Talk:Flag of South Korea/Archive 1

Archive 1

Image caption error

None of the pictures in Image:Flag of old Korea.jpg are from the July 1882 United States Navy flag book! Instead, that would be image http://english.chosun.com/media/photo/news/200401/200401260030_00.jpg , linked from http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200401/200401260030.html AnonMoos 19:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:WBC-TVCM-ORIGINAL.JPG

Image:WBC-TVCM-ORIGINAL.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Discovery of Old Flag Discredits 'Taegukgi' Legend

http://www.serimuse.org/DOC/mu/doc/muPdsV.html?p_tabgbn=YmJz&regseq=258&nPage=6

The oldest Taegukgi, the national flag of Korea, was found. This version is listed in ‘Flags of Maritime Nations,’ published by the Bureau of Navigation at the U.S. Navy Department in July 1882. This version uses the four trigrams from the Book of Changes. Until now, Park Yeong-hyo was known as the first person to use four trigrams from the Book of Changes. The flag was published two or three months before Park moved to Japan.

The oldest picture of a “Taegukgi,” the national flag of Korea, has been discovered, giving insight into how the flag’s symbols came to be used. The Taegukgi was found in the “Flags of Maritime Nations,” issued by the U.S. Navy Department’s Bureau of Navigation in July 1882, and with its red and blue yin-yang symbol and four black trigrams has the same form as the current Korean flag. This Taegukgi would be two or three months older than the one used by Park Yeong-hyo, who is known as the first to make and use a four-trigram flag. Park did so during a diplomatic mission to Japan from August to September of 1882.

In the foreword of “Flags of Maritime Nations,” it is written that the U.S. Senate voted on July 19, 1882 to make 3,000 copies of the book and distribute among government bodies. If so, than the Korean flag depicted in it would have been in use at least two or three months prior to the printing of the book. This would decisively discredit the popularly held belief that Park Yeong-hyo made the first Taegukgi. On the left is the ‘national flag of Chosun’ printed in Japanese newspaper ‘Jijishinpo’ on Oct. 2, 1882. One in the right is the "national flag of Goryeo" mentioned in a diplomatic document of the Ching Dynasty, dated March 1883.

In March 1883, the Taegukgi was formally adopted as the Korean national flag.

Kim Weon-mo, an honorary professor at Dankook University and an expert on the Korean flag, said that the one found in Flags of Maritime Nations is presumed to be one displayed when the Treaty of Chemulpo between Korea’s Chosun Dynasty and the United States was signed on May 22, 1882.

The oldest picture of the Korean flag was a black-and-white drawing found in the October 10, 1882 edition of the Japanese newspaper, Jijishinpo. It is labeled as the Chosun flag.

Flags of Maritime Nations lists color pictures of flags from 49 nations in alphabetical order. Newssports (talk) 09:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Something Else

Hi every one, this site is so *giggles in background* good! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.114.154 (talk) 09:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Superfluous file

I see a collection image of three old version flag uploaded by Phoenix7777 (talk · contribs). Although there are no problem file itself, it have reason for removing at one time.

This article described about South Korean flag, and it is no more need to put the old version picture on this article. In addition, one of old version flag including flag of Qing tributary comment, which seems that there is doubt about his intended by comparison on the Talk:Joseon Dynasty, are some doubtful aspects.--Historiographer (talk) 09:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Historiographer, I am sorry but I don't understand your explanation probably because of a language problem. I didn't upload the image but simply reverted an edit by a block evading sockpuppet of Philip126[1]. I only added a caption of the image.[2][3]. The image was placed in the History section so the old version is quite adequate to be there. The image came from a notable Korean newspaper The Chosun Ilbo[4] and United States Navy Dept.[5]. I know why Korean editors dislike this image because the flag listed in the Chinese book has a description "Qing's tributary state" (大清国属). However whether the description is comfortable or not for Korean editors, It is an undeniable fact of Korean history and the image is backed by the reliable sources, unless any effective objection to include the image, I will restore the image and the caption. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

