Talk:Flag of Albania

The Archangel Theory as brought by Burim Istogu

Before this article (The Origin of the Albanian Flag) is deleted, I brought this article in the talk page to consider its use in this article:

Colors of the Albanian Flag, the Archangel Theory

This theory suggests that the Albanian flag is related to an ancient religion which the Illyrians were associated with. To better understand this theory, you should read a little bit about the ancient Illirian religions, especially the cults associated with the two most sacred birds, the Eagle and the Archangel.

The colors of the Albanian flag are red and black, and a two headed eagle located in the center of the flag. We all know what the two headed eagle stands for but no one knows for sure why it is red and black. The Eagle = Shqiponja hence the name of modern Albania, Shqiperija "Land of Eagles", it is believed to be worshiped by the Illyrians as the god of war. It is also believed that Alexander the Great was the first one to use the double-headed eagle, but there is nothing that proves that Alexander himself carried the double-headed eagle on his armor. What is suggested is that a group of warriors from the northern tribes who had joined Alexander’s army, the Illyrians were the one that carried the Double-Headed Eagle, which could explain how the symbol ended up in Sirkap, today Pakistan, and other places that Alexander had originally concurred. Also see | Double Headed Eagle Shrine

Ancient Illyrians believed in some interesting ancient cults. A religion made out of multiple gods. Two of their most sacred ones were: Angjelusha Ilire = Engjuli = God of Peace and the Eagle = Shqiponja = God of War.

Angjellusha Ilire , Angelus Ilirica, Archangel also known as the Holy Bird still worshiped today by Daneti1is a sacred bird believed to have been worshiped by Illyrians years before the Christ. This bird is found only in the Illyrian occupied territories, modern Albania and Kosovo. The scientific name of the bird comes from the Greek language around 100 AD, they called it Columba Ilyrica = | Pellumbi Ilir. This bird has some distinct characteristics which are the reasons why it was worshiped by the ancient Illyrians. The bird flies at high altitudes which cannot be seen with the naked eye and it stays up in the sky for hours. The ancient Illyrians believed that the bird was up there communicating with the gods, in particular the god of SUN, Ellil = Dielli 2in ancient Illyrian, which they also worshiped.

How is this related to the flag? This bird is unique because it has been preserved genetically by the ancient Illyrians and worshiped as one their god for thousands of years and it is Red and Black. Those who created the Albanian flag, whether it is Skanderbeg or others before him clearly understood this ancient religion.

Documented phrases: “Our Religion is SHQIPTARIA”, in Albanian “ Feja jon eshte SHQIPARIA” Pashko Vasa , a documented phrase that suggest that we clearly had a religion long before the Christ. This phrase is also documented in other ancient text. The Flag according to my findings represents the two most sacred gods that Illyrians believed on, Red and Black = Engjellusha Ilire = Archangel= God of Peace, and The Eagle = God of War.

Written by Burim Istogu

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_the_Albanian_Flag" Hidden categories: Articles for deletion

-— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bulixus (talk • contribs) 07:35, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect version of the Albanian Flag

The eagle presented in the picture is the incorrect one. The right one is the one found in the coat of arms without Skanderbeg helm obviously. See also the talk in the file. Please someone who can correct it. Purusbonum (talk) 11:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

i found and upload on commons the law 8926 here [1] you can see in albanian the real flag and all other things like hymn music score etc. the right flag here [2] and CoA here [3] Ilbiochimico (talk) 21:51, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Egyptian Albanian Flag

I've been reading some scholarly articles and learned about a flag with a green background, a crescent moon, and 3 stars. It is defined as the "Kingdom of Egypt" flag between 1922–1953. However, it was also identified as an "Egyptian Albanian Flag." Does anyone have knowledge of this particular flag? (Thanks in Advance!)

Twillisjr (talk) 16:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

It was called Egyptian Albanian because the royal house of Egypt was of Albanian origin.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:02, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

"Flag of the Democratic Government of Albania"

I've never seen the hammer-and-sickle flag used in photographs during the 1944-1946 period. As far as I can tell this flag was used by the Albanian partisans only on specific, Communist Party-related occasions. The flag actually in use was the basic Albanian flag used today; the star was added when it was proclaimed a People's Republic in 1946. --Ismail (talk) 04:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Flags

1. The otherwise widely reported design of the flag of "Independent Albania" can be clearly confirmed in photos of that time, such as https://www.tiranatimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/13825279344_6b8e3aab7b_b.jpg from the Albanian Congress of Trieste.
2. The otherwise widely reported design of the flag of the Principality can clearly be confirmed in actual specimens of the flag such as https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1033571990308506&set=pb.100009671439264.-2207520000 . The "de-facto" flag stems from photo evidence in the post-Wied occupied Principality which shows "generic" double-headed eagle flags in use.
3. The file of the flag of the Republic is the same as the replacement one, just higher quality (does not include wear & tear + dirt in the vectorization). The "alternative flag" of the republic is seen in European vexillological publications of the time and could warrant a mention.
4. The Zogist flag (modern flag + helmet of Skanderbeg) is ultra-easily confirmed by every flag-guide in existence at the time + easy photographic confirmation.
5. Italian imposed fascists flags equally easily confirmed. In 1942 the old Zogist flag is reported to have begun to be used again due to the unpopularity of the fascist one. This is easily confirmed by both photos and video from the time.
6. The kingdom during German occupation readopted the old constitutions and its symbols. The use of these are easily confirmed by both photos and videos of state functions.
7. Hammer and Sickle flag is a little more sketchy and could need more defintie sourcing, but is reported in use by the partisan government.
(8.Regarding the Republic of Mirdita, the use of "generic" double-eagle flags are used everywhere in Albania at the time and indeed reported to be used the men of this group (who also used the generic symbol of stamps etc)
--Havsjö (talk) 16:03, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

