Talk:Ferrari F154 engine

Alfa Romeo Giulia

Interesting information here on the Giulia Quadrifoglio engine...

So the Quattroruote article, according to citations in the Giulia page (I was unable to locate the article myself), claims that the Giulia uses a version of the Ferrari F154 engine with two less cylinders. In the AutoWeek article that I read, it said that it was a version derived from the Ferrari/Maserati engineered V6 used in the Ghibli and Quattroporte. That article is available here/here.

That article is the only one that I could find that provide specifics on the engine of the Giulia...

One that is available everywhere, one that I can't find. I'd go with the information from the AutoWeek article, which was also in Automotive News before.

Jaredclce (talk) 19:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Found this source too. Jaredclce (talk) 20:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

As an additional comment, Automotive News is highly, highly reputable, as well (basically the most reputable for this type of news). Jaredclce (talk) 20:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Luca Cifferi is unreliable source about FCA and FCA hater. If that's Larry P. Vellequette's article than it's other way round. But I gave you picture of engine where it's written V6 90° on engine. http://s17.postimg.org/3lvi908zz/cxcv9726.jpg Also there are articles about its origin and configuration. http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2016-alfa-romeo-qv-is-more-than-meets-the-eye-video-photo-gallery-97109.html http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/alfa-romeo/seven-surprises-on-new-alfa-romeo-giulia-revealed-by-chief-engineer/ So, I ask you to stop false story about connection of this engine to Ferrari F160 engine better known as Maserati's V6 as in Ghibli and QP. --FGA cheerleader (talk) 09:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Jaredclce, FGA cheerleader is right. Let me add that you're quoting articles from June, when details about the car were obviously scarce. Since then Krief has spoken to several magazines. I can assure you the Quattroruote article cited in the Giulia article overtly talks of "Ferrari V8" derivation, interior dimensions similar to the V8, and cylinder displacement under half a litre. —Cloverleaf II (talk) 09:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Having said that, I don't think this page should go any deeper than making a brief reference to the Giulia's engine. It's not an F154, given what we know the two engines are simply related. —Cloverleaf II (talk) 09:56, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

If I have a good memory than Krief in some conversations stated that F154 was planed as modular V6/V8 from the start. But yes, maybe it has different designation than F154. Surely it's not a Ferrari F160 engine. The reason why we don't see broader application of this V6 block is sand cast molding which is unsuited for mass production unlike F160 which has die cast block. Also I now saw that someone altered Alfa Romeo Giulia article with concept car hints even if we all know it wad not a concept but a pre-production car. --FGA cheerleader (talk) 10:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Fixed that already. Exactly, the 90° V6 will presumably be limited to high-perfomance six cylinder models—even Maserati's, given the outputs listed in last year's product plan. It is designed to be a "niche" engine. To counter the 335i and S4 I think they'll use the F160 in the Giulia too. —Cloverleaf II (talk) 11:11, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Very well... FGA cheerleader before you imply (or more) that I was trying to pass a false story, I was simply using what concrete sources were available to me, which were contradictory of that. How valid they may have been in regards to when they were produced, well, perhaps that is another story.