The exact link seems to be http://www.archive.org/stream/ofmaritimeflagsn00unitrich#page/n45/mode/2up (though that's not to the 1882 edition). As far as I understand it, the main objections to File:Flag_of_old_Korea.jpg are that the left and center represent Japanese and Chinese ideas of the Korean flag (rather than the Korean definition of the flag), while the right is not actually the Korean flag as such, but something different (though related) -- see File:Flag of the king of Joseon.svg. -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:06, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The flag by United States Navy Dept.[6] is also United States' idea of Korean flag (rather than the Korean definition of the flag). ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:31, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, the link you provided was not to the 1882 edition. According to Chosun Ilbo, File:Taegukgi.jpg is the earliest surviving depiction of the flag, and so of historical interest for that reason... AnonMoos (talk) 12:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are talking about. English Chosun.com said a flag is "The oldest Taegukgi, the national flag of Korea, was found. This version is listed in Flags of Maritime Nations, published by the Bureau of Navigation at the U.S. Navy Department in July 1882. This version uses the four trigrams from the Book of Changes. Until now, Park Yeong-hyo was known as the first person to use four trigrams from the Book of Changes. The flag was published two or three months before Park moved to Japan." and other flags are "national flag of Chosun printed in Japanese newspaper Jijishinpo on Oct. 2, 1882. One in the right is the "national flag of Goryeo" mentioned in a diplomatic document of the Ching Dynasty, dated March 1883."[7] So the all flags mentioned are not Korean official flags. The opinion that the flag other than the oldest flag should not be in the article is not persuasive. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 13:09, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Hoax

This edit is a possibly hoax.

Before 1883, there was no official national flag of the Kingdom of Korea when this country was under the protection of China. In 1882, Korean ambassador Bak Yeong-hyo to Japan requested the Chinese government allow him to use flag of the Qing Empire as the flag of Korea, but was refused by Qing government. So, the Chinese commissioner in Korea Mr. Ma Jian-zhong suggested the Korean government use the Chinese Taiji-Bagua flag as the national flag of Kingdom of Korea, the Korean government accepted this suggestion then began to use the flag officially in 1883; some modifications were made in later years. The flag ceased to be used during the Japanese occupation and became the national flag of South Korea again after the independence of South Korea in later of 1940s

Baike.Baidu.com is not a reliable source. It is a Chinese version wikipedia. Anyone can edit without verification. It is still doubt that original reference is trusted source. I checked original reference.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/227631.htm

In baike.baidu.com, Very first Original Reference are only 2.

1.http://www.yhlshxx.com/printpage.asp?ArticleID=346

this reference link is dead.

2.http://travel2.enorth.com.cn/jjzt/fifa/hg/xuzhi_8.htm

travel2.enorth.com.cn site is not a acadmic site. neverthless, this referennce never mentioned that.

This hoax is well known in Chinese internet. However, I must point out that why these source are Wrong.

by Wikipedia:Verifiability, I removed it.

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

---

In 1882, Korean ambassador Bak Yeong-hyo to Japan requested the Chinese government allow him to use flag of the Qing Empire as the flag of Korea, but was refused by Qing government.

This is not true. On the contrary, Qing requested the Korea government use similar style of the Qing Empire flag as the flag of Korea. but Korea goverment opposed it.

According to 1882.10.2 Japanese newspaper 時事新報 text,

馬建忠が朝鮮の國旗は支那に從ひ三角形の靑地に龍を書くべし 本國支那は黃色を用るども朝鮮は支那の東方に當る邦たるを以て東は靑色を貴ぶの意によ り靑地を用ふべしと指示したるに國王は大に之を憤み決し て支那の國旗に倣ふべからぬとして四角形の玉色地に太極の圖(二つ巴繪)を 靑赤にて書き旗の四隅に東西南北の易卦を附けたるを 自今朝鮮の國旗と定むる旨沙汰せられたりとあり」 [8]

-translation- "Ma Jianzhong suggest korea use national falg as Qing dynsaty style. King Gojong upset by this absurd claim, He do not want Qing dynasty style flag. He ordered national falg by thier own which cleary diffrece from Qing."