1. How can you see the images of the flags on both links you provided and conclude definitively how the flag looks? It's impossible to tell the shape of the eagle from both images.
2. You are posting a Facebook image of a random user showing a flag that is supposedly 100+ years old in mint condition? Yeah, sounds very legit.
3. Your explanation is vague and confusing. Which flag are you referring to?
4. The zogist flag is easily confirmed. I agree 100%. All you have to do is go to the official Royal Court Website to see it https://albanianroyalcourt.al/symbols
5. Fascist flag design has many variations. I designed the emblem of this period so I know. The official one used in ceremonies (see: Luce Institute archives) varies greatly from the lesser arms design found in the currency used at the time.
6. Can you show me sources about the flag used during German occupation?
7. Again, sources?
8. There is no evidence of a flag being used by the Republic of Mirdita. None. If you disagree, show me that evidence? Kj1595 (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: I admire your effort to contribute information on the history of flags in Albania. However, the fictional images you have uploaded do more damage than good. You need to do more serious research when you upload content and label them official titles. You don't seem to be a native Albanian speaker which makes it harder for you to find reliably sourced content. That's totally understandable. But I suggest you do more indepth study of "historical" images you upload here. Kj1595 (talk) 19:59, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595: 1. Perhaps not every millimeter of every feather is 100% identical to the vectorization, but its clearly the same "fat" eagle design which is known to be the design of the original flag. So that file/flag should not be removed. That the notion of that flag being just based of some post-card is totally stupid. I mean the reason for the fat eagle being the "standard" design in the 1910-1920's of "generic" flags is because of its origin there. Like [4] or here [5]
2. The image is from a museum [6] (look in the display) and its a well-known design. Here is also from Albanian PM: [7] File/flag should not be removed. Here is also some other flags of that era [8] and the eagle-design further confirming [9]. The "de-facto" flag in the chaos period of WW1 with basically no "state" (but still formally the Principality), "generic" double-eagle flags are seen used in various photos or relic-flags by Albanians. Again from Albanian PM Edi Rama [10] from 1917.
3. Republican flags ("State" and "national") [11] and [12]. the latter indeed on a square shape. You replaced this flag with this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Albanian_Republic_(1925%E2%80%931928).svg which is the same flag but lower quality. The strange "alternative flag" for the Republic is this [13]. Info about it here [14] (I have also seen this flag in charts from that time, probably some kind of error though).
4. Why did you remove the Zogist flag (also from the "Kingdom of Albania" article, if you known its design is real? [15] [16] also Bonus: [17] Army flag of Royal Army which you removed from here for no reason. Even https://albanianroyalcourt.al/symbols/ here, which you sent tells you this is the royal falg and army flag... NOTE THAT ROYAL FLAG IS NOT THE SAME AS NATIONAL FLAG. ALL MONARCHIES HAVE A ROYAL FLAG FOR THE MONARCH TOO ASIDE FROM THE COUNTRIES FLAG
5. fascist flag has 1 design [18] [19] although some are made in "lower quality" or with smaller emblem or some such, but the design ("on paper") is the same. Here is Fascist era "Zogist" flag [20][21] (and there are other photos and videos)
6. Here is a random street flag from German period as a bonus: [22] Otherwise, here are "crowned" version [23] and another [24] (the latter is a still from a video of that ceremony by the government (here is PM Rexhep from that occasion [25]). + it is known these symbols returned with the return to that pre-Italian constitution. Here is some info on eye-witness of 1:2 proportions, but I would personally prefer if the "normal" version was standardized on on this site... [26]
7.[27]
8.Here I admit I have no source definite source lol. But this "generic" flags would be used here (as they were by seen used by everyone in Albania in this period, hehe... But okay this one can be removed....
So to purge these flag which are proved to be used is very bad and is just removing info. Put the info regarding these flags with the files and trim the really unsourced ones (like Miridita, I guess...) and dont just purge everything and say retarded stuff like how OBVIOUSLY used flags were "Not used" or "did not exist" (Independent Albania, Principality, German-era, ZOGIST era(!)) Or that some minor disturbance in a vectorization invalidates these like flags which often are not 100% standardized IRL anyway. (Same [28] HERE! Why included IRL material imperfections rather than the intended "on paper" design? Do you model in a hole in the flag if the specimen you base the vector on is torn?) --Havsjö (talk) 21:04, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: 1. No, it is not known to be the design of the original flag. This is where you stumble and provide no credible sources to make such a claim. The following article link from Albania's largest news network, Top Channel, dated November 1, 2012 explains clearly that the design of the original flag remains a mystery. It brings up 10 hypothesis but in conclusion it says there is no evidence to say for sure which variant was the original flag used on the day of November 28, 1912 https://top-channel.tv/2012/11/01/misteri-i-flamurit-te-pare-shqiptar
2. Edi Rama's post is 100% incorrect. That flag is a recreation of what Wied's flag may have looked like. The only surviving flag of that era belongs in the National Museum of History's ethnographic fund and as explained, it is in a very poor state and impossible to reconstruct. The flag Rama posted doesn't show the shielded peacock which makes it automatically fictional. Here is the image of the only surviving flag of that era displaying the shielded peacock posted by another reputable news portal https://shqiptarja.com/lajm/nje-histori-plot-mistere-br-rreth-flamurit-te-princ-vidit-br
3. The flag of the Albanian Republic you posted is 100% fictional. Its only source is an amateur site created by Jaume Ollé. The actual flag is entirely different and is sourced from Teki Selenica's book "Shqipria më 1927 (e illustruar)". That book is the official pamflet created to promote the history and culture of Albania at the time. Selenica was a high ranking official known for his extensive work on the first official census conducted in the country. It has also been confirmed in notable scholar Jaho Brahaj's book "Flamuri i Kombit Shqiptar". Here is the evidence https://scontent.ftij1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/161587847_1876819149142039_4046926532410974476_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=1wcSLS6h2MwAX-qf7wv&tn=-oaH8xbfyKxq2h2J&_nc_ht=scontent.ftij1-1.fna&tp=14&oh=99d06e7f07a68208955ff43e8ce8f034&oe=6077F601
4. How can the zogist flag you posted be the real one when I showed you the official source which is the Albanian Royal Court Website?
5. Fascist flag as I said has many variations. The design of the helmet in the current flag is fictional and shows no resemblance to any historically recorded flag of that time.
6. The images of the flag you posted look completely different from the flag found in the article. You keep proving my point.
7. crwflags.com is not a credible source.
8. So you have no source but decide to add some flag you found on some website anyway? This is what I mean when I say your contribution is creating more damage than good.
9. Essad Pasha's flag is reconstructed based on historical imagery. You rather have a generic image a 5 year old can design on paint just because it might look that way in print? Kj1595 (talk) 21:51, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595:
1. Contemporary images of the flag in use by government representatives etc is easily a credibly source. The article you sent talks about unknown origin of the individual, specific, absolutely nr.1 first flag from the independence declaration on 28 November 1912 and the person who made it etc, it does NOT call into question the general design of "mass-produced" national flag of the country, which can be easily confirmed by many photos to back up the known sources that describe or depict it to be the "fat" eagle. How can such clear photo evidence of its use, matching written sources, be dismissed by that flag not being the very, very, very nr.1 first flag??
2. For some one interested in heraldry and flags, it astonishes me how you dont seem to be aware of distinguishing "royal flag", "national flag", "state flag" etc. The "destroyed" flag with the peacock-shield is indeed, as your source describes, the "royal flag" or "Wied's (personal) flag", this is also known [29]. BUT the widely reported and sourced flag of the COUNTRY (not Wied's flag a.k.a. royal banner) is the the version the larger version with a star and no shield as described by man sources. The museum pieces (which are not fake, (and although Mr. Rama's is reconstructed, is from museum/experts, not his home made project...) and do not contradict that example of Wied's (personal) flag, clearly matching the sources description and depiction of this flag. This [30] is also treated by experts at a museum, with Mr. Zefi being the Head of the Cultural Heritage Sector in Lezhe, not some random peoples photos... Understand that these images/specimens are not the sources in themselves, but merely backing up the written sources which already describe and depict these flags. Bonus: the civil ensign (if you know what that is... dont confuse this with another type of flag now...) of the Principality from time during the Austrian occupation in WW1 [31][32].
3.The flag posted by Edi Rama (the prime minister of Albania, not some random person!) is not a fake. Its design matches also the known stipulations from the flag related laws of the time mentioned here [33] (such as the state flag having a crown in the middle of the eagle, as opposed to its "empty" civil variant). Once more I am astonished, however, by what to show in this image [34]. The flag you replaced the national flag with is clearly described in that image as the flag of the ARMY! How do you not distinguish between these flags?? Also, the Army/War flag and the Presidents banner are also described here [35] (although the president version is missing the rays, and the might have incorrect proportions). BUT anyway, these variants were not "unknown" and do not contradict the source-accurate flag of the STATE presented by Mr. Rama (and again, although reconstructed, is from museum/experts, not his home made...). Here is btw the SQUARE, black eagle army/naval flag (as per your own source!!) [36] (square shaped indeed, as is common with military flags like this and which seems to be consistent with army + presidential/royal flags throughout the history in Albania) and here is the state flag [37], there is no contradiction and no indication that this specimen is false!!
4. Yet again I am unfortunately forced to expressed my continuing astonishment at the ignorance of such basic vexillology in this context... The royal website clearly says its the ROYAL flag and ARMY flag.... This is INDEED well known and confirmed by sources (as are all the above claims I make, naturally)[38] Its no rarity for sure... But how does this is any way invalidate the equally commonly and definitively sourced civil/state flag of the country (without or with crown above the eagle, respectively, in non-square shape and without the laurels)!? Do you not know the difference or make any distinguishing between this different types of flags?? This betrays a fundamental lack of understanding!
6. Also with the Fascist flag there is a state (crowned with the Savoy crown) and a civil variant without one. All variations from this design [39], such as here the details of the crown here [40] is just the result of material imperfections, not changes to the actual design. The crown (of the state flag) can be seen even on this image [41]
7. It is known that the pre-Italian constitution was readopted by the government during the German occupation, and this includes the laws of state/national symbols etc (although the old flag, as mentioned and shown, was already used in the later Italian period). The actual uses of these symbols are proved with the period photos showing their use at that time. What else is there to say? The only "controversy" here the 1:2 variant of the same design, which could be removed if the eye-witness accounts of people seeing are not credible enough. The "shorter" / normal version is proven beyond any doubt, anyway.... (Btw, the armpatch of the Skanderbeg SS-division has only been seen on some of that units German officers (and I think of some Albanians in the Handschar SS-division, who I also recall were later were moved to the Skanderbeg division after its formation. It was anyway not a widely worn one, and not in any case replacing the national/state flags!?)
8. I can conceded this one due to lack of specimen/photos backing up this description
(9.) Essad Pasha's flag. Just crazy to me to include such material imperfections in the digital vectorization of the flags design (and indeed, what, holes in the cloth?? Dirt??) when the design is supposed to be "red with a white star", and not "red with a white star, although with a slightly misaligned left arm of the star or loose thread on the bottom right"
The well-confirmed flags (and, would be nice, the variants for naval/civil ensigns, royal/army banners etc! should be depicted here and their origin/design etc described. Now you have just removed a ton of stuff (although messy and imperfect) and replaced it with nothing or very fundamental mistakes which do not distinguish between basic things... Such as the very nr.1 first specific flag used on 28 November 1912 vs first flag design of the general used flag (the latter which is easily proved), or no separation/distinguishing between civil flag/state flag/royal flag/army flag etc... Not good! --Havsjö (talk) 06:27, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: Before I respond to your points, you don't think I want these articles to have flags and emblems? Of course I do. As you may or may not know, I have authored hundreds of logo images in vector format here in Commons. I would be more than happy to design flags and emblems of the missing articles if only we had credible historical evidence of their existence. Not remakes of hypothetical variants but accurate to the pixel historical images.
1. Where is the evidence that the flag you posted, the one found in Spiridon Ilo's postcard of 1920, which is a reprint of Marigo Posio's (Ilo's cousin) hand-embroidered flag, where is the evidence that was the flag used in Independence Day? If you cannot provide me the evidence from credible sources, I will no longer respond to this point.
2. Again, where are these credible sources that say that Wied's flag looks like the one from Edi Rama's facebook post? Do you know that there is no record of any historical illustration of the flag used during Wied's era? There are records of his coat of arms, several of them actually. But no record of the flag illustration. So how can you tell me that this is the flag without any physical proof? You are just hypothesising.
3. Do you know how foolish your argument here is? That eagle is nothing more than a recreation of the eagle from the Ministry of Justice qarkore found here http://cod.al/?page_id=598#tab-d393ce31-349c-4
4. I have no idea what you just wrote. What does the Royal Army flag have anything to do with what we are discussing? And that is the flag of the monarchy you posted is entirely different from the one found in the royal court website? You are confusing me here. Why are you posting a fictional flag of the monarchy that contradicts official sources?
I am not responding to points 6 and 7 because I have no idea what you just wrote. Your command of the English language is making it very difficult for me to continue carrying on this discussion.
9. I uploaded a historically accurate flag. The previous flag was fictional. No physical evidence of that flag exists. End of conversation. Kj1595 (talk) 08:13, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595:Basically all of Wikipedia would need to be purged of every flag if every "pixel" needs to be reconstructed 10000%, since flags, and especially old flags, have minor variations based on production quality etc in the time before machine-mass-production, but this does not change that the specific design they all try to replicate is "the flag"
1. Re-read, I dont know what flag was the very first one used on 28 Nov 1912 held in the hands of Ismail Qemali and I have not claimed to know that specific flag-specimen (which is what the article you sent is discussing). But it doesnt matter if that particular, singular specimen is not known since what this argument is about is the national flag in general which was used by Albania between 1912-1914, which has ample proof. That your article talking about that particular specimen does not contradict the documented use of the flag otherwise.
2. The flag specifications which details the national flag, the royal flag (aka Wied's own flag), the flag of the crown prince, and the civil ensign as designed by Emil Dopler Jr., backed up by expert museum pieces and presented by Cultural Heritage experts and even the Prime minister of the country.
3. Indeed, those qarkore from the republican era use the style the republican style eagle since that was the style of eagle used at the time?? I am not in a position to question how those museum experts recreated the flag, but using the documented style of eagle in use at the time combined with the flag specifications from the laws defining it at the time makes sense... The flag you replaced the aformetioned state flag with, i.e. [42], is however (as also detailed in the flag specifications of the time), the flag of the army [43] (as explained here). The same republican style eagle you talk about is also shown on those same pages... The flag you upload (army flag), does not contradict the specifications/expert-recreations of the state/civil flag
4.Here is the flag of Russia [44], here is the (former) royal flag [45]
Here is the flag of UK [46], here is the royal flag [47]
Here is the flag of Netherlands [48], here is the royal flag [49]
Here is the flag of Albania [50], and here is the royal flag [51]
Same situation with the national flag vs the royal flag (Wied's flag) in the Principality. The national flag of the Zogist kingdom is ofc well known and easily confirmed, is the the, per your own source (the royal website), royal flag (also used as army flag), also documented here [52]. You make no distinguishing between these types of flag. The National flag is seen defined in the laws of the time (declared on 22 November 1928 and confirmed 8 August 1929. The royal/army flag was adopted on 8 Aug 1929) and seen in photos, so its not some unsourced/unconfirmed thing.
6. Italian period use civil flag (without savoyard crown) and state flag (with savoyard crown). All "variations" of this flag is just unintended results of poor materials or whatever. No "variants" on emblem design is official or intended. Later in the Italian period the pre-Italian Zog-flag is again used (the normal national flag of 1928-1939 period)
7. In the German period the pre-Italian constitution was readopted, including the flag laws which it contained. Thus the pre-italian (Zogist) symbols returned into law, and the actual IRL use of these symbols is proven by photo and video.
9. There is no "this or that" flag, its the same flag in both cases--Havsjö (talk) 09:21, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: To be fairly honest with you, most flags in Wikipedia are indeed fictional and/or of very poor quality. This is specifically true with the coat of arms. Albania is an exception. Its historical coat of arms are exceptionally accurate from a historical perspective. The flags however are a different story. And that is what I'm trying to correct here.
1. There is ZERO historical proof that the flag of Spiridon Ilo was used by the provisional government from 1912–1914.
2. There is ZERO historical proof that Prince Wied's flag looked like the one posted in Edi Rama's facebook post or the post found in Paulin Zefi's facebook account.
3. No. The Ministry of Justice qarkore used a different eagle from the Ministry of Education qarkore as the link shows. As you can see, the person who created that flag is completely unaware of this fact and assumed the eagle he may have seen was part of the official flag.
4. The national flag used during the Monarchy is not well-known because it is not found in any articles. The fictional flag may be well-known but the historical flag is not well-known. I am in the proccess of finishing it this weekend. Why do you keep mentioning the royal army flag? I don't understand?
9. Again, what are you arguing about? The updated flag of Essad Pasha accurately matches the flag found in the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs archive. There is an actual image of that flag. So, what are you arguing? Kj1595 (talk) 09:50, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