I agree with [[User: Cloverleaf II|Cloverleaf II], though, in that it should be a brief mention because, to our knowledge, it isn't really a F154 engine (if someone can find another article or something to say it is then ok). Jaredclce (talk) 11:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Cloverleaf II, unless they remove the two turbos from the F160, they probably wouldn't be using that engine (if I remember correctly, there's supposed to be the turbo 6 in the QV, non-turbo 6, and turbo 4). Also, is there a lot of information on that F160 engine? I can't find an article on Wikipedia on it. Jaredclce (talk) 11:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I can assure you that there will not be a naturally aspirated V6 for Alfa and not only that but we can expect V6 only north of 400 HP. F160 engine which is in Maserati is based around revised American block but everything else is designed by Ferrari and Paolo Martinelli worke on its design. http://www.pentastars.com/engines/ferrari.php The most accurate rumors and news about Italian cars can be found on Autopareri. http://www.autopareri.com/forum/meccanica-ed-innovazioni-tecniche/59581-maserati-v6-e-v8-bi-turbo-id-e-nuova-4x4-magna-steyr.html --FGA cheerleader (talk) 11:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Jaredclce, there is more articles about F160's origins. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140908/OEM01/309089978/maseratis-secret:-chrysler-makes-its-engine-blocks Actually unfinished blocks were produced in USA from the start but were machined at Webber. Engine itself was always assembled in Maranello and Ferrari redesigned block, designed heads and all of ancillaries with Maserati's collaboration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FGA cheerleader (talk • contribs) 12:02, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I actually don't trust the Pentastar web page when it comes to the topic of what the F160 was based off of -- they claim that it was based off the Pentastar engine, but I can't find any publications that solidly say it was, and I seem to recall seeing a press release or an interview with Harald J. Wester (Maserati and Alfa Romeo CEO) saying it wasn't actually related to the Pentastar...I could be wrong/mistaken, but I'll see if I can find that. I do know, though (as you said), that Ferrari started building the blocks, but then as they needed more, they moved it to a special part of Chrysler's Kokomo facility that was kind of sealed off and under the supervision of Ferrari engineers for casting the blocks (like the article says), and then off to Ferrari for the rest (I guess there's that Trenton Engine piece in the middle for the blocks though). I don't know if you've ever driven a car with that engine, but it's actually a wonderful motor, at least in Maserati S Q4 guise.

There was a forum on MaseratiLife where a bunch of people were thinking that engine was underrated off of a couple of dyno charts which seemed to be bad readings because one person on the forum went out and got 340 whp (accounting for a 20% drivetrain loss, that's 408 bph), but then someone else got 443 bph (same drivetrain loss), someone else got similar numbers as well. Interestingly as well, Novitec claims that their chip tune on the 410 bph one can bring it to 476 bph...so I expect with that chip tune it'd be making even more than that. Which is why I was kind of surprised they went with this engine based off the F154...it seems as though they could have tuned that engine further, but I'm sure they had their reasons.

Now, I had assumed (because it was never specified otherwise) that the Alfieri had the same V6 as in the Ghibli and Quattroporte S Q4s, but just in a higher state of tune to make 520 hp...maybe not... The Ghibli, Quattroporte, upcoming Levante, and upcoming GranTurismo will take the current F154 Maserati V8 (already in the Quattroporte -- which is a lovely engine to drive and listen to) and tune it a bit to get it to 560 hp, but I guess the Alfieri will probably be using that F154 based 6 also in the QV and not the F160 like I had originally thought.

Also, what is the engine designation of the QV's V6? Jaredclce (talk) 15:40, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Jaredclce, actually it's not based on Pentastar engine but on that engine block. That's the huge difference and even the block is not identical and everything else is completely different than Pentastar. All ancillaries on F160 are very similar as on F154 and actually it has much more in common to F154 than to Pentastar but we can't deny engine block origins. F160 engine has two major drawbacks. One is it's length because of huge (I think it't more than 100 mm, 106 mm if I'm correct) bore spacing and the other one is open deck block design. Krief said that they cannot push F160 to more than 500 HP (actually 180 HP/liter which will gave 540 HP) because of long term reliability issue. So they started work on all new V6 based on F154 which is closed deck block. Result is this engine with less than 2.9 liter (if he wasn't laying and if it has 180 HP/liter it's not difficult to calculate capacity) which is first used here in Giulia but more adopters are coming. The other advantage of this engine compared to F160 is its length so they can more easily achieve 50:50 weight distribution. --FGA cheerleader (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Jaredclce, and another story about block origin, it's in Italian: http://www.alvolante.it/news/motore-v6-maserati-306067 . Off-course it's not desirable from marketing point of view to connect Maserati with Chrysler whether it's about engine or about platform origin. --FGA cheerleader (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Jaredclce I got the confirmation that engine inside Giulia has F154 designation or that it had it. Last two letters are unconfirmed but its not A-something, it's something from other side of alphabet. Maserati QP and Ghibli used Chrysler LX as a starting point. It's considerably different and use much more aluminium than LX. Alfa's Giorgio on the other hand is all new platform because LW was not a good starting point for smaller cars. Giorgio and it's derivations will be used for D and E segment cars, for SUVs, and all that on both side of Atlantic. --FGA cheerleader (talk) 19:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

