Talk:Flag of Dorset/Archive 1

Archive 1

This article is misleading

I was one of the initial creators of this flag. It is NOT the flag of Dorset, it has not been endorsed in any way, shape or form. It doesn't even exist in any printed or woven form!

The only flag currently on sale is a white backgrounded, with three red lions on it - somewhat similar to the county council seal. 87.127.178.28 (talk) 10:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I have updated this page with all the correct facts regarding the Dorset 'flags'.87.127.178.28 (talk) 15:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Salvaging this Article

I note, with regret, that this article has been nominated for speedy deletion. Whilst I agree that this article suffers from a tremendous PoV bias in both content and structure, I feel that this is a valid article for inclusion in a dynamic encyclopaedia.

I believe the article may be valid given the following changes:

• Heavy editing and movement of the "Involvement of Dorset County Council" section to form an informative background paragraph, giving a more chronological account of events, after the introduction section (i.e. making it the first sub-headed section).
• Editing of the introduction section to better describe the issue in an NPOV manner.
• Editing to remove any favourable references to "St. Wite's Cross" (or its current designation).
• Heavy editing to remove, or make objective, any subjective references to the design of "St. Wite's Cross" (or its current designation).
• Possibly an additional section to objectively describe the competition to design the flag of dorset.

I hope that this stimulates some debate and leads to this article being reprieved. With no objections I shall make such an edit next week. Speedy McG (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead mate. I think Dorsetpatriot is a little hasty to delete the page. 80.195.146.94 (talk) 10:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I apologise for my efforts - I did try to make this NPOV, but it looks like I failed. I haven't said anything in the article which isn't true though. Please make edits Speedy - but I see no reason to delete the article. White43 (talk) 16:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I've had a go at re-doing this article. 87.127.178.28 (talk) 23:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Self interest

This page is clearly set up as a self-interest page of Mr White, who is obviosuly pushing for this flag to be accepted as the official flag. A flag should be voted on by the residents of Dorset, not by someone who, seemingly, has his own commercial interests at heart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.238.70.142 (talk) 10:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Care to back those slanderous allegations up? White43 (talk) 12:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Slander: to falsely report maliciously. Can't see why the statement should be slanderous as the one contentitious remark about commercial interests is preceded by "seemingly", which converts the comment to an observation or belief of the writer. All the other remarks appear to be perfectly accurate. Dorsetpatriot (talk) 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

From this page http://dorsetflag.webs.com/rollofhonour.htm : "Any surplus income generated from this not for profit enterprise will be donated to Dorset based projects and good causes." 87.127.178.28 (talk) 17:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Flag for Dorset

Shout the most, spend the most money, and hope that your design becomes the flag for Dorset by default! This should be a fair and open competition with public judging. However, as the competition is informal, with no official support from any governing body in Dorset, it needs to be taken up by the media to run the "beauty contest". Dorsetpatriot (talk) 18:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this page is not about the Flag for Dorset and should be retitled "St Wite's Flag" to be accurate about its content. Dorsetpatriot (talk) 08:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

This page reflects the current situation with regards to the flag in Dorset. There is our flag, there is a banner of arms of the DCC and there is the Council involvement - what more do you want exactly? White43 (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I've significantly rewritten this article to better illustrate the current events. White43 (talk) 15:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I am surprised to even see this in Wikipedia. It has not got historical value, promotes an idea of an individual (or small group of individuals) and is usually deleted under Wikipedia rules.Dorsetpatriot (talk) 15:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