1. Yes it is. Here it is [53].
2. Yes, the specifications of the flags of the principality, which the museum pieces presented by Mr. Rama and Mr. Zefi depict. Those specifications include also other falgs like the royal flag (with a peacock-shield etc)
3. The museum-experts who made the reconstruction use the style of eagle which can be seen in the documents from the republic and here [54].
4. The royal, national and state flags are specifically defined in the aforementioned flag related laws from 1929. The flag from the royal website shows and describes the royal flag (vis-a-vis the national/state flag, the difference of which I showed examples of in the previous response). That royal flag (square shape with laurels) was also used by the army (as per the flag-related laws)[55]. This is different from the civil/state flag shown here in use in 1939 [56] Here it is again after it was re-adopted in 1942 [57][58]. --Havsjö (talk) 10:06, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

1. That's an image of the delegates of the Congress of Trieste. Not the provisional government. How can you even see the eagle in that flag?
2. Those are not historically accurate images. Why? Because no historical illustration of Prince Wied's flag exists. Only the damaged flag at the National Museum of History. So, those are hypothetical recreations of how the flag may have looked. And of course they are fictional because they lack the shielded peacock.
3. The fictional Republic flag is not made by museum experts. It is only found in Jaume Olle's website and is based on a version of the eagle that is similarly found in the Ministry of Justice qarkore.
4. You continue to bring up the royal army flag? Why? I did remove the fictional royal army emblem some time ago. What is it about the army flag you need to know from me? Kj1595 (talk) 10:41, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

