heading, and supply information about sports in Florida. Please see South_carolina#Sports_in_South_Carolina as an example. NorCalHistory 16:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Area of Florida

I changed the area of Florida, I used information form the 2000 census, as the previous data had no source I figured this was ok. However, I wasn't sure how to cite it properly.Lotu 06:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

"Environmental Issues"

Entire "Environmental Issues" section should be removed or rewritten in compliance with WP:SOAPBOX . The "Global Warming" prognostications used here are bogus and the examples such as saltwater intrusion have nothing to do with climate. Saltwater intrusion is known to be caused by over-development and over use of well systems, not climate. The references to "Global Warming" being a cause of hurricane strikes are equally bogus and meteorologists at the National Hurricane Center dispute this claim. This whole section is in violation of the WP:SOAPBOX policy against using Wikipedia for political propaganda. I have included several {cn} tags in the section in the mean time in case anyone would like to show us where these statements have originated from. --Britcom 07:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say that the statements may be unsourced at present, but I know sources exist for statements that the mean ocean level is rising and is predicted to rise considerably more in the next century, and that global warming has contributed to increased strength of tropical cyclones. Such statements may be controversial and disputed, but they are not 'bogus'. -- Donald Albury 23:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
"So called “sources" may exist for "global warming", but not many consider those sources to be authoritative. I live on the ocean, and if sea level were to have risen even by a "mean" inch or so, I would be standing in the ocean. The very idea that sea-level is rising is preposterous. Nor do I see any genuine scientific evidence to support any connection between Hurricane strength or frequency. Hurricanes of Cat. 3 or higher have always hit the Gulf and Atlantic coasts of North America, and they will continue to do so. People who propound such linkage ideas fail to (or are motivated not to want to) understand the fundamental differences between climate change and weather cycles. Theories that purport to connect the two are just that, "theories" and there is a large and well respected sector of the science community that thinks those theories are bogus and hype and not rooted in any real science, but rather find their origins in the propaganda of globalism and international politics. It is far more likely that political factions within the United Nations have seen an opportunity to concoct a scheme to use “climate change” as a convenient excuse to enact a Kyoto style carbon tax on the industrialized nations to bankroll their UN boondoggles and finance their globalist agenda. Let us not forget that the UN concocted, ran, and continues to attempt to cover up the guilty parties involved in the largest and most repugnant money scam in world history; the Iraq Oil for Food Corruption Scandal. Conveniently the “global warming” carbon tax (if it were allowed to be created) would also be operated by those same grievously corrupt bureaucrats.
Using Wikipedia as a soapbox for “global warming” hype and scaremongering is against Wikipedia policy, and should not be encouraged here.--Britcom 08:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Please cite your vague and nebulous sources that dispute global warming. Then I can nip off and move the doomsday clock back a couple of minutes. --Brianmc 17:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
For those who are not up to date on the controversial "Global Warming" theory, or who have heard only one side of the debate as a result of leftist/globalist propaganda via the media, further study can begin with the numerous sources listed in the following Wikipedia article. List of scientists opposing global warming consensus. Each listing contains a summary of the opposing viewpoint.--Britcom 23:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
And there is also this recent article in the National Post (Canada): "The real deal?" --Britcom 11:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
And here is another recent news article: "Global Warming: The Cold, Hard Facts?" --Britcom 14:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
And there is also this documentary made for British television: The Great Global Warming Swindle and the producers site about the video: [5]
And there is also this story which includes some excoriating commentary by Canadian environmental consultant, Dr. Timothy F. Ball --Britcom 02:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
And also this story: [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55646 Hal Lindsey]--Britcom 06:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
And now this: Climate Momentum Shifting: Prominent Scientists Reverse Belief in Man-made Global Warming - Now Skeptics --Britcom 13:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
This is also a good one: Global warming debunked --Britcom 15:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a link to the latest in a twenty part expose' by the National Post (Canada) on the "global warming" phenomenon: They call this a consensus? --Britcom 18:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
HAH! I knew it. - Washington Post: "Global warming is a hoax" --Britcom 06:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
More evidence of climate hoax: Swedish Scientist Accuses UN's IPCC of Falsifying Data and Destroying Evidence --Britcom 08:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
And more evidence: Scientists Refute IPCC’s Dismissal of Sunspot Connection to Climate Change--Britcom 08:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Chicago Sun Times: "Alarmist global warming claims melt under scientific scrutiny"