So, you feel that flag of devon and flag of wiltshire should equally be deleted? It is about a flag of Dorset - this represents a large group of people does it not? 87.127.178.28 (talk) 17:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The page, as at 5th June, has greatly improved from its first submission. It still is not a proper encyclopedia entry as it is currently a news story about a competition for a flag and is promoting a single competitor. Only the Dorset County Council flag (entry elsewhere) is proper for inclusion on this site. Mr White has hijacked Wikipedia to promote his design, when he should have found a blog to do so.Dorsetpatriot (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The county council arms is not the flag of Dorset, never has been so should NOT be included on this page. I fail to see how it promotes a single competitor - that flag is fairly high profile now, unlike all the other entries, the campaign began way before this contest. The county council only became involved as a result of that campaign - and that is fact. 80.195.146.94 (talk) 10:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What you say(Dorsetpatriot) is unproven and untrue. When this article was created, there was a commercial flag in circulation - a banner of the arms of Dorset County Council and an independent campaign- ours. That was it. Two unofficial flags in circulation and this page reflected that. Since then, the county council have blundered their way into the whole thing(as of April 23rd 2008) and only did so because of what we were doing. Whether it is a contender or not, it is a high profile alternate unofficial flag of Dorset - it is being used by the people of Dorset as a flag of Dorset. One would think Mr DorsetPatriot - that you would clear this article up if you're so unhappy with it - given that there will actually be a Flag Of Dorset selected in the next few months. Deletion is an exercise in futility White43 White43 (talk) 12:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I see some of the comments disagreeing with me have widely missed the point. Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia and not a newsletter or blog. The article has been greatly toned down since its original entry but I still hold it has no value in this location. It is promotional of a single design in a competition to be the official flag of Dorset. The other counties mentioned in the discussions have passed the deliberation stage and can rightfully be included - they are now historical fact. This flag, firstly St Wite's flag then renamed the Dorset Cross is a matter of the creator's opinion. I will have no objection to an entry once the deliberations are over and a flag chosen. Otherwise, all flags entered to be the official flag should have their own entry in Wikipedia - clearly a nonsense. Mr White calls the banner of the arms of Dorset County Council an unofficial flag. This is misleading in his context. The banner exists and is recognised - as the banner of Dorset County Council. It is not anything other than that, but as it exists officially, it can be mentioned appropriately on Wikipedia. To make an analogy, where is the page that claims David Cameron is Prime Minister? Dorsetpatriot (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The flag does not claim to be the flag of Dorset - it states this. It says it wants is a contender and commerical availability of this flag set it apart from the other entries. It is recognised and used in the same way as the Armorial Banner of the County Arms. Except that the banner is not a flag of Dorset - nor can it be(it is a banner of only DCC, not Bournemouth or Poole Boroughs). I maintain deleting this article is an exercise in futility since there will be an 'official' flag of Dorset in the next few months - if it is not the Dorset Cross, I'm fairly sure that flag is not going to just disappear - like the armorial banner won't either. This article is about 'flag of Dorset' - well, what if there is more than one in circulation - like there is right now - neither of them are officially sanctioned, but they exist. This article should discuss all flags used and in circulation. 87.127.178.28 (talk) 20:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Also your analogy is not quite right. There is a prime minister of the UK, hence why Cameron isn't mentioned. There isn't a flag of Dorset, but there are commerically available 'Dorset flags' - two to be precise, even if they aren't official. If there was no PM of the UK, then you'd talk about the contenders - or at least the highest profile ones. I think we should let the user above make his edits to 'salvage' the page, but I reiterate - deleting this page is pointless, it would be recreated in a month or so. 87.127.178.28 (talk) 22:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Since this entry has had more face lifts than Joan Rivers, it must difficult for new readers to understand the fuss. This page started off with one intention - to promote the St Wite's design (renamed as the Dorset Cross - both titles creations of the promoters) as a flag for Dorset. It has never been, and is still not, an entry that without bias, discusses the true and total situation that a form of contest exist and that there are numerous entries (none of which are mentioned). I agree with the writer above that "This article should discuss all flags used and in circulation" and it doesn't. Research shows a number of unofficial flags claiming to represent Dorset, not to mention Dorset affiliated flags such as military and recognised non-political organisations. Recommending this page for deletion has achieved some of what I hoped, a discussion, serious re-editing, and openness. I look forward to a proper entry when the chosen design is accepted, such as the Devon Flag entry.Dorsetpatriot (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You look forward to? I'm sorry, but one would assume that as you'd made all the fuss to start with - that you'd be making the changes? Why didn't you just do that in the first place rather than all this nonsense? Also, what other commerical flags of Dorset are there - - that are just that - a flag of Dorset, not political, military or non-political? 87.127.178.28 (talk) 08:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I refer the writer above to my comments on the Deletion page - I did try to edit into factual information, which was then re-edited each time by the sponsors of the St Wite's Flag. Deletion enables the slate to be wiped and an accurate page to be re-instated once there really is a Dorset Flag.Dorsetpatriot (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Deletion is pointless. There is already a history going on right now and Wikipedia is the place to put that. Wiki is dynamic and is updated all the time. Now as already stated to you, at least two of us wish to see this page continue. Someone has offered to re-edit the page. I suggest you allow this to happen and in the future, if you have objections, voice this on this discussion page. If you edits are reverted, then ask why on this page. This is good Wikipedian practice. You can also see why your edits are reverted by looking at the history of the main article, good practice usually places a reason there. Now, lets concentrate on the positive and getting the page correct. Yes? 87.127.178.28 (talk) 16:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Dorsetpatriot - It was never my intention to mislead or 'advertise'. I tried to re-edit this page to make it NPOV and you agreed it was much improved - now obviously I'm too close to this thing to be objective - but I agree with other comments here - lets allow Speedy to make changes as he's indicated. I've never said anything inaccurate on this page and tried to stick to the facts. But I agree with the above - Wikipedia is dynamic and allows history to be recorded as it occurs - history is being made right now with the Dorset Flag, so lets record that, rather than deleting it. White43 (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I've done a substantial rewrite that is hopefully more NPOV. Can we have some comments please? I can't get the images correct - can anyone else help? 87.127.178.28 (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It took a long time to get here but for the first time, the page is what it should have been at the start. Provided there is no reversion to the earlier style, I remove my request for deletion. Dorsetpatriot (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with this page is simply an advertisement for Mr Whites flag idea, not very well dressed up as a factual wikipedia entry. I am going to suggest a mark for deletion as it's far away from NPOV and instead more corporate vanity and seems unsalvagable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supcom (talk • contribs) 23:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This page has been through numerous rewrites - the Dorset Cross is commercially available - like the banner of the DCC arms - hence why it is here. It also happens to be a contender. The majority of the article deals with the current process - so I see no need for deletion or this aggressive behaviour.White43 (talk) 09:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