This record is 1882 Japanese news paper, this record is more reliable. because same time period record and 3rd party record. so it is reliable. Chinese side reocrd made by thier sinocentrism. possibly fabrication. or internet made fabrication?

First design of Taegeuk style flag designed by Lee ung Jeyun. He disngend first Taegeuk style flag which four trigrams. However, Ma Jianzhong opposed this design. and he redisgned Taegeki which eight trigrams. Later, Park Yong Hyo, decide to use Taegeuk style flag which four trigrams. Newssports (talk) 16:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

We do not need internet bullshit.

Here is the 時事新報 original text and flag image.[9] "Flag of Joseon"Newssports (talk) 06:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The translation, however, is not correct. And it is also true that the korea was under protection of Qing Dynasty at that time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.189.96.77 (talk) 17:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry a bit late, however I have something to add. :P

QUOTE: "Baike.Baidu.com is not a reliable source. It is a Chinese version wikipedia. Anyone can edit without verification."

Not entirely correct - not everyone can edit it, like you can with Wikipedia. Once you make an addition, it has to be verified before it is published, which usually takes about 24 to 48 hours (this ensures an iron grip on information, e.g. so that Taiwan Independence activists don't vandalize, etc etc). Just to make sure everyone has the full idea. :D -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 12:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Baike. Baidu.com is NOT a reliable source. The 24-48 hour wait period is used more for censorship of dissenting opinions, rather than fact-checking. 216.165.35.121 (talk) 06:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

---

Hoax or not, the Chinese Wikipedia version still has it. The English and Chinese version must be consistent. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:01, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Why "must" they be consistent? -- AnonMoos (talk) 12:47, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

At least one of them is wrong. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 16:58, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I also agree that citing another Wikipedia/wiki like site (such as Baike.baidu) is a very bad idea since anything can be added, regardless if there is a time frame or not. Plus, so what the Chinese Wikipedia has it; it doesn't mean we have to have it. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 17:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Let me rephrase myself. I just read my own message and now I realize how that can be interpreted in the wrong way. I don't really know about the subject and perhaps I'm not that interested in it to be frank. But contradiction bothers me. And it should bother any sensible editors. The end goal is not about making two Wikipedias consistent. The goal is not to port Chinese Wikipedia to English blindly, or vice versa. The end goal is to find out which one is correct (or closer to truth), and correct the false one. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 20:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

References

Discrepancies on the Meaning of the Trigrams

According to the Flags of the World article on the ROK flag, the trigrams are called Kwae. The ones used on the ROK flag are called KUN, YI, KAM, KON, which differs from the names used in the article (i.e.: GEON, RI, GAM, GON) but that might be a transliteration thing. What I am concerned about is the meaning of these symbols. According to the Flags of the World article, which quotes an official site from South Korea, the GEON (or KUN) symbol represents HEAVEN, and not METAL.

Could someone that understands this flag better than I do please shine some knowledge? Thank you --Pinnecco (talk) 21:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I think "heaven" is the same as what's shown as "sky" in the table. For the standard Chinese meanings, see Ba gua... AnonMoos (talk) 00:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so because it is talking about the ELEMENTS. That is along with water and fire, etc. It even mentions in the article itself just below the table of the trigrams: "Traditionally, the four trigrams are related to the Five Elements of fire, water, earth, wood, and metal. An analogy could also be drawn with the four western classical elements." --Pinnecco (talk) 03:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"Heaven" is not one of the traditional classical Chinese five elements (it's not in the list you provided in your own remarks). If you notice any significant discrepancy between the table in this article and the listings in Ba gua and Wu Xing, then that could certainly be a problem, but I don't think that what you've said so far indicates such a discrepancy. AnonMoos (talk) 08:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Well I am not an expert in Taoism, although it does fascinates me. Have a look at Flags of the World for their explanation, and please let us know if you see any discrepancy. I am actually trying to research the meanings of this flag. What better way than helping with a Wikipedia article? =) --Pinnecco (talk) 00:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Pinnecco-- Korean uses an alphabet called Hangul. Either of the spellings you listed above can be considered acceptable romanizations of the Korean spelling of these symbols. As the article suggests, the four symbols on the flag also have multiple layers of meaning. Heaven is a common interpretation of geon--commonly pronounced chun. The words for chun may mean either heaven (as in the heavens) or sky. Hanul, however, is the Korean word that equates with the western religious idea of heaven —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.119.195 (talk) 01:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Gentlemen, Actually, you are both partially right and both partially wrong. The different Romanization approaches are historical in nature; however, the Republic of Korea has adopted a standardized approach to Romanization, so let's use that. The first entry row in the table is about the trigram 건(乾) which is correctly Romanized as geon, not to be confused with the character 천(天) which is correctly Romanized as cheon. There is a problem with the Element column of this row. The entry is confusing because it has the English word, Heaven, and the Hanja (漢字) character 天, but the Hangeul (한글) meaning of 목 (mok) which means wood. Something is really wrong. This trigram (☰) is associated with the sky or heaven in "Nature" and with the "Element" metal. So the entry for this trigram in the Element column should read "Metal, 금 (geum), 金" which would be the correct English, 한글 (Romanized pronunciation), and 漢字, respectively. Further, the heading of "Four Elements" is bothersome because there happen to be five elements or movements (五行, wu3 xing1 in PinYin), but wood (木, Mok) is not represented in this set of four trigrams. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OSuBon (talk • contribs) 06:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Potential defacing?