1. Enough said above and below
2. I add yet again that you need to make a distinction between the national flag and the royal banner, the latter being Prince Wied's own flag and which is not the same as the national flag[59]. Wied's royal flag has a peacock shield (and a crown above the eagle), the Principality national flag did not have a shield (and a star above the eagle). This is attested by sources and museum-expert recreations based on those sources.
3. The republican flag is again based on laws which provides instructions on how flags should look like. Jaume Olle's rendition on FOTW[60] is based on these laws. The expert-museum recreation, presented by the Prime Minister, is not based on Olle's file from FOTW but on the same definitions of the flag.[61] It can be seen to have some very slight differences in details and should probably be considered more accurate, but its more proof its not regurgitating Jaume Olle's. The Ministry documents show the same republican-style eagle as on the flags as this was the style of eagle used that the time, nothing strange about it. The source you provided[62] shows that same as what Jaume Olle said on FOTW, the presidental flag with the crown above it and golden rays, the red-black-red civil ensign, the republican-style eagle with the crown in the middle of the state flag, and indeed the "Flag of the Army". Despite this being labeled as the "flag of the army" and described as the design for the flag of the army in the flag-laws, you have replaced the normal national/state flags of the republic with this flag! There is anyway nothing fictional or made up about the republican flag design...
4.I cannot believe I have to explain this again... AS PER THE FLAG-RELATED LAWS PASSED IN THE KINGDOM: This[63] is the state version of the national flag, This[64] is the civil version of the national flag (lack of file, but its supposed to be the state flag without the crown), and This[65] is the royal flag IN ADDITION to being the flag of the army. This is written in the flag-laws, confirmed by photos, and NOT contradicted by the royal website, which is in full agreement with this. You call the state/civil flags fictional, treat the royal banner (which is also the army banner) as the regular national flag, and you also removed the royal banner aka army banner from the Royal Albanian Army article together with that emblem[66] --Havsjö (talk) 15:22, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

RFC: Historical flags

Should the historical flag designs be included in the article with descriptions or continue as the page is now (i.e. with all flag-files removed)? (Edited for clarity)
(Refer the discussion above or the Comment down below (if you dont wanna read through all that stuff above) for further context) --Havsjö (talk) 09:27, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The question is somewhat unclear (what is 'now'? is the question about including historical flags in general or a specific subset of them, or the formatting of their presentation?). I guess you mean whether we support this state, where the historical variant flags are represented as a gallery, or this state, with short text descriptions and a purge of many designs. For me the answer is neither and both at the same time. I definitely support the inclusion of historical designs, including pre-independence flags, as long as these can be referenced, whether by decrees authorizing them, secondary works analyzing them, or photos or surviving examples. Anything that can not be verified, should be removed. Since the flags should be explained and placed in context, a purely 'gallery of flags' approach is insufficient; but the list-like approach of the 'current' state looks odd for what is supposed to be an article, not a list. An approach like Flag of Germany is to be recommended IMO. Constantine ✍ 10:02, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Why is the list odd? It is organized and seperates through certain periods the flags used by the Albanian State. If anything, this should be the model most flag pages should follow. I am in the process of designing roughly 35 historical flags which will later be added in this page as a gallery. They will be identified by year and who it belonged to. All flags were used during historical events and aren't amateur flags. Kj1595 (talk) 10:09, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: Indeed, [67] this is the "now" and [68] this is "old" version, and the "old" version is not very good I agree. More info is needed on each flag and variants (such as naval/civil ensigns, civil/state variants, royal banners etc) are needed. But the question is if the listed "main" flags of the "old" version can be accepted at all? Despite flag related laws and designs being known, they are not accepted currently by certain users... --Havsjö (talk) 10:10, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

To follow up on the German model proposal, that article is so extensive where each historical flag can be its own article. This extensive level of information simply is not available in books and sources related to the history of Albanian flags. I would gladly expand it but the information just isn't there. Kj1595 (talk) 10:19, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with @Constantine, historical flags that can be sourced should be included with their description and context. Unsourced reconstructions should be removed. @Kj1595: why did you remove the flag of Independent Albania? The original version that was raised in Vlorë is unknown, but the flag of Independent Albania (1912–1914) is well known and sourced, furthermore it is clearly depicted in contemporary photos. – Βατο (talk) 11:42, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Βατο: Can you provide us with a source of the flag used from 1912–1914 by the provisional government? Kj1595 (talk) 11:47, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595: The problem is that the flags are presented unconnected from one another, lacking a wider narrative of the evolution of the flag over time, or the reasons why new designs were adopted, such as regime changes. In other words, this is a list, not an article. Flags typically change along with the political institutions of a state, and these changes should be explained side by side. The 'Background' section sort of explains the history in broad strokes, but it would be much better if that history were illustrated with the flags; not least because a continuous and comprehensible story could be told to an uninitiated reader (I imagine the average reader won't know that the 'Italian occupation of Albania' is the same as the 'Kingdom of Albania (1939–1943)' in the list, for example). Constantine ✍ 12:03, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That is something that can be improved. It will take time and more research but it can be improved. Kj1595 (talk) 12:14, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595, there are many sources, one of them is Brahaj, Jaho (2007). Flamuri i Kombit Shqiptar: origjina, lashtësia. Enti Botues "Gjergj Fishta". p. 118. ISBN 9789994338849. The sources you are referring to state that the original flag raised in Vlorë is unknown, they do not comment on the flag used in the period 1912–1914. A version of the flag is documented in a photo you uploaded to Commons: Commons:File:Delegatët e Kongresit të Triestes.jpg. – Βατο (talk) 13:03, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Βατο: That part of Brahaj's book has always puzzled me because the description is vague to say the least. I did some digging and read a few of his old interviews and he mentioned the flag being published in the official newspaper of the government. And of course there was only one newspaper then, Perlindja e Shqipëniës. There it is, posted on the cover page of the 16th issue, dated Saturday, March 7, 1914. I uploaded the image here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Perlindja_e_Shqipëniës_(March_7,_1914).jpg – I guess we can accept the flag illustration here as official. Still, the forms of the eagle differ noticably from the remake. Not just the color scheme but from the neck up as well. The eagle in this flag illustration looks more like a hybrid of Alandro Kastriota's postcard flag variants https://m.facebook.com/heraldikashqiptare/photos/pcb.1706800592771807/1706799839438549/?type=3&source=48 / http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mKjOZpB4li0/UiZPWdlWmVI/AAAAAAAADu8/lIZe-CPHFrk/s1600/BEO+1879.140894+27+Ra+1320+Paris+Postcard+Albanian+Prince+Arnavut+6.JPG Kj1595 (talk) 15:05, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That is the previous flag (of 1912-1914) still being used before the installation of the new Principality flags, 7 May 1914 is in fact the very first day of the Principality. It is not likely that the entire switch of all heraldry in the country could be switched instantly. However, it does serve as further proof of the 1912-1914 flags usage! The Principality flags (national, royal banner, civil ensign etc) were soon after instated as seen in photos and attested by modern museum-experts etc --Havsjö (talk) 15:35, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595: the image [69] depicts the flag used in the period 1912-1914, and @Havsjö: is right in saying it's another proof for the version Commons:File:Flag of Albanian Provisional Government (1912-1914).svg. Scholars do not question this flag, it should be restored into the article. Some scholars state that the original flag raised by Ismail Qemali in 1912 is unkown, although the most accepted one is this flag (see Brahaj, Jaho (2007). Flamuri i Kombit Shqiptar: origjina, lashtësia. Enti Botues "Gjergj Fishta". pp. 118, 131. ISBN 9789994338849. and Frashëri, Kristo (2008). Shpallja e pavarësisë së Shqipërisë: 28 Nëntor 1912. Akademia e Shkencave e Shqipërisë. p. 108. ISBN 978-99956-10-14-2.). Alandro Kastriota's version is excluded in scholarship. – Βατο (talk) 13:42, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Havsjö, unfortunately I may give at the moment just a superifical feedback, I am not sure I fully grasped the issue, however, if it is about how the layout should be about flags, this ([70]) layout I like better then the current one. If you think I missed a point, please specify and tell from which solutions/subparts of the issue I may choose/vote (the article is not on my watchlist, so you have to always ping me here). Thank You(KIENGIR (talk) 14:53, 19 March 2021 (UTC))