now would probably be a good time to remind editors of wikipedias policies - i.e. corporate vanity and POV articals are not valid. If you wish to make this page a blog then it is neither valid or acceptable as a wikipedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supcom (talk • contribs) 01:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Supcom Edits

'Corporate Vanity' seems to be your buzzword and you're unnecessarily applying it to Flag of Dorset. The page is in no way corporate vanity as it gives the facts surrounding the Dorset flag. Now, it has been confirmed that the Dorset Cross IS a contender, this in a PR release by the editor of Dorset Life Magazine - the others are not confirmed, only by word of mouth. The Dorset Life editor was one of the panelists who selected it. So, how is it corporate vanity to put this on the page? Also, why did you move the discussion page?

A flag of Dorset exists in two unofficial capacities already - the DCC armorial banner is one and the Dorset Cross being another - both are available to the public, hence existing as flags of Dorset, so the title of the article is correct and is not corporate vanity. The page was OK'd by other editors as not POV, so I suggest you make discussions first before moving the page or cutting huge sections out. White43 (talk) 12:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

In addition, it is not good Wikipedia practice to make these edits without discussion first. It would be more constructive to point to the 'offending' material and then discuss. White43 (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Is this corporate vanity?

User Supcom is claiming that this article is 'corporate vanity', is it?

You very much appear to be using this aritical as a vehicle for your own flag contender in the much the same way as a Blog. Before you get upset that others are stopping you from doing this, I strongly suggest (again) that you read Wkipedias policies on editting pages, style and construction. Unless you use verifiable - and that does not mean your campaigns / personal blog, the entry is not valid and will be removed.

Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL*.

Supcom (talk) 09:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

That's fair enough. One thing I will say though - you are approaching this article as if there has only ever been a Dorset flag competition and that it began there. It didn't. It firstly began with the armorial banner, which provoked our response of the Dorset Cross. For months there was no competition and it later became the council's response to what we were doing. Now as ours and the armorial banner are on sale as flags of Dorset - this should be mentioned IMPO. Wimborne Town Council have endorsed the Dorset Cross as flag of Dorset. Are you saying that that is insignificant? Bearing in mind that the council has no authority whatsoever to create an official flag - with only the Queen and the College of Arms able to do that, any winner of the competition (that isn't our design) will be no more official. As our flag already has hundreds of sales - does that mean that there could be two flags of Dorset? What I'm saying is that ours is already a flag of Dorset and is being used as such - the armorial banner gets a mention, so why can't we? If ours wasn't on sale - I wouldn't expect to see it here - but as it is and pre-dates the competition and people are using it, do you not think that makes it a special case? 87.127.178.28 (talk) 10:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this page may be unsalvagable as your response just reinforces that you are using this page a vehicle for commercial and personal ideas under the guise of the topic. See {{WP:SOAP}}. Please remember that (a) this isn't your "personal page" (b) it must only contain verifiable facts from 3rd parties (c) it must be written from a NPOV standpoint. For more information see {{WP:NOT}}Supcom (talk) 10:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

No, you are utterly missing the point. This page is about 'flag' of Dorset. It should reflect what there is currently available to Dorset and any background including the competition. Of which there are two flags - now it seems that you are discriminating against one of those flags - why? If you are going to remove information about the Dorset Cross, then you should be removing info about the Armorial Banner. The Dorset Cross is not simply a contender, it exists in a tangible form and people are using it as they are the Armorial Banner. Your responses are strange as well - above users were quite happy with the page after several overhauls.

I have requested a third party examine this and have made requests for comments as I personally think you are not acting NPOV and are using 'corporate vanity' to discriminate against one of the flags, which suggests you have an agenda.87.127.178.28 (talk) 11:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Put very simply - how can you have an article about flag of Dorset and not mention the Dorset Cross? It was the flag that began the whole thing. I won't edit the article anymore for apparent COI, but surely? White43 (talk) 15:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

again - opinion and conjecture. Whilst I have no problem with your particular flag being mentioned in the wider context of the on-going competition and the recent history, it must be balanced by equally mentioning all the other flags that are claimed to be a flag of Dorset or in the competition. Even the title can be construed as POV, as there is neither one official flag for Dorset nor can there be without legal due process - something that is outside the remit of both the competition and your personal campaign. However I consider that the article as it stands is close to NPOV. While I can understand you want to see your flag as THE Dorset Flag, until such time as that is fact (or defacto) it should not be mentioned as such in Wikipedia. For further info please refer to "Salvaging this Article" paragraph,the help, or previously mentioned tags such as {{WP:NOT}} Supcom (talk) 16:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

