Talk:Finno-Ugric peoples

Contested deletion

1. The Cambridge Dictionary shows that the term "Finno-Ugric" can have the meaning "Finno-Ugric pepoles" in English. This proves that this term is used in English.

2. Evidence of the use this term in English by experts in this area. The organizers (they are experts in Finno-Ugric languages, and Finno-Ugric anthropology and ethnology) of the largest international forum in this area World Congress of Finno-Ugric Peoples use this term. The term "Finno-Ugric peoples" is the part of name of this international congress World Congress of Finno-Ugric Peoples, which has been held from 1992 to the present day.

3. At the World Congress of Finno-Ugric Peoples and at two other large international forums International Congress for Finno-Ugric Studies and International Finno-Ugric Students' Conference:

• Consider aspects relevant to the Finno-Ugric pepoles as ethnic groups such as culture, anthropology, ethnography, religion not only language aspects.
• Aspects of culture, origin, anthropology and etc are considering for all Finno-Ugric peoples (Finnc and Ugric origin) together.

Based on the fact that large international forums consider the Finnc and Ugric peoples together and consider many aspects associated with ethnic groups: ethnography, archaeology, history, folkloristics, sociology, literature, mythology (not only languages), then Wikipedia should reflect various non-linguistic aspects of these peoples in the article Finno-Ugric peoples.

4. Not all of Finno-Ugric peoples now use Finno-Ugric languages, for example Qaratays (speaking Tatar language but preserving Mordvins self-identity), Livonians (speaking Latvian use Livonian only as a heritage language), Babin Saami (speaking Russian but preserving Saami self-identity), Magyarab (speaking Arabic).

5. There are peoples who speak almost the same language, but differ ethnically, for example, the Võros and Setos, or the Udmurts and the Bessermyans. On the other hand, there are peoples who have the same ethnic identification, but who speak different Finno-Ugric languages, for example, the Mordvins. Some people speaking different Moksha language and Erzya language but have a common ethnic identification - Mordvins, another part identifies themselves as Moksha people and Erzya people. All these complex ethnic aspects need to be covered in a separate article - Finno-Ugric peoples.

6. In many other languages (other language editions of Wikipedia), an analogue of the term "Finno-Ugric peoples" is used to generically refer to these peoples.

7. The situation with the Turkic languages and Turkic peoples is similar to the situation with the Finno-Ugric languages and Finno-Ugric peoples. There are both articles in the English section of Wikipedia and cover different aspects: Turkic peoples and Turkic languages.

To summarize the above, there should be an article in Wikipedia in which the Finno-Ugric peoples would be considered as a collection of ethnic groups and not as a linguistic family. This article should consider the following topics: ethnography, archaeology, folkloristics, religion, genetics, taking into account the fact of the common origin of these peoples, including peoples who are not part of the Finno-Ugric linguistic community, but belong to the Finno-Ugric peoples.

NOTE: Sub-section Finno-Ugric languages#Population genetics) relevant to the Finno-Ugric peoples (ethnic groups) but not Finno-Ugric languages. This section should be considered in an article dedicated to Finno-Ugric ethnic groups but not Finno-Ugric languages.

--Ubaleht (talk) 20:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Last update Ubaleht (talk) 13:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the article should exist. The concept of Finno-Ugric peoples might initially seem completely arbitrary from the scientific (linguistic) point of view: why should these people be grouped like this, and not with e.g. with their geographical neighbours, with which they have much more shared culture? But this fiction obtains an element of reality throught its adoption by the people as their identity. In particular, it is important for Finnish and Estonian national identity, and it also used play a role in the Hungarian identity. Nowadays the situation in Hungary is different, but this is also something to report. There are many societies and projects in Finland/Estonia and elsewhere which are based on the idea of Finnish-Ugric peoples, and this topic easily passes notability criteria.

Here are some good references which might be useful in improving the article:

• Saarinen, Sirkka (2010-08-21). "The Myth of a Finno-Ugrian Community in Practice". Nationalities Papers. 29 (1): 41–52. doi:10.1080/00905990120036376. ISSN 0090-5992.
• Taagepera, Rein (2001-03-01). "Eastern Finno-Ugrian Cooperation and Foreign Relations". Nationalities Papers. 29 (1): 181–199. doi:10.1080/00905990120036457. ISSN 0090-5992.
• Sommer, Łukasz (2014). "Historical Linguistics Applied: Finno-Ugric Narratives in Finland and Estonia". The Hungarian Historical Review. 3 (2): 391–417. ISSN 2063-8647.
• Situation of Finno-Ugric and Samoyed Peoples
• Grünthal, Riho (2005-06-07). "Selvitys Suomen sukukansaohjelmasta" [A report on Finland's program on kindred peoples]. julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi (in Finnish). Retrieved 2023-12-24.
• "Suomensukuiset hupenevat" [Finno-Ugric peoples are vanishing]. Ulkopolitiikka (in Finnish). 2015-12-15. Retrieved 2023-12-24.

Jähmefyysikko (talk) 14:17, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

References

History of this page

See the thread Talk:Finnic peoples#Changes from Finno-Ugric to Finnic conserning the history of this page. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 10:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)