  @KIENGIR: I agree the current layout is better and cleaner. But the core of the issue is that every single file of the flags from 1912 to 1946 shown here[71] is no longer allowed to be used and have also been removed from the respective entities article. Despite proven use (in my opinion) through written sources, definitions from flag-related laws from the time, flag-charts from the time, photos from the time, videos from the time, and current day museum specimens either original or recreations based on the above by resident experts. The opposing opinion claim that this is not proof enough of their usage and that they should remain purged from both this article and the respective state articles. Its a long read above, but it should explain things --Havsjö (talk) 15:35, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: I am willing to work with you here but we need the proof. With the last flag, I was able to find the evidence so that flag can now be posted on the main article. However it still needs some correcting. If we can find the evidence, the flags may be posted. Until then, we have to accept the flags as fictional. Kj1595 (talk) 15:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Havsjö, in case you agree with me, it cannot be the current layout, or you agree with someone else, or I missed again something. I don't understand why some flags would not be allowed to be used (?), anyway I am not a specialist on Albanian flags so I could not even really be wiser than you in the above super-expert representation. I hope you find the best, accurate solution here. I just formed my opinion as how the flag alignment/arrangement looks better, not what flags are shown.(KIENGIR (talk) 16:28, 19 March 2021 (UTC))

Comment @KIENGIR:@Kj1595: This is basically a collected summary of all I have to say. A catch-up summary of the disputed flags for those who dont want to read the whole thing above:

Independent Albania[72] Which uses a "fat" eagle. This design is widely reported and can easily be attested by for example this image[73] as well as other specimens[74]

Principality of Albania[75] (Although the flags were only in use at the very start before total collapse in 1914-15, the state formally existed until the 1920's) The flags and their eagle was designed by the heraldist Emil Dopler Jr.[76] Aside from the national flag, royal banners and civil ensigns were also designed. Here is a surviving royal banner[77] (compared with FOTW[78]), and here are photos of the civil ensign [79][80][81]. The style of eagle is also seen in passports and medals of the time[82][83][84]. Museum recreation presented by the Prime Minister of Albania[85] and possibly a real flag (considering the faded colours and frayed edges) or otherwise also a musuem-expert recreation is also presented by the Head of the Cultural Heritage Sector in Lezhe[86][87]. Both these match what the sources say. (Sidenote: In the chaos period during WW1 and after there was no real functioning state. In this time several self-declared entities and factions emerge which use various styles and variants of "generic" Albanian falgs[88][89])

Republic of Albania[90] At the beginnings of this in 1920, a black-eagle-on-red-flag was used[91][92] After the formation of the republic in 1925, new flag-laws were created on 12 July 1926.[93] These create the state/civil flag (with or without a crown in the middle), a museum-recreation is shown here by the Prime Minister[94]. The new style of bird can be attested by the museum-recreation, depictions of Jaume Olle based on the flag-laws on FOTW[95][96], depictions on documents from government ministries[97]. The one presented by the PM is the most accurate as it is backed up by this contemporary book (at the bottom right)[98]. Italian Vexillologist Roberto Breschi claim that the eagle became more often depicted fully black (on details like beak, claws) as time went on. Other republican flags created in those same laws are seen here[99][100], they are military flag , president banner (with golden rays) and civil ensign. Kj1595 has replaced the national flag with the symbol of the uncrowned civil/military flag: This file [101] based on this (top left) [102]. This[103] is some strange variant which appears in some flag-charts, but its probably an error.

Kingdom of Albania[104] The republic became a Kingdom in 1928. New flags were issued with this proclamation on 22 Nov 1928, but otherwise its said the new flags came when they were officially defined in flag-laws on 8 August 1929[105]. These flags were a state flag[106], a civil version of it (same but without a crown), and a royal banner which was also the army flag[107][108][109][110]. The new eagle + crown is ofc seen on many emblems and so on and the general flag is easy to find in flag-charts[111] and images[112]

Kingdom of Albania (Italian protectorate)[113] New flags after Albania become a protectorate of Italy in 1939.[114] Crowned state flag [115][116][117] and civil flag without it[118]. Due to the impopularity of this flag the pre-italian flag was again used after May 1942 (although fascists and government institutions still retained the old one until July 1943), here is an example of the old state flag once more used in Fascist Albania[119] (not that this also basically shows proof of this flag in use in the pre-Italian kingdom, since its supposed to be that same flag)

Kingdom of Albania (German occupation)[120] After Italian surrender Germany occupied Albania. The new government was still the Kingdom. They removed the Italian constitution and reverted to the pre-Italian one, this includes reverting back to the old pre-italian flags and symbols of the kingdom that are defined there.[121] The flag was as mentioned already used in the Italian period, but here they are in the German period: [122][123] (not that this also basically shows proof of this flag in use in the pre-Italian kingdom, since its supposed to be that same flag). On FOTW its claimed based on eye-witness report that these flags were also made in 1:2 ratio, but unless these eye-witness accounts are trusted this is unconfirmed[124][[125]]

Democratic Government of Albania the provisional government from 1944-1946 before the "proper" establishment of the People's Socialist Republic of Albania. Some sources from FOTW here, but thats it...[126][127][128] Most photos I have seen of partisan flags only have the bird, with no other symbols.
I anyway consider all these totally uniform sources all showing the exact same claims to be proof of all these flags use (except the last one maybe...) But these are all flags which Kj1595 say are fictional and have no proof, based on this he has removed them all from this article and their respective articles... --Havsjö (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: 1. The discussion on the flag used during Independent Albania has been settled. We now have as historical evidence the cover page of the 16th issue of Perlindja e Shqipëniës newspaper which is the OFFICIAL publication of the provisional government. The image in that illustration is the only legitimate one.
2. For the milionth time, no historical evidence is available on how Wied's flag looked like aside from the damaged flag in the National Museum of History. Posting images of the shielded peacock in color purple is ridiculous as it goes against the design principles that Doepler had intended which is that the peacock should be in its natural state. See the Emblem of the Republic of Albania article as it explains with a very credible source in German how Doepler intended for the peacock to look like. Have you ever seen a purple peacock?
3. The country's official name was Albanian Republic. The only credible source for how the flag of the Republic looked like can be none other than Teki Selenica's book "Shqipria më 1927, e illustruar". It is the OFFICIAL encyclopedic guide book of the Albanian State. Please do not waste your time arguing about this flag.
4. The country's official name was Albanian Kingdom. The only credible source of this flag is the OFICCIAL royal court website. Arguing against this is like arguing that water is not wet.
5. There are variations of the flag used during the nazi occupation. The puppet government did not use an official flag as there wasn't much time to properly organize and establish state symbols.
6. The Democratic government also did not have an official flag. You may see latter illustrations but no physical historical evidence of a flag used at this time exist. The national liberation army however used this simple seal with a communist star inside https://scontent.ftij1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/162457201_1877651442392143_411159581418397597_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=LU8mFhjrDIYAX-7Mcyt&_nc_ht=scontent.ftij1-1.fna&tp=14&oh=89b475a5e71e147b1d25958425f5b903&oe=607AB7DC Kj1595 (talk) 20:20, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Youre like a broken toy who just repeats the same words over and over about things which are not even being discussed. Such as still going on about the royal banner of the Principality aka "Wied's flag" instead of the national flag (purple is just poor rendition of natural peacock colours), or using the Republican army flag as the national flag despite the 1927 book of Teki Selenece[129] you constantly refer to as a source for this clearly listing it as the flag of the army (and in general presenting that book as if it didnt fully agree with every word I say). Again pointing to the royal flag of the Kingdom from the website, which is correctly labelled as the royal flag, but yet again being presented by you as if the website claimed it was the national flag, ignoring the flag-laws clearly defining both national flags and royal banners exactly in accordance with both my claims and the sources you present as if they were contradicting my claims. Ignoring clear photographic and video evidence of government use of the pre-Italian flags at state ceremonies during the German occupation period. Just bizarre --Havsjö (talk) 20:37, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: 1. Wied's flag is the national flag. He was the Prince and Albania was a Principality. But for argument's sake, let's just say that the national flag was different from Wied's flag. You still have ZERO evidence of such a flag. Instead, you keep posting images from Jaume Olle's website as if it was some legitimate source? There are no historical illustrations of the national flag from 1914. Argument ends here. No physical evidence, no argument.
2. Page 124 of Selenica's book says under the flag description: "Flamuri Kombtar dhe i Ushtris" = "National Flag and of the Army"
3. Again, let's just say for argument's sake that the Royal Flag is different from the National Flag. You still have ZERO physical evidence to show how the National Flag looked like during the Albanian Kingdom.
4. You showed me images of different variations of flags used during the Nazi period. And I agree. So what are you arguing about? Kj1595 (talk) 21:05, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