But that's just it- that particular design is not the same as the other flags is it? They are concepts on pieces of paper - that design, like the armorial banner does exist. If it doesn't win, it will still continue to exist - unlike the other entrants which will just cease. I think in terms of what is available out there - if you're going to mention the armorial banner, you should mention the Dorset Cross. Or remove the banner - as that could be construed as advertising that particular flag.87.127.178.28 (talk) 18:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a source of information on a huge range of issues and topics, many of which do not get an airing in conventional references; it is particularly useful in providing details on obscure flags across the planet that are not often featured in standard works. Included in Wikipedia’s annals are the flags for example, of Khuzestani Arabs, ethnic Somalis in Kenya, the Bakonjo of Uganda, the Turks of western Thrace – some decidedly obscure banners but I am grateful to Wikipedia contributors for providing information on these myriad groups which allows me to know exactly whom these designs represent and understand the context when I see them aloft on news reports and elsewhere. Why therefore are we to be denied similar access to information concerning the extant flag in the English county of Dorset? The fact is that a gold flag with a red edged white cross, designated the “Dorset Cross”, can be seen flying across the county; it is also a fact that the town council in the Dorset town of Wimborne has embraced this as their preferred county flag. The design is therefore a tangible reality, that has evident popularity and the full support of a local authority, what factor in these circumstances makes the Dorset Cross ineligible for inclusion in Wikipedia? One might argue that the Dorset Cross is not an official flag - how many of the examples cited above can claim to be official? The four snakes and cross flag depicted in the entry on Martinique in fact specifically states that this is an “unofficial region flag” however, one presumes that it actually flies in the island i.e. it exists and is possessed of a certain popularity and is therefore worthy of note. How does the circumstance in Dorset differ? As in Martinique, the Dorset Cross flag is not official; as in Martinque, the flag can be seen flying in many places, how is this flag then not worthy of mention or depiction in Wikipedia? A trawl across the internet reveals that there are two flags currently commercially available as Dorset flags – one is a banner of the arms of the County Council, which design the general public is not legally entitled to fly, the other is the Dorset Cross, which the public demonstrably are flying but this reality is not being reflected in Wikipedia, where we currently have an illustration of the banner of the arms but none of the Dorset Cross – this strikes me as imbalanced and tendentious. The Dorset Cross is a contender in a current competition held under the auspices of the Dorset County Council to select a flag that they will themselves endorse. The competition itself is of course worthy of mention and when all the contenders are revealed they should of course all appear in Wikipedia but the fact is that notwithstanding said competition, the Dorset Cross is already flying and predates the competition and Wikipedia, in not allowing its depiction is guilty of misinformation. One relies on Wikipedia to advise that the flag of the Dinka is a five striped horizontal design and takes such advice on good faith; how odd therefore that one should not be similarly able to consult this resource on a flag that one can see flying in the streets and all about.User:Vexilo 18:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll say that we should wait until there actually is a "Flag of Dorset" before making an article on it. It seems the process is incomplete. See WP:Crystal Ball. Combined with possible COI, why not cut it down to the basics, and wait to see if something actually happens?

Smallbones (talk) 23:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

There already are flags of Dorset. One of them is being shown, the other isn't. The public may select another, but it makes it no more 'official' than the other two. White43 (talk) 07:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

having stumbled over this article, and read the too-ing and fro-ing, I felt compelled to sign up and comment. Looking at the history It looks like this entry started as a blog. AFAIK there is no Dorset flag (i've never seen one!) but it also appears that while there is no public,tribal or political consensus on a flag of Dorset (invalidating Vexillos argument) it cannot be disputed - looking at the contributors here - that the St Wites Flag(?) is being promoted by a small group of individuals who are unilaterally attempting to get it adopted as the country flag. Thus I think it would be a good idea to include it in the article from that angle. So long as it is written from a neutral viewpoint, and doesn't claim to be the flag of Dorset just the flag adopted/designed by the self styled campaign group, I see no problem. PooleLad (talk) 08:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I need to clarify I few things here. The group of individuals were attempting to get the Dorset Cross(also known as St Wite's Cross) adopted after the county council threw out the idea of a county flag last year. After the Dorset Cross started hitting the press (namely the Dorset/Daily/Bridport Echos, Western Daily Press, Western Gazette, Blackmore Vale, later Meridian Tonight) and even appearing on the front cover of the Ferndown Directory), DCC reversed the decision and announced a county-wide competition. The difference being that the Dorset Cross, alike the Banner of the CC Arms are available, tangible flags being used county-wide already. They both pre-date the competition, (although the Dorset Cross is part of that competition now) - but this page shouldn't start on the assumption that the background of the 'flag of Dorset' began with the competition. So my question is why is the banner allowed to appear on this Wiki page(as part of the background), but the Dorset Cross is denied? It is not 'opinion or conjecture', it is fact that the Dorset Cross, although not official(alike the banner) IS a ,flag of Dorset(even if unofficial) and is being used right now as such and even adopted by at least one local authority, Which is more than can be said about the banner! White43 (talk) 09:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

