Talk:Finnish Air Force UFO sighting

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	This article was accepted from this draft on 19 December 2018 by reviewer Legacypac (talk · contribs).

Finland

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Paranormal

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Notability

@Dan arndt and Jovanmilic97: As is usual, the creator of this draft has not done much to present the amount of sources out there. I would not consider this as a NOTNEWS case; this "breaking news" broke half a century ago and new sources are still being written about it. It would be best to judge against WP:GNG. Here are some sources that I know have coverage about this topic:

Kuningas, Tapani (1970). Ufoja Suomen taivaalla (in Finnish). Helsinki: Kirjayhtymä. OCLC 463080606.
Koivula, Tapani (1992) [1988]. Ufoja Suomen taivaalla (in Finnish) (2nd ed.). Helsinki: WSOY. ISBN 951-0-15079-7.
Miekka, Raimo. Ufot: Aikamme mysteeri (Video) (in Finnish).
af Grann, Juhan. Vieraita taivaalta (Video) (in Finnish).
Virolainen, Harri; Virolainen, Ilkka (2014). Yliluonnollisten ilmiöiden ensyklopedia (in Finnish). Helsinki: Tammi. ISBN 978-951-31-7926-7.
Haapanen, Atso (2009). Puolustusvoimien ufohavainnot 1933-1979 (in Finnish). Jyväskylä: UFO-Finland. ISBN 978-951-98374-7-5.
Countless newspaper articles (I'll list some upon request) and websites

Yours – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:20, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This draft got declined second time with same two reasons: being based only on newspaper articles and not being notable enough for a Wikipedia article. Neither of those reasons are actually valid for declining this article, atleast now when I added new sources. This article is not based only on news reports. It has also other sources than just newspaper articles. Iltalehti was only newspaper source that article had. One of the 3 sources was FURORA (which is finnish organization for UFO-research and one of them was Yle, which is large media, that has TV, Radio, Internet features, it is not a newspaper. Yle is actually Finland's national public broadcasting company. Atleast two books and UFO documentary movies tell about this incident. I now added to my article new sources: one book and two documentary movies. And about not being notable enough for Wikipedia, this incident is only UFO-incident to be officially acknowledged by Finnish Air Force and one of the best officially verified UFO-cases in the world. It can be compared to Condon Report's Case 2 in Greenwich, which was one of the best cases in whole research to give real evidence about UFOs. Condon Report said in its conclusion for that atleast one real UFO was probably reported. That research called Condon Report was made by The Condon Committee, funded by the United States Airforce to have a scientific research on UFOs. This case being similar to this Case 2 and being one of the best cases to give real evidence for UFOs, and being also known elsewhere than Finland, and being mentioned also in books and movies and several publications, means that this article is in fact notable enough for being in Wikipedia. Finnish Air Force sighting can be already found in finnish Wikipedia as Porin seitsemän ilmapalloa and should be accepted also for english Wikipedia.

Zulrah (talk) 09:17, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

After running the Finnish texts through Google translate, I see this is a typical UFO tale. Pilots say they see something but nothing certain can be verified, and so UFOlogists portray it as mysterious, unexplainable, and otherworldly. The Yle Uutiset story gives details "according to UFO researchers". The Ilta Sanomat story imparts a slight tabloid spin, but at least tempers it with a non-flying saucer explanation from the military. I'm not sure those two sources are enough to pass WP:EVENTCRITERIA. - LuckyLouie (talk) 03:29, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think this article is now quite good and written quite well according to what two sources are saying, and also written to be from a neutral point of view on this subject. Only thing which should be changed to make this article written just like sources tell is to change this sentence "Undetermined radar images were also later reported 200 kilometers away in Vaasa." to this sentence "Undetermined radar images were also reported in the same minute 200 kilometers away in Vaasa." I know this sentence makes this to sound like those objects were real UFOs but that is just what sources say. This Yle (Finland's national public broadcasting company) which is one of those two sources, gives a story according to UFO researchers, but it also states that Jouko Kuronen from Finnish Defence Forces confirmed this story to be true. Another source, Ilta-Sanomat, is a finnish evening newspaper that is telling what Ruotuväki (Magazine published by Finnish Defence Forces told.) Ruotuväki told exactly same way about the incident that Ilta-Sanomat wrote. I would have used Ruotuväki as a source instead of Ilta-Sanomat if this article in Ruotuväki would have been found from Ruotuväki-magazines homepage, but it is not there. Zulrah (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:45, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'm glad you like the copyediting. So I have reviewed the source articles again. In Yle, the claim that the objects were detected 200 miles away "in the same minute" is an interview quote of a remark from an author of a UFOlogy book. Per WP:EXTRAORDINARY, we'd need several high quality sources to include this claim in the way I think you want it to be included (i.e. to suggest amazing impossible speed). And while it's true Jouko Kuronen was an FDF pilot (albeit in training), he doesn't have any special status, is not a spokesperson for the FDF, and on WP, anecdotes, even from people who fly planes, don't automatically carry any more weight that anyone else. Anyhow, I'm still not sure the article would survive an WP:AFD even in this shape, but I'm not going to file one myself. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:33, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that this claim for objects to reach Vaasa in the same minute that they left Pori, can't be included now to this article, because we would need several high quality sources for the claim. That claim is true still as I saw it on Ruotuväki myself. So this is what Finnish Defence Forces actually states. It is sad that this article from Ruotuväki-magazine is not included in the magazine's homepage. Even if it was there, we still do not have enough reliable sources to add this claim for Wikipedia. When you say the speed being impossible, it is not actually impossible. For example rockets made by human can go also over 10000 km/h. Still with human-technology it is impossible to make disc or ball shaped objects that go this fast without any sign of a rocket engine. It is bad that UFOs are generally thought as paranormal and impossible. It is nothing supernatural if (and when) there is life on other planets too in this universe, and it is not impossible for biologically more evolved lifeforms to have technology that humans can't understand. Zulrah (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:21, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]