Talk:First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland

(Non-)capitalisation of 'deputy'

Does the Assembly ruling that 'deputy' not be capitalised have precedence over the rules of the written language? I've noticed several instances of 'deputy' remaining in lower case at the beginning of bulleted lists (e.g. in the infobox on the Northern Ireland article). Surely this rule is only meant to be for comparative purposes, i.e. when referring to both the First Minister and the deputy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magicandmedicine (talk • contribs) 18:44, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

It should be capitalised at the start of a sentence, per normal English grammar. — Jon C.^ॐ 08:38, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

No it shouldn't, read the article. Mo ainm~Talk 09:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, ignore me, the rules of the language evidently don't apply in this instance because the authority of the Northern Irish Assembly over-rules them. Give me strength. Of course it's capitalised at the start of a sentence. EVERYTHING is. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:14, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Depends really if we are dealing with a title or comparative purposes. Heres two official sources and both are different: Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister and Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:14, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Jon C., my question was ironic/rhetorical.::::: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magicandmedicine (talk • contribs) 22:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible article change

Would it be alright to move to First Minister and deputy First Minister (Northern Ireland)? GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

No. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:00, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Images

Anyone have any objections to the revamping of the article primarily to deal with the atrocity that is this section? The repeated images (obviously Trimble is the worst example, due to it being there a pointless 3 times) do nothing, and I'm sure we could incorporate most of the images elsewhere in the article and return the table to a more sensible format? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:00, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

File:SirRegEmpery.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Diarchy

I've replaced the statement about the positions being a diarchy with the more accurate and verifiable

The two positions share resposiblities within government.

Firstly, a diarchy refers to joint heads of state and Northern Ireland is not a state and the Queen's representative would be its head if it were. A source would be needed to show that this term has been applied to the NI excutive. Secondly, the sources that I have seen state the posts have equal responsiblities which does not imply equal power. As NI is a parlimentary system the power of the First Minister is derived from the support of MLAs. Although this is somewhat mitigted by the arrangments under which the govenment operates an assertion that they have equalised their power would need a reliable source to back it up. Eckerslike (talk) 19:55, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Resignation of FM & dFM on 11/01/2016

Should the table for dFM - Martin McGuinness not be split as at 11/01/2016 as the position of dFM also became vacant with Pater Robinson's resignation? --Gavin Lisburn (talk) 01:50, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Photo of the new FM and dFM

There is a photo of Arlene Foster's and Michelle O'Neill's first meeting as FM and dFM, which can be accessed below. I'm not an expert on copyright policy, so I wouldn't know if it's appropriate to use this image or if Boyes (who holds the copyright) would have to be contacted to use this image. Many thanks. Caden Ó Cearrúláin (talk) 15:01, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Never mind, that's been sorted now. Caden Ó Cearrúláin (talk) 20:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

References

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Difference between 2002-2007 and 2017-2020

The article seems to treat the two periods of suspension as different. On the timeline 2002-2007 is labelled "Direct Rule" and 2017-2020 is labelled "Office Vacant". The Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland are listed as "Direct Rule First Ministers" and shown in the timeline for the first period, but not for the second. Is there a reason for the different treatment? MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 21:41, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@MrWeeble: Direct rule is where the British Government suspends, via primary legislation, the NI Assembly's power to pass Acts, and instead makes Orders in Council that have the same power as an NI Act. This was done in 1972 through the Northern Ireland (Temporary Provisions) Act 1972 and done again in 2000 through the Northern Ireland Act 2000. In the period between 2000-2007, during the periods of Assembly rule, this Act was suspended, and then revived when direct rule was reinstituted. This continued until it was repealed in 2007 by the Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act 2006. That was the last time there was direct rule.

The 2000 Act said in the Schedule section 4(1)(a):

any functions of the First Minister and the deputy First Minister may be discharged by the Secretary of State

so the NI Secretary was in effect the First Minister.

For the 2017-20 period, no Act was passed to suspend the Assembly and the Government couldn't make Orders in Council in place of NI Acts. Therefore, it wasn't direct rule. See this. --Inops (talk) 14:25, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Both positions now officially vacant

With Foster's resignation taking effect at 13:00, O'Neill also had to step down from her position, leaving a seven-day interregnum. Culloty82 (talk) 12:17, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for this! I've already dropped an apology here to the IP whose edits I reversed before. The reason was that they didn't use a reliable source. I hope that everything is okay now. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 12:34, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Yet the Executive remains in place

This seems the most sensible place for a central discussion.