    That's what I was alluding to - just not in the same POV way. I think what you are saying can be 
    included *if* (and this is the important bit) it's from a neutral, 3rd party viewpoint. 
    If I get time I will do it myself. The armorial banner is "official" in that it represents the county
    BUT can only be flown by the council as they are the only ones "legally" (bizarre rule?) allowed.
    Or so says google. PooleLad (talk) 10:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That's fine PooleLad - I'm avoiding making edits myself due to COI - would appreciate you doing it. As for the banner - it is the official arms of Dorset County Council - not Dorset, so therefore owned by the CC, not Dorset and can only be used by them or their representatives. When being flown - it represents them only. Given that we have two unitary authorities - the banner doesn't represent Poole or Bournemouth Boroughs at all. White43 (talk) 12:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

sounds sensible if properly referenced. will remove the COI after. Supcom (talk) 21:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

This is becoming even more relevant now - people are selling this design on Ebay! 87.127.178.28 (talk) 10:57, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Message from WP:3O

Greetings from 3rd Opinion. I'm sorry, but I don't think WP:3O applies here because there seem to be multiple editors involved in the dispute. Per WP:3O " If, after discussion, only two editors are involved, you may list the dispute below in the Active disagreements section. Otherwise, please follow other methods in the dispute resolution process."

I think you need to work out a consensus, and if all else fails, you can try Wikipedia:COIN, the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard, or continue with you RfC and possible mediation if nothing can get worked out. Good luck! Livitup (talk) 19:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Keeping original wording for vote candidate descriptions

I was the chairman of the panel that shortlisted the four designs for the people of Dorset to vote on. I also added the four designs, along with the text that was submitted with each design before the shortlisting, to this page. The designer of one of the shortlisted entrants wants to change the text that appears under their design. As Chief Vexillologist I have decided that in the interest of fairness no changes should be made to the designs or the accompanying text now that they have been shortlisted. The text was considered as part of the shortlisting process and if different text had been supplied a design may or may not have been included in the shortlist - it's a bit like asking to change your answers in an exam after the marks have been announced. So I have undone the change made to the page to modify the text. If anyone has a problem with this please contact me at chiefvexillologist@flaginstitute.org. The affected party is of course free to add an additional section to the "Flag of Dorset" page that explains why they wish to change the text and what they now want to say, but I would appreciate it if they would leave the four candidate entries as they are. Also feel free to tell me if you think I'm being overly cautious! GrahamPadruig (talk) 00:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

12/16 January edits

I re-reverted the additions by User:81.159.212.253 and User:Pmsmythe because they are inaccurate in their implications and a sole opinion, not encyclopaedic content. I will state at the outset that I am not from Dorset.

No British county flag can be official as such. It can only be accepted. The closest it can come to "official" status is being entered on the UK Flags Register, as the St Wite's Cross flag has been.

The edits by the above user(s) imply a procedural failure, invalidating the flag. However there is no procedure which can make it official and so no procedural failure. The edit gives no more than that user's personal ideas for making a flag look more official. It is pure invention.

Points to note specifically:

• The adoption of a flag is outwith the powers of any local authority, whether alone or with others. It can only promote an idea for acceptance or organise a competition, as in Dorset.
• The Flag Institute guidelines state that a flag may represent only a traditional county or region, not an administrative area. Therefore which authorities involve themselves (if any) is irrelevant; it is not for their area.
• The competition was presumably open to people from Poole, whether that Council was involved or not.

Anyone might privately disagree with the flag, but that is not encyclopaedic content. What is certain is that no procedural objection can be raised: the edit is thus misleading to readers.

Howard Alexander (talk) 17:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest the residents of any editor is irreverent to the dispute. Also, we can also put aside the general assertion that “No British flag can be official” since there are different arguments for Scottish and English flags, and the powers of the College of Arms and authority of tradition also need consideration.

