Talk:Fiat CR.42 Falco/Archive 1

Archive 1

References

Both the Mushroom book itself and Amazon.cu.uk also list the two ISBN nrs. ISBN-13 is supposed to replace the normal ISBN in the near future.Dirk P Broer 14:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

With the majority of published works from 1966-2007 only listing an ISBN (the so-called 10 protocol), you would only be able to find the ISBN -13 on published works from 1 January 2007 (some earlier editions also supplied the number), but it would not be counter-productive to list both. Again, in citations and bibliographical referencing, noting the ISBN is merely an optional note as it has more to do with locating the item in a bookseller's directory and really does not fall into a reference tracing. Most researched works prior to the 2000s, rarely identified the ISBN, it is now added (in practice) but there is no real need for it in a bibliographical record. IMHO Bzuk 15:51, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Operators

Finland: I have my doubts about the Finns ever using the CR.42. The Gloster Gladiator, yes. The Fiat G.50 (Also known as Falco) also. But to my knowledge no Fiat CR.42's. Dirk P Broer 15:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Technically an operator of the Fiat CR.42, although Finland purchased the type, it never served operationally. During the Winter War, the Finish Air Force ordered a few CR 42 aircraft. They arrived too late to see service and the Finns sold them to the Swedish Air Force, at the time, desperately short of modern equipment. The first 12 Finnish CR 42s were complemented with more aircraft bought later, in total, 72 aircraft in Swedish service. Bzuk 16:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

The Underdog

It's nice to think of the CR.42 and its pilots as plucky underdogs full of fighting spirit, and I understand the desire to emphasise the aircraft's victories and play down its losses. However I believe the article goes too far in this direction. Someone with a hard heart needs to insert a paragraph explaining, with references, exactly how much more advanced the competition was, both in terms of technology and combat tactics; how ineffective it was in furthering Mussolini's aims; and ideally how and why air force of Fascist Italy came to enter the most important conflict of its short history armed with aircraft that could not force or sustain the initiative in air combat. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 21:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

You make a very valid point, but since the article is about the aircraft alone, that is beyond the scope of the article, and the issue you are talking about is mentioned in Military history of Italy during World War II. I think that Gian Piero's edits are aimed at dispelling the myth of Italian aviators and aircraft being inferior by default. He is right, the reason that Italian equipment was inferior is mainly due to Mussolini's Autarky policy (engine reliability issues were caused by unavailability of exotic materials), which as far I've seen is never mentioned in articles concerning Italy in WWII.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 22:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This article and many of the Italian articles of the same ilk are skirting and even transgressing into POV by glossing over relatively "standard" sources to find some sources that may or may not be as verifiable. A question of WP:Weight may also be involved. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 23:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC).

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Fiat CR.32 which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RFC bot 05:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Last biplane kill

A discussion about this factoid can be found at Talk:P-38_Lightning#Last_biplane_kill. Thanks. Binksternet (talk) 21:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The last biplane kill was achieved by a Polikarpov Po-2 against F-94 Starfire in the Korean war Hammerfrog (talk) 09:35, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Hidden text

Inserted here for posterity.

That same night, Stormo Commander Tenente Colonnello Armando François took off in a CR.42 (probably from the 238a Squadriglia) and over Fuka at 500 meters he attacked an unidentified enemy twin-engined bomber, which fell on the sea four km off the coast. After landing and rearming, Tenente Giulio Reiner took off again in the same aircraft. Radio-guided, he climbed to 2,500 meters, and attacked a bomber, just at the moment that the twin-gun tail turret of it started to shoot at him. During approach to landing, Reiner saw a big explosion followed by a fire on the ground. The following morning, the burned-out wreck of a Wellington was found, 10 km south-east of Fuka. It was Wellington DV514/U of 70 Squadron that had taken off from LG 86 earlier that night.

On 23 November "At 14.48, about 10km. S.E of Harwich was engaged fight against 25 Spitfire and Hurricane. A violent fight follows lasted about 20 minutes, during which nine English fighters are shot down and four more are probable. Three planes do not come back to the base, two have been hit by enemy machine guns. Explode bullets: cal. 12,7 number 2426, cal. 7,7 number 5209." " Luftwaffe intelligence confirmed the nine Italian victories- Among the others, Sergeant Giuseppe Ruzzin, "ace-to-be", awarded with four Medaglie al Valor Militare with German Iron cross, was credited with one Hurricane destroyed and one damaged. The RAF claimed nine BR.20 destroyed and one damaged, five CR.42s destroyed, four probably destroyed and three damaged while two Hurricanes were damaged.