Despite an IP editor updating various ministerial articles claiming the Executive has been dissolved, this is not the case (to the best of my knowledge). Sky News for example say If the two largest parties cannot reach agreement on the issue in seven days, the Stormont executive will collapse, and While her successor, Mr Poots, can appoint other ministers to the executive, the first minister and deputy first ministers are elected jointly under mandatory coalition. So while the FM and dFM positions are currently vacant, the Executive remains in place. Or it does, in the absence of references that say otherwise, despite the IP's claims. FDW777 (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. I agree that it seems that the executive has not been dissolved. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:18, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

References

New Rules from 2006

The new rules from 2006 also state that, if the largest party of the largest designation happens not to also be the largest party in the assembly overall, then the appointment procedure would be as follows:

   a First Minister nominated by the largest party overall;
   a deputy First Minister nominated by the largest party of the largest designation.

Following the 2022 Northern Ireland Assembly election, this contingency may come to pass, but I cannot actually find words to this effect in the legislation cited. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 20:06, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

See the Northern Ireland Act 1998, s 16C(6). You're right that this should be better referenced and I'll go ahead and fix this. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:27, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

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David Trimble

David Trimble has died recently Katherine Northey (talk) 18:55, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Ulster-Scots infobox title

Isn't 'Northern Ireland' in Ulster Scots, 'Norlin Airlan(n)' not 'Northern Ireland'? As in the infobox, since it was added in 2022. DankJae 23:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 09:08, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

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First Minister and deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland → First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland – Per WP:COMMONNAME, "Deputy" is capitalized far more than it is not.[1] Additionally, the Good Friday Agreement capitalizes the term [2]. BBC also capitalizes "Deputy" [3][4]. The NI Executive does lowercase "deputy"[5], but we should give more weight to the WP:SECONDARY sources, rather than primary sources. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The capitalisation was dropped at the time of the St Andrews Agreement, so talking about it being absent from the GFA is a moot point. Plus, viewing the ngram chart you linked to, if you take the sum of "deputy first minister of Northern Ireland" and "deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland", the two combined appear to be greater than "Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland" is currently. The NI Executive de-capitalises 'deputy' as a deliberate policy - many secondary sources are likely not capitalising it as a deliberate stylistic choice, but simply because they aren't aware that, officially, it is specifically not capitalised. I've also found BBC articles which style it as "deputy first minister" - no capitals at all - and if that reflects anything, it reflects the BBC's own stylisation policy. PointUnderstander (talk) 18:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

You'd have to assume that all results for "deputy first minister" (no caps" are just sentence casings of "deputy First Minister", which is impossible to prove and WP:OR. And in any case, a term doesn't have to be more used than all others combined for it to be the WP:COMMONNAME, it just has to be the most common, which in this case "Deputy First Minister" is by far more common. The title is also capitalized in the St Andrews Agreement, so that point is moot. [6] To your point on the BBC, there own style guide says Political job titles have initial caps only when the title is next to the name...[7], and in both articles neither usage of "deputy first minister" was preceding a name. This is also why "first minister" was not capitalized at all. The capitalized version is the common name in reliable secondary sources, and Wikipedia is based on reliable, published secondary sources. estar8806 (talk) ★ 17:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support: I'm surprised no one has brought up MOS:OFFICE here yet. It says to capitalise the title of an office "When a formal title for a [single] specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description". There is only one deputy first minister at a time, if I understand correctly, so this is about a specific entity. An article about that position would therefore use capital letters under Wikipedia's usual convention. If some off-Wikipedia guideline differs, the question then becomes whether that other styling is dominant in practice or not in independent reliable sources (with an emphasis on independent). Unless there is clear evidence of consistent usage of the other variant in independent reliable sources (which doesn't seem to be the case), then Wikipedia should not use it, regardless of whether someone declares it to be "official" for their purposes or not. Re: "The capitalisation was dropped" – by whom? Using lowercase for a single word in this multi-word title may be someone's "deliberate policy", but Wikipedia is not obliged to agree with someone else's "deliberate policy". In fact, Wikipedia should deliberately resist other people's attempts to manipulate the language to fulfil their policy goals. Their policy goals are not our policy goals. The term "deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland" is quite strange-looking to anyone familiar with ordinary English orthography. Ordinary practice might be to use sentence case or to use title case, but not to use lowercase for an isolated word like that. Wikipedia is not part of the office of the Northern Ireland Executive and is under no obligation to help them promulgate their styling preferences. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:29, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support—per BarrelProof and long-standing en.WP practice. Tony (talk) 00:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.