1. Re-read my text. You are just wrong and the national flag design is clear and not the same as the royal banner.
2. Yes, the civil flag of the national is of the bird only (and same as army flag per flag laws), state flag version is seen in the same book on the right bottom. But these show symbols of the flags, not the "canvas". And you have removed the earlier style of coloured details
3. Flag-laws and images of the flag are shown above.
4. All nazi-period flags are the same as the pre-Italian, bird + with crown above for state version. All photos of this shows this --Havsjö (talk) 21:18, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: 1. And the source is?
2. That's not the State Flag. That's the State Emblem. Stema Shtetnore = State Emblem in gheg albanian which was the official dialect used at the time.
3. Again, zero physical evidence. Kj1595 (talk) 21:31, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

See above, as used on the state flag like the other is on the national flag, see + photos. Now hush and wait for comments on the RFC --Havsjö (talk) 21:34, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: See what above? The book clearly describes the flag as the NATIONAL FLAG. Trying to argue that is the equivalent of trolling at this point. Kj1595 (talk) 21:41, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

• I was invited here by Havsjö. The gallery is superior to the boxed list. There is probably a better third way, but the current setup—forcing small text into a box that uses only half the screen with thumbnail images—sucks. Srnec (talk) 23:59, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: the box in the current version that includes small text describing the flags should be removed. The information should be presented as in other articles, according to MOS:LAYOUT. A gallery can also be included with properly referenced images. – Βατο (talk) 14:21, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: I think it's reasonable to include historical flags in an article such as this one, so I don't see an issue with that. Also, if I understand correctly one of the problems here is that some of the early flags lack a good reference source, in this case I think there is a two-pronged solution, for example I think a photograph would be a reasonable reference (at least initially, until a better source can be found. I know from personal experience that it's difficult to find English language sources on many topics related to European history), but I would refrain from using Facebook posts as a reference. Also, I would suggest creating a separate article tilted something like "Historical flags of Albania" or "List of Albanian flags", like with France for example, where you have Flag of France and List of French flags — in that second article you can include some of the other Albanian flags, which only have lower quality sources, or do not yet have a reference source (in which case you could use a "reference source needed" tag), if after some time no source can be found the flag or flags can be removed after a discussion. --E-960 (talk) 19:50, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

  Just wanted to point out that a facebook post would be below my standards usually as well, the fact that these are expert-recreations or original specimens posted by the account of the current Prime Minister of Albania on one hand, and from "behind the scenes" review of museum artifacts by the account on an official "Head of the Cultural Heritage Sector" on the other, it weights "heavier" than it otherwise would IMO --Havsjö (talk) 20:42, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Edi Rama once posted in his facebook account a render image of an airport in the Rebublic of Georgia by claiming it would be the new airport in Kukës only to be ridiculed by his followers. That is the source you consider legitimate? Paulin Zefi posts an image of a 100+ year old flag in mint condition that is found only in his facebook account. What is the likelihood of that being legitimate? I would rather trust an expert like Frederik Stamati who restores historical flags for a living and has written a book on historical flags or Jaho Brahaj who is an expert in Albanian Heraldry and has written a book on the history of the Albanian Flag. You did admit already in this talk page that the Republic of Mirdita flag was fictional. Here is a question I have: What is the hurry of posting dubiously sourced flags anyway? You don't want the articles to look empty, is that it? Kj1595 (talk) 04:00, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

The flag of the Republic of Mirdita seems to be fictional, so far I have not found reliable sources to support it. I agree to remove it. On the contrary, the flags of Independent Albania, Principality of Albania, and Kingdom of Albania (Italian protectorate) are documented in historical sources and reported in Brahaj's book, they can't be considered fictional. @Kj1595: you have not consensus to remove them from this article and from other related articles (as you did here: A, B; C) without providing convincing arguments based on WP:RS. – Βατο (talk) 12:16, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Βατο: You have this backwards. It's you who has to provide the convincing argument as to why the flags should be here (and in their respective articles) in the first place.
1. Brahaj shows a deteriorated image of Wied's flag without the shielded peacock which resembles more the flag found in the National History Museum. It looks nothing like the flag previously posted in this page and in the Principality of Albania article.
2. The Kingdom of Albania flag has as its source an amateur website created by a Robert Breschi. That flag does not resemble in any way the flag used by the Superior Fascist Corporative Council which can be seen here https://patrimonio.archivioluce.com/luce-web/imageViewPort/720?imageName=AL/AL045/AL00003498.JPG. In fact, the helmet in the modern recreation is a widely used variant created by user AceDouble https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Variant_of_the_Skanderbeg_Helmet.svg Neither the eagle nor the helmet match the flag seen in the Luce Institute Archive. Kj1595 (talk) 13:03, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

You have this backwards. It's you who has to provide the convincing argument as to why the flags should be here (and in their respective articles) in the first place. it does not work like that. The WP:STABLE has priority, and reliable sources are relevant here, not personal opinions. Brahaj reports all the three mentioned flags (Independent Albania, Principality of Albania, and Kingdom of Albania (Italian protectorate)). Commons:File:Flag of Albanian Provisional Government (1912-1914).svg is identical to the one reported in Brahaj 2007, p. 118; Commons:File:Flag of Albania (1914–1920).svg is identical to the one reported in Brahaj 2007, p. 129; while Commons:File:Flag of Albania (1939–1943).svg is similar to the one reported in Brahaj 2007, p. 136, with a slightly different eagle, which can be changed according to the source and restored into the article. – Βατο (talk) 13:35, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Βατο: As I already mentioned, the image of Prince Wied's flag in Brahaj's book is in a deteriorated form and is too blurry to reproduce in vector. In addition, three things make me question its authenticity: 1)Lack of a source and explanation as to where it was found; 2)Lack of the shielded peacock; 3)Gold star and slightly curvier/wider wings. Wied's star can and should only be shown in white. The flag housed at the National History Museum which happens to be an actual historical flag shows the shielded peacock and the precise form of the wingspan. The same form of the wingspan can be found in this 1923 illustration published by Kristo Luarasi's publishing house "Mbrothësia" https://scontent.ftij1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/163832306_1879115375579083_6856009514933860512_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=8XAXNmx-9dAAX8M2SKq&_nc_ht=scontent.ftij1-1.fna&tp=14&oh=48d0885456c2c7ef5d92e43cd211f5ac&oe=607B6FF9 or in the cover of this 1924 passport https://scontent.ftij1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/162880401_1879119052245382_7165296683563829369_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=P0Z3gA5hKtUAX-DaXoE&_nc_oc=AQnVqI1ucyOedypr1X3lajyJUT-sqCW584IOYO56qHyp_QclWWk7wRClvCXPjPf2nY0&_nc_ht=scontent.ftij1-1.fna&tp=14&oh=79cd2da7748bb77cf9883f66554836e7&oe=607EE6A1 - In other words, the historical flag currently on display at the national museum accurately depicts the forms of the eagle that match historical illustrations of the time. As far as the Kingdom of Albania flag is concerned, this is the image shown in Brahaj's book https://scontent.ftij1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/163503555_1879107862246501_525040417327750926_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=Lke89oqESNAAX_t6cBS&_nc_ht=scontent.ftij1-1.fna&tp=14&oh=c56def7c24a8056dc4586427c40d0929&oe=607D8B43 - Where in Commons can you show me an image that looks even remotely like that? Kj1595 (talk) 15:14, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595: There is sufficient documentation for this flag: Commons:File:Flag of Albania (1914–1920).svg, and in Brahaj's book (Brahaj 2007, p. 129) the difference is just the color of the star. The three things that "make you question its authenticity" are not relevant if they are not directly commented by reliable sources. The civil flag of the Italian Protectorate: Commons:File:Flag of Albania (1939–1943).svg is identical to the one depicted here: [130], and the one here [131], but as already stated, Brahaj's book reports a flag with a slightly different eagle, and it can be changed according to it, but it should be included because it is a well documented flag. – Βατο (talk) 16:15, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Βατο: Which sufficient documentation are you referring to because this the essence of this whole argument? Jaume Olle and Robert Breschi are not sufficient documentation. They are two amateur sites that contain flags which have no historical veracity. Brahaj's book, despite my doubts on the authenticity of Wied's flag, shows the flag in a blurry deteriorated form that is quite difficult to reconstruct. And how exactly is the fascist flag identical to the one in Brahaj's book? Are we seeing the same images? I showed you an actual historical image of the fascist flag, one that is documented by an OFFICIAL source such as Istituto Luce and yet you want to argue differently? You have no argument when you go against official documentation. Kj1595 (talk) 20:56, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