I just added a source to the beginning of the paragraph of environmental issues, indicating that while Florida is 5th in terms of energy that they consume, less than 1% of energy consumed is renewable. This is a respected article, published and endorsed by Harvard. I agree that the entire environmental issues/global warming hype should be removed, and that the article should be only about the energy consumption and environmental intiatives that Florida is taking. I agree that the global warming push should not be put into this article, and should be completely removed by the appropriate individual. I look forward to seeing this section written appropriately and objectively. WiiAlbanyGirl 19:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Semi-Protection

Semi-protection has been requested for the article due to vandalism. --Britcom 09:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)



Under External links can some one please remove MyFlorida.Com - The Official Portal of the State of Florida because this is a duplicate link that already exists in the article's InfoBox, and unfortunately because the article is semi-protected I can't change it. Thank you in advance. 151.198.148.170 05:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The link has been removed--Britcom 22:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Spain tag

While it makes sense to include Spanish Florida in WikiProject Spain, I think including this article in that project is a bit too much. I'm uncomfortable with the proliferation of project tags I see on many talk pages. Too many cooks and all that. -- Donald Albury 01:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Persistent Vandalism

Semi-protection has been requested...again. Children should find somewhere else to play or I am going to call your mother. --Britcom 08:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Nickname of Florida

What is the nickname of florida? That should be included in the geography or something so when you get a chance could you please pu that in their. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.111.2.46 (talk) 18:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

Nicknames of states, cities, etc. are always listed in the infobox, usually below the flag and seal, if applicable. In this case, it's "The Sunshine State." Since it really has nothing to do with geography, there's no need for it to be there. However, it's standard to be in the same place on all infoboxes. EaglesFanInTampa (formerly Jimbo) 19:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Second Fastest Growing State?

Nevada got outpaced by Arizona in 2006, making it the second fastest growing state. Florida, I believe, is 3rd.

Plus, the source justifying it leads to a link that doesn't work.

If you have a source, then please do edit the article and include a link to the source here. --Britcom 16:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Well,here's my source. It comes from 2004, so it may not be completely accurate i.e. Nevada growing faster than Arizona. However, it is still accurate in many population growth rankings. The population growth is from 2004 to 2015.

http://www.bcnys.org/whatsnew/2005/0420censuspoptable.htm

P.S. I can't edit the article because it's been locked to unregistered users.

I have made the edit for you, I would encourage you to set up a user account for yourself as this page is often protected due to continued vandalism from some immature users. No personal questions are asked in the process of setting up a user account and it is a fairly quick and simple process. And also remember to "sign" your posts on the talk pages using 4 tildes ( ~~~~ ) (usually to the left of the #1 key on your keyboard) this will automagicly insert the time and date and your IP address (or username if you have one) so we can keep track of who said what here. --Britcom 06:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

PASCUA FLORIDA. Pascua Florida is a expresion used in all the regions of Spain that refers to Easter, not only in Catalonia, so being Juan Ponce de Leon native of the castillian city of Leon as its name clearly states, it is no sense to say that he named the zone after "the catalan expresion".

whoo

Hello, my name is rich from dhms in drexel hill i used to live in florida i i think u should post up in florida the nature in the everglades and all animals an how buetiful it is because if u have experienced it by first hand then u will know wut im talking about thank you and good-bye[[Category:147.31.184.143 16:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)rich ]]

Racially Offensive terms

"Crackers" is a racial slur. The claim that white Floridians affectionately refer to themselves as "Crackers" needs citation.

"Cracker" is sometimes used as a racial slur, but may have not been originally. I know many people who talk about the "Florida crackers" and refer to them affectionately (or even call themselves that). I don't think I can give you a source that definitively says it myself but if you look for the information it's out there. It is definitely not just a racial slur. To say it is that is without background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_cracker 75.104.47.114 15:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It can be used as a racial epithet, for instance when referring to "cracker cops" or it can imply that a particular white person has racist or unenlightened attitudes ("that cracker down the street who trains his dog to growl at black folks"). As the Wikipedia article says, it can also be used as a proud self-descriptor with no racial overtones whatsoever. The meaning comes from the intent and context of the usage. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that. Twalls 16:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely. 75.104.47.114 01:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think "cracker" is a racial slur anymore than redneck is a racial slur. Both refer to a stereotype people with a certain background. I think if cracker is used as an epithet, it is mainly used in that manner outside of Florida, so the Floridan usage is not considered offensive here since it has a sense of meaning almost unique to Florida.--Britcom 09:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
To the original poster: Quit trying to be P.C.- you have no idea what you're talking about. Read Patrick D. Smith's "A Land Remembered" to learn about crackers. 130.134.81.16 17:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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