The name of the flag in the right of the page, I believe should be Taegeukgi judging by the content of the page. Instead it said "llamas of pwnage" which I would be surprised if that was correct. I would guess someone defaced the page so I edited it back. Now looking at the version history (which I should have done first!) it looks like it was a recent edit (22:32, 6 August 2012) by an anonymous user (74.61.42.117). Something to look out for with future edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iansocool (talk • contribs)

It's usually better to take advantage of the software "revert" feature in such cases of simple recent vandalism, rather than to try to re-edit it from scratch into what you think might be correct... AnonMoos (talk) 05:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

China and Chinese not mentioned

We all know how much China has influenced Korea and not even a single word in this article? This is stupid. Yin and yang, Trigrams are from China obviously. Its a shame for you guys and Korean to ignore these facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.19.136.90 (talk) 18:03, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Because the main focus was to discuss the design of the flag having these symbols. The history of these symbols all by themselves should be at their respective articles, and which they do mention Chinese usage. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:28, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I am afraid I have to disagree with you. Unless the History part is not included in this article. Korean don't take all the credits for the design.

Trigram contradiction

For the 3 full bars (geon/건/乾), the English Wikipedia says the element is heaven/목/木. I'm sure heaven is not 木, which is tree. The Chinese Wikipedia says the same trigram represents gold/금/金. Which one is true? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 17:12, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

In traditional Chinese I Ching symbolism, 3 unbroken bars is heaven, while 3 broken bars are earth (see Ba gua). I really don't know if such symbolism may have been modified in Korea... AnonMoos (talk) 19:46, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The full three bars mean Heaven, which on the Bagua is associated with the Metal element. Thus the flag included four of the five elements. The only missing element is Wood. Another way to look at it is that it includes Heaven (father) & Earth (mother), plus the two primary elements, Fire and Water. Annbgallops (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

The full three bars mean Heaven in (자연(卦象), Nature), while "Four elements" is another system based on Wu Xing (오행(五行), Five elements), which only contains Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water. Therefore it could be an obvious mistake to include Heaven in 오행(五行) system. --Ericmetro (talk) 07:22, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

This page is outdated

This page is outdated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.251.198.178 (talk) 00:37, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Ratio

How did the ratio 3:2 become possible? Usually the length is greater than the height.