- On 6 November, the CR.42s led by Capitano Raffi and "ace" Mario Visintini from 412^a Squadriglia clashed with the Gladiators of 1 SAAF Squadron and shot down 24-year-old Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Howard Savage (RAF no. 37483) (L7614) and Pilot Officer Kirk (K7969), forcing Pilot Officer J. Hamlyn to crash-land his aircraft (L7612). Meawhile Major Schalk van Schalkwyk (N5855) of 1 SAAF Squadron was attacked by Fiat biplanes that put his plane in flames and forced him to bale out, but he did not survive. Captain Brian Boyle took off to van Schalkwyk’s assistance but was himself immediately attacked and wounded and he had to crash land. That day, around midday, another flight of Gladiators was intercepted, while trying to attack Caproni Ca.133 bombers and Flying Officer Haywood (K7977) was hit and crashed in flames. South Africans claimed to have shot down two Fiat, but only Sottotenente Rosmino's aircraft was hit and he returned with his parachute pack riddled with bullets. Two or three of these victories were credited to Capitano Visintini.---individual battles are not important

-individual battles should not be recorded--- On 29 December, Franco De Michelis and Osvaldo Bartolozzi, from 413^a Squadriglia, during a 10-minute dogfight in the Bardery area, managed to shoot down two Hurricanes from 2 Squadron SAAF.--

---In the morning of 14 April 1941, on Tobruk, Sottotenente Franco Bordoni-Bisleri and Maresciallo Guido Fibbia from 95a Squadriglia, claimed to have shot two Hawker Hurricanes that were attacking Italian and German Stukas in action on Tobruk harbour.

In April 1941, with delivery of the first 14 CR.42 Bombe Alari (Wing Bombs), the Italians began to use the CR.42 mainly as a fighter-bomber, performing well due to its strong construction and radial engine.

On 19 June 1942, the last 82 CR.42s came back to Italy.

English Channel

"The first night interception was performed on the night of 13–14 August 1940 by Capitano Giorgio Graffer, when he located and opened fire on a British Armstrong Whitworth Whitley bomber that had been sent to attack Turin. When his guns jammed, Graffer rammed the bomber before bailing out. The bomber had been badly damaged and subsequently crashed into the English Channel whilst attempting to return to its base.[34]"

Was Turin attacked by British aircraft based in England itself? I make the air distance at about 750 miles on a direct route or 1500 mile round trip with a bomb load. " . . . the first RAF bombing raid on Italy, only a few hours after Italy's declaration of war; the Whitleys bombed Turin and Genoa, reaching Northern Italy via a refuelling stop in the Channel Islands.[21][23)" The Whitley apparently had an official range of 1500 miles. I don't see how refueling in the Channel Islands would really help with this, but I guess this really happened.Seki1949 (talk) 08:01, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Balkans and Aegean

During the last months of 1940 and throughout 1941, the Falco was a front line combat aircraft, deployed as an escort fighter and interceptor, in Greece, in the Balkans, and over the Aegean Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. "The Falco fought well in the sky of Greece, where it tackled its equivalent, the Gladiator, which the Fiat could dominate in speed and armament."

In spite of its maneuverability, the Falco suffered numerous defeats. During the early stages of the invasion of Greece, Capitano Giorgio Graffer - the first Regia Aeronautica pilot to perform a night interception - shot down four aircraft, but on 28 November 1940, was in turn killed in action over Delvinakion, in a dogfight with Gladiators of No. 80 Squadron flown by the aces Marmaduke Pattle and Flying Officer Nigel "Ape" Cullen. Graffer was posthumously awarded the Gold Medal for Military Valour in recognition of his heroism. In early 1941 the arrival of Hurricanes caused heavy Fiat losses.

For instance, on 27 February, RAF claimed to have destroyed seven CR.42s (two more were claimed to have collided under attack), for no losses, but actually only two Fiat biplanes were downed (and two Blenheims crash landed after the CR.42s attacks). And on 28 February, Air Vice Marshal in Greece, J.H. d'Albiac, in his official report, wrote that a Hurricane unit shot down 27 Italian aircraft, including 13 Fiat CR.42 destroyed, 3 probable and 1 damaged. "But that day", recalled Capitano Corrado Ricci, "we lost only a CR.42, while our pilots claimed four Glosters and a Hurricane. During the whole Greek Campaign, the Regia Aeronautica lost exactly 50 aircraft in combat with enemy fighters." ---in dispute---

References

Last claimed biplane kill

The article on the Po-2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_Po-2)

says that the NKPA claimed a kill of a USAF F-86 with a Po-2, April 15, 1953. Citing Air Force Magazine, June 2011, pg. 57.