The pic in Brahaj 2007, p. 129 is not difficult to reconstruct, it is exactly the one depicted here: Commons:File:Flag of Albania (1914–1920).svg, with the star of a different color (the one in Commons is fine, as you've already stated: Wied's star can and should only be shown in white.). About the flag of the Italian protectorate, there exist versions like this one: Commons:File:Flag of Albania (1939–1943).svg, and others like this one: [132]. This specific dispute can be resolved just uploading a SVG image of the latter ([133]), which is supported by a specialized book. – Βατο (talk) 22:15, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

At this point, Wied's flag can be in pending status which means it can be used in the articles until more research is done and if new evidence is uncovered. As for the fascist flag, the current one cannot stand as it lacks credible historical sources. The one in Brahaj's book is a model recreation according to Brahaj himself so even that flag lacks validity. Until better evidence becomes available, it's pointless to rush and upload reimagined flags. Kj1595 (talk) 02:21, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I will work later on to reconstruct the flag of Independent Albania as shown on the cover page of the Perlindja e Shqipëniës newspaper. The neck of the eagle needs to be corrected from the current variant and also the color scheme has to closely match that in the illustration. Kj1595 (talk) 02:37, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595:@Βατο: Why is this[134] flag used in the Albanian Kingdom article and titled as if it is the national flag when it is the design of the royal banner as per the flag laws of 8 August 1929 which defined the civil and state versions of the national flag as well as the royal banner? The source[135] for the file even (correctly) calls it the "royal flag" (aka royal banner)? Shouldn't those flags be easy to define and identify based on those laws? Also, why is the edges of the .jpg file on the source website used as if those were the dimensions of the full flag?[136] --Havsjö (talk) 15:49, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: Albania was a Kingdom so naturally the royal flag would be the state flag. There are no records to indicate the state flag looked different from the royal flag. Just as there are no records to indicate the state emblem looked different from the royal emblem. All official documents were stamped usign the design of the royal emblem. The square shape is a continuation of the flag design from the Republic days when Zogu was president. Also, the royal court website specifically notes that the royal flag was used for all government institutions, the army and embassies abroad. Kj1595 (talk) 17:13, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Royal banner (i.e. flag of the monarch etc) is not the same as the as state flag. This is not the flag of the UK[137], nor this of the Netherlands[138]. Photos of the national flag exist + from flag-charts etc from that time, and the royal banner being square (as seen in [139]) doesnt mean the flag is cut off IRL where the .jpg image of the emblem on that web-page is --Havsjö (talk) 17:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Read the last sentence of my post again. Kj1595 (talk) 17:40, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

One more thing. The current royal emblem, which I designed based on the official model and intended to use only for the House of Zogu article, is slightly different from the historical one. I have begun work in reconstructing the historical emblem using historical images. The current royal emblem model has the added collier element which the historical image lacks. Kj1595 (talk) 17:48, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

"Albania was a Kingdom so naturally the royal flag would be the state flag", that is not "natural" at all, and the royal standard/banner is not the same as the state version of the national flag. (Btw, just those examples of the royal flags of UK and Netherlands show those are not the state flag, same in all other monarchies were there is a royal flag for the monarch etc.) The national flag can be seen in these videos[140][141], btw. Especially here since its shows it from a government building, and without the laurels of the royal banner[142]. The national flag vs the royal banner can be seen here[143], army holding vs haning in the backgroung between the Italian flags. The square shape of the file of the royal banner called "flag of albania" is way to small atm since its based on the edges of the .jpg instead of the full flag.... Here[144] can the royal banner be seen in its FULL square shape... Further, that royal website is not a vexillological site, they show the banner they have in possession (which can be seen in even photos of the late Prince Leka when he was young, so it seems to be what they have) and point out the "key difference" vis-a-vis the modern flag, the crown of skanderbeg. They do not even mention the laurels likely since this is not the "key" "kingdom element" vs today, since those were not present in other version of the kingdom-era flag (the state flag did not have it while the royal banner they show have it). Its not a website about the detailed differences of the flags of that time, after all. You will probably say "you are just theorizing" as if it is my word against that website, but the reality of this is seen with the actual written laws of that time which define these different flags, backed up with vexillological material from the time, and photos+videos... Even the "royals" in post-kingdom times display (inauthentic, but generally matching the design of the time) kingdom-era national flags (i.e. which are not specifically the royal banner).[145][146][147]. I do not understand how you can so easily dismiss the specific laws defining all these flags by these differnt roles, especially with the other proofs to back it up... ALSO, here the golden feet/beaks of the eagle of the republican times can be seen gleaming in the sun (matching the sources regarding such features...), at the time when the new royal flags had not yet been instated just after a kingdom was declared[148][149] (also a --Havsjö (talk) 18:02, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Comment: The box text has to be converted to regular text. The box format lowers accessibility for many people and it uses article space as a form of limited list space confined to a small box.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:22, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I removed the boxes. Still, the current layout needs improvement. I have to draft a way to mold the paragraphs into a single continuous article usign the german model. Kj1595 (talk) 20:01, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Battle of Deçiq

The historical background of the flag raised by Ded Gjo Luli at the Battle of Deçiq is discussed by:

• Verli, Marenglen (2014). "The role of Hoti in the uprising of the Great Highlands". Studime Historike (1–2)
• Pepo, Petraq (ed.) (1962) Kujtime nga lëvizja për çlirimin kombetar (1878-1912). University of Tirana (published on the 50th anniversary of the declaration of independence of Albania)

• I have removed a facebook post by Edi Rama - reposted at a website which casually hosts articles about "Pelasgians" - which links it to two unknown Albanian emigrants who came back from the US and brought it to Ded Gjo Luli. Bibliography doesn't discuss this event and these two figures are unknown. Facebook posts aren't reliable sources. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:28, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: I did some more research on this and a different version of the flag's history is provided by Palok Traboini based on his wikipedia page. Thanks for the correction. I will update the description shortly. Kj1595 (talk) 21:19, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Article layout

I updated the layout similar to the german model by removing the box and opening up the text and enlarging the size of the flags to their custom width. For the "Historical flags" section to look more presentable, the description text needs to be expanded. This can take time and more research. Kj1595 (talk) 23:57, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