However, regarding the Dorset flag we can state clearly that it is NOT official. And in this we agree. But the concept that a flag can be a little bit official, like a little bit pregnant, is absurd – it either is or is not. This lack of official status needs explaining in the article.

“It can only be accepted.” I have no idea what this statement means. Please explain.

You use a pseudonym of “St. Wite’ cross”. Does the FI claim to have some Ecclesiastical authority? As far as I am aware no church body has approved such an icon for this saint.

The so-called “procedure” is nonsensical. You have already admitted the flag has no official status. And, in fact, there is a procedure. The FI need to petition the government or approach the monarch herself to request the granting such honours to counties. To my knowledge the FI have not done anything akin to this.

It was Dorset County Council that ran the competition. They acknowledged that “discussions would have to involve Bournemouth and Poole”.

You misquote the FI’s inclusion criteria. It states “normally apply to a historical county rather than a modern administrative area”. First the word “only” is NOT used. Second, there is no suggestion from the FI that they seek to exclude unitary authorities; they are still part of the county. Your statement “it is not for their area” is false. Third, you appear to be unaware of the recent legislation: The Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007. This is why the FI need council approval. Pmsmythe (talk) 16:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I am aware of the 2007 Regulations. They do not give any local authority any power to declare a flag "official", they simply refer to an undefined concept of "flag of an English county". (What they have against other British counties is beyond me, but it shows the fluffiness behind the Regulations.) At the time of the Regulations there were few accepted county flags; Cornwall accepted by long usage, Devon promoted by a local group of enthusiasts, Derbyshire invented by the BBC. If this is what the Regulatiuons meant, as it seem, I hardly see that invented objections to the Dorset flag (whether taken as referring to the local government county, to the lieutenancy county, to the historic county or to the name of Dorset alone) stand up.

What, in any case does "official" mean? It is one of those words people cling to without its having a meaning. Will you amend the article of the United Reformed Church to say that "it is not officially a 'church'" on the basis that only the Church of England and Church of Scotland are recognised by law? I'd be interested to see the reactions to such an edit! "Official" can have shades of meaning, as can "accepted". The Cornish flag is universally accepted without any "county referendum" nor the involvement of any local councils.

Since a "county referendum" (whatever that might be) cannot make a flag any more official, it is very misleading to mention it. It is no more than your personal invention.

Howard Alexander (talk) 21:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that the council simply acknowledged the public vote - they facilitated a vote for the whole county - despite Bournemouth and Poole not playing along, the people in those regions are still part of Dorset county. People from all parts of Dorset voted and St Wite's Cross won. I'd call that a popular endorsement by the people of Dorset. All this nonsense about 'official' and the lack of interest of two Borough councils is being pedantic. At no stage does this article claim that the flag is 'official', because the author is obviously aware that registry at the FI does not denote officialdom. If you're going to put statements like that in the opening paragraph, I suspect you're going to be very busy adding it to all other flag pages. 80.195.146.94 (talk) 08:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, as a compromise, how about something along the lines of:

“The Flag of Dorset is the flag of the English county of Dorset. The 'Dorset Cross' was chosen as the flag of Dorset on the 16 September 2008 following a public vote organised by Dorset County Council. The county’s two unitary authorities of Bournemouth and Poole declined the invitation to participate.”

I found a reference to this here http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/search/2336183.County_flag_idea_snub

What do you think? Pmsmythe (talk) 11:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

That sounds fine. Although maybe it's worth saying that although the two Authorities declined to participate, the vote was open to all residents of Dorset. It would be interesting to know if the two authorities recognise the flag as 'THE' flag of Dorset or not - but saying that, as they have no authority (like DCC) to authorise, recognise, endorse or the like, does it matter?!?!? 80.195.146.94 (talk) 13:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It sounds fine to me too. Howard Alexander (talk) 17:45, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, changes made. Pmsmythe (talk) 20:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW - take a look at Flags of England - someone has gone through and tagged anything registered at the Flag Institute as - you've guessed it - official....White43 (talk) 22:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

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