112.198.90.56 (talk) 08:25, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Changed Colors

Hello, I have updated the colors. To see my process of converting the CIE Yxy coordinates directly to RGB, please check the relevant Talk section in Wikimedia Commons here: c:File_talk:Flag_of_South_Korea.svg#Proposal:_A_more_direct_interpretation_of_colors_specified_in_the_Flag_Act

Reepy1 (talk) 05:45, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Name

Many countries call South Korea by this name. In constitutional terms, this page heading needs to go by its official name, the Republic of Korea because a number of government documents had refer to it such as the Statutes of the ROK. Supreme Dragon (talk) 21:15, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (countries)... -- AnonMoos (talk) 02:02, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Why on earth should this heading "need to go by its official name"? Of course the government documents of South Korea refer to the flag as the flag of ROK. That does not dictate how Wikipedia treats the name. Even the "Flag of the Republic of Macedonia" article does not have the heading "Republic of Macedonia" in the infobox, just "Macedonia" (and definitely not "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" either). Supreme Dragon: Also please read WP:BRD. When your bold edit was reverted, you should not reinstate your version your version before discussing in the talk page. Please self revert until consensus is reached. --T*U (talk) 07:22, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

We should use the common name over the offical name whenever possible. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 07:32, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2020

Change: "Ma Jianzhong proposed that Korea adopt a modified version of the flag of the Qing dynasty, but Kojong argued strongly against it as it implied Qing subordination. Kim Hong-jip then proposed a flag complementing Kojong's royal standard, with a white background, a half-red and half-black circle in the center, and eight black bars around the circle."

To: "Ma Jianzhong proposed that Korea adopt a modified version of Kojong's royal standard, with a white background, a half-red and half-black taegeuk in the center, and the bagua around the taegeuk. Kim Hong-jip proposed a plan to change the red color to blue and white." Viperbongs (talk) 15:36, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

The first source, the Academy of Korean Studies, clearly states that it is Ma Jianzhong (마젠충은) who proposes the suggestions that Kim Hong-jip is attributed to have made.

"이 때 마젠충은 백저(白底)에 중앙에 반홍반흑(半紅半黑)의 태극도(太極圖)와 그 둘레에 팔도(八道)를 뜻하는 흑색의 팔괘(八卦) 및 홍색의 주연(周緣)이 있는 도식을 제안하였다." [출처: 한국민족문화대백과사전(태극기(太極旗))]

I was about update the article as per requested as what you have presented checks out. However, the sentence to be replaced, that asserts the Ma Jianzhong proposed to use a modified version of the Qing flag, is a recent edition. @CentreLeftRight: Would you like to explain your edits [10] and [11] that completely flipped the meaning of the sentence? How was it a mistranslation? – robertsky (talk) 20:03, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

@Robertsky: Looks like I made two big mistakes; not carefully reading the sources originally given and not realising that particular part of the IP additions I tried to remedy conflicted with the original material. I myself will revert the name back to Ma Jianzhong, and if anyone has objections they can voice them here. All the best, CentreLeftRight ✉ 21:13, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

@CentreLeftRight: all's good. honest mistakes are easy to resolve. :) I think we can close this request since the intent was just to fix the error, and it has been done. – robertsky (talk) 02:29, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Lede: the link to trigrams

Its current destination, I_Ching#Trigrams, deals mainly with hexagrams. How about Bagua? 37.47.228.49 (talk) 06:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Taegeukgi

Taegeukgi 197.184.169.102 (talk) 16:29, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Ahn's Taegukgi flag

I made a new cleaned up Verison of the flag
Averan Republic (talk) 16:24, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

The kwae's and their cardinal directions

In the design section, the four kwae's are related to the cardinal directions as follows: geon - east ri - south gam - north gon - west (added by user 210.217.61.239 on the 19th of June 2006).

Can anyone verify this information?

When I search for more information, I encounter mainly two different versions of the trigrams: the "earlier heaven" and the "later heaven" (see for instance this wikipage or this one.

In the former ("earlier heaven"), the relation between kwae's and cardinal directions are the following: geon - south ri - east gam - west gon - north

In the latter ("later heaven"), the relation is the following: geon - northwest ri - south gam - north gon - southwest

I've found a few other pages (for instance this one) that give the same information as this wikipage, but they're of a more unofficial (bloglike) nature and I suspect that they've drawn on the information from this wikipage.

I hope someone can clarify.

Minho78 (talk) 13:22, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree. The primary source for the meanings of the trigrams, https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/korea-south/, has no actual information on the relationship to the cardinal directions. EsotericNitpic (talk) 16:55, 30 October 2022 (UTC)