@Havsjö: And btw, do you want to see proof why the sickle flag posted here is fictional? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Albania_(1944–1946).svg – Here is a historical image of the democratic government of 1944 in its first official gathering https://scontent.ftij1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/164000471_1880145662142721_8151588164118439675_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=110474&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=g37CctUPMdUAX-zCTmk&_nc_ht=scontent.ftij1-1.fna&tp=14&oh=5a706cd3ee708d48c74ab8a06a0535a7&oe=607E1ADA Kj1595 (talk) 00:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

That is a great photo, good to finally have some concrete info on that flag. As I mentioned I suspected the hammer-sickle flag to be of dubious accuracy since the flags carried by the partisans (while still at war and immediately after victory) was just the bird and nothing else on them --Havsjö (talk) 16:28, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Painting

@Βατο: Can you provide a credible source that links the painting to Skanderbeg? Kj1595 (talk) 18:32, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

This source here does not mention anything about Skanderbeg. It is highly unlikely the Albanian flag was painted in those colors and form as early as 1555. Kj1595 (talk) 18:36, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kj1595: that content was added by Maleschreiber. I checked the source: Nadin, Lucia (2013). Venezia e Albania: una storia di incontri e secolari legami. Regione del Veneto. p. 96. ISBN 978-88-97784-35-7. which is reliable, hence I restored it. Your original thoughts are not relevant in Wikipedia if not backed by reliable sources. I also noticed you removed sources from the article disrupting the Harv-style reference, don't do it, please. – Βατο (talk) 18:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

@Βατο: You said the source is reliable. Can you elaborate on that? Which page in the book are Skanderbeg and the painting mentioned together? Also, how is a bibliography of historical books relevant here? Inline citations are needed. This article is not a historical biography about the country of Albania. Kj1595 (talk) 19:08, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Lucia Nadin is an Italian medievalist whose long career has focused on interactions between Italy and Albania. Her late work is about the Albanian migrant communities in medieval Italy. She writes: In the church of San Sebastiano, the flag mainly refers to that of the gens of George Kastrioti Skanderbeg: a red flag with a bicephalic eagle, in the hand of Skanderbeg who recovered land and aimed at unifying his Country, the inhabitants of the lands involved left their previous ensigns to espoused that flag, according to the historian Marin Barleti. And therefore, in a certain way, up until the fifteenth century, Skanderbeg’s was the flag of the whole Country. Five centuries later, upon the proclamation of national independence, it became the official flag of Albania. The red flag with a black eagle accompanies the triumph of Mordecai, saviour of the Hebrew people from the Babylonians. (..) The paintings by Paolo Veronese had to make the church of San Sebastiano a place of celebration of Albania and Venice and of their combined history; a place, in this case religious, celebrating Albania as a borderland and the land of the struggle for Christianity represented by St. Mark’s lion. This is verifiable because when I added it, I produced a link to the book and cited a specific page. Articles about state flags have a background section in relation to WP:DUE. If you still don't want the article to mention the historical source of the Albanian flag, you can start a community discussion at WP:RFC. --Maleschreiber (talk) 19:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I read the pdf book file and it's mentioned in page 96. Lucia Nadin is known for her work with the Statutes of Scutari so I'm not trying to diminish her as a source. The way she describes the painting is more of an hypothesis. No other secondary sources link this painting to Skanderbeg. Kj1595 (talk) 19:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that the flag mainly refers to that of the gens of Skanderbeg reads as a hypothesis. The church of San Sebastiano was a center of Catholic Albanian monks. This painting is not a random object in a random building. It was paid for by specific social groups and had a specific meaning for them.

You have written a section about a supposed Flag of the Sofi Tekke of Petrelë (1880) - an Islamic banner with some Arabic inscriptions (offline citation) as a "historical flag". I'll remove it. Irrelevant Islamic banners are WP:OFFTOPIC.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:41, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Kingdom of Albania flag?

Heyo, I found this picture on Getty of Prince Leka in front of a royal Albanian flag at his house in Paris, another online of him around the time of the Civil War, one from the Guardian's obituary and just another I found on the web; I just wanted to confirm the details of it. Was the crown always a black outline or is this just a specific version Leka used?

There's also this close up of the royal family flag which indicates to me that the current wavy texture on the file that currently exists should be removed since its clearly just part of the way the flag is and not some special pattern; the person drawing it for the website just kept it in for whatever reason.

--Spiritual Sausage (talk) 02:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Havsjö Kj1595 either of you have any idea whats up with this? --Spiritual Sausage (talk) 10:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Those are flag recreations. The truth is, we have no existing evidence of the actual flag used during King Zog's reign. And same for the coat of arms. I know it is hard to believe but yet here we are. The communists destroyed any remaining evidence of the Zog era. For now, the recreated flag model in the royal website will have to do. Btw, it was called Albanian Kingdom, not to be confused with the Kingdom of Albania during fascist rule. Kj1595 (talk) 18:16, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Kj1595 at the very least could the wavy texture get removed off the current Albanian Kingdom file? it looks unnatural and judging by the picture of that specific flag IRL its only part of how the flag was made Spiritual Sausage (talk) 11:14, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I have tested it and it looks worse due to the fact that the shape of the eagle wingspan is uneven. That image is temporary. I will eventually find the historical flag and coat of arms. Just recently I found the official fascist flag and coat of arms and it will be uploaded here in this article soon. Kj1595 (talk) 18:03, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Shame about that but awesome to hear about the fascist ones! Spiritual Sausage (talk) 19:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Mercurio Bua Flag

@Arberian2444: You are repeatedly adding this flag illustration in the Historical Flags category. That is wrong for a number of reasons. First, this isn't an actual historical flag but an illustration of a flag found in a book. Second, even if it were an historical flag, it has nothing to do with the modern Albanian State or its history. Mercurio Bua may have been of Albanian origin, but he was in the services of the Venetian State. He did not fight for or served in any Albanian principality. This flag illustration has no correlation to the modern day Albanian flag in terms of direct historical linkage. You would need to provide proof of the contrary. Otherwise, do not include it in the Historical Flags section or you will be reported for disruptive behavior. Kj1595 (talk) 10:29, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

And the Flag for Aladro Kastriota I could say the Same exact thing for thats only a Postcard? And Buas Flag was Real it was an illistration showing of it no flag from the 1500s is gonna survive till now but it was recorded that he had a flag so your point? It is a historical Flag So I could say the same thing for Flag of the Bajrak of Kashnjeti (1878) Its not apart of the Modern Albanian state but is still listed? You make no sense a Historical Flag shows the Historical Flags depicting the albanian flag Just as buas is with the kastrioti coat of arms on his flag. So Your in the wrong But whatever.Arberian2444 (talk) 16:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Aladro's flag was not only found in postcards but also in the Albanian press as is already explained in the article. It was posted in the nationally syndicated Minerva Magazine in 1932.

The Bajrak of Kashnjeti flag was used at the League of Prizren, an historic event of great importance which laid the foundation of the newly formed Albanian State.

The Kastrioti coat of arms which really is an interpretation is perfectly suited because Skanderbeg is unquestionably linked with the history and the identity of the Albanian people. He fought and ruled in these lands.

Bua on the other hand has nothing to do with the history of Albania. And the flag given to him was a present by a foreign ruler.

It simply does not belong in the Historical Flags category for this very reason. However, due to image similarities (red background, black two-headed eagle), it can stay in the article as is in the Other Flags section. The only way it may be included in the Historical Flags section is if we can prove a direct historical link between the flag and historical events related to the Albanian inhabited lands at the time. Kj1595 (talk) 00:37, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

More on links to other flags

Shouldn’t the article mention the (quite obvious) link to other countries also using the double headed eagle coat of arms on their flag (as well as the links to other noble families in the region, ex the Crnojevic family) and the origin from the Byzantine empire? Ossianthegreat (talk) 11:45, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

1992

Why is there no mention of the 1992 version of the flag (as can be seen on Timeline of national flags? The file is saved here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_national_flags#/media/File:Flag_of_Albania_(1992%E2%80%932002).svg

Blood red ≠ #FF0000

§ III.1: “… blood red …”. But “#FF0000” = “RGB: 255–0–0” is a bright red, not a blood red. I suspect that the RGB is wrong. JDAWiseman (talk) 20:10, 7 September 2022 (UTC)