FGA cheerleader I'm a bit confused when you speak of the LX and the Maserati... Because according to Harald J. Wester in an interview (much like the interview you referred to above re: F154-based Alfa V6), only the "electrical system, a portion on the platform where seats are hinged and some elements of the air conditioning" are shared with the 300 (LX platform). From an article (I think the same one): "Wester, a German engineer who also is Fiat-Chrysler's chief technical officer and Alfa Romeo's CEO, gets mad when he hears that the new Quattroporte is based on Chrysler underpinnings. ‘It is simply untrue,’ he says.” So, I mean, the end result has very little to do with the LX platform (except those components, and I know I said very little but it really is very little that affects the actual way the car is/drives/handles/etc, even if the electrical system is big and important). I guess though, if you look at the very start, supposedly, it had more but they changed a lot that made it completely different and leaving only those things in common -- but still.

Also, interesting on the engine. Jaredclce (talk) 01:34, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Jaredclce And Wester just said it correct. It's based on LX. They have same center part of the floor but rear and front subframe are changed, it has aluminium suspension (contrary to LX) which is changed with front double wishbone which has upper arm much higher compared to LX and also rear suspension is altered. Maserati used aluminium for doors, hood. Al that led to much less weight and much more sporty feel. What's important is that hard points are the same so basically it's the same platform and can be used with little plant upgrade for future FCA USA products.

In this story marketing is important. They're trying to avoid any public link of Alfa or Maserati products with North American siblings I there is connection than they will make it public only if Italians are donors. For example. Both Jeep and Dodge ( and AFAIK even Maserati for Alfieri) will use Alfa's Giorgio platform for its future products but it's important from marketing standpoint that Alfa will be first one to used it although Dodge and Jeep products will probably not use so much aluminium and carbon parts.

AFAIK, TT V6 Pentastar is in test phase right now. They are testing it in Europe and it will have more than 500 HP. They will launch car with it in 2 or 3 years time (AFAIK it will be less than 2 years) and that car will be under Dodge brand and based on Giorgio platform, possible next generation Charger.

FCA is in process of consolidation of its platform and engine offering. HEMI will be abandoned at least for car use. Ferrari's modular F154 V6/V8 is highly utilized. Pentastar V6 is highly profitable engine with its modified block even in Ferrari's F160. FIAT's TwinAir and FIRE are near of EOL with GSE (Global Small Engine) as substitute in I3 and small I4 form. Modular GME (Global Medium Engine) is around the corner and it will have premier in Alfa Romeo Giulia. It will substitute both Chrysler's WGE and FIAT's Pratola including 1.75 TBi. There is hint of all new Chrysler's TT V8, maybe even in modular form to bring cost down with smaller V6.

For platforms. FIAT's Small and Compact platforms were widened to accommodate 2.4 Tigeshark and they're called SUSW and CUSW. Renegade and future Compass are on SUSW same as current or future FIAT's counterparts but also more FIAT's are coming to SUSW. CUSW will be highly utilized by Chrysler for current 200, future E-minvans, E-CUV, D-SUV, next generation 300 and possible for future 100. Dodge will almost completely go to Giorgio with maybe some Maserati's derived LX exceptions. Same goes for Jeep for next gen Cherokee and anything above it. --FGA cheerleader (talk) 10:50, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

FGA cheerleader Interesting on the engines. As far as the LX and Quattroporte, yeah, but I mean they basically significantly changed everything of any importance except for that portion where the seats are hinged, AC, and electrical systems (as he said), and as you said, the changed items include: front and rear subframe, suspension, more use of aluminum, etc. I mean these things are really important to the car, and big, big components of the car/its design. Plus the engine, exhaust systems, steering, etc (even bigger but obviously very different than LX). So while it might have been based originally, so much of it changed that it evolved basically into something very different and new (they even said that when they said they were going to use it as a new FCA platform, but then decided to go with the Alfa's (or maybe they're still using that too)). It is, indeed, significantly different, making it a very different (and very Italian) car...so basically a Maserati. Jaredclce (talk) 15:55, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, not to mention the All-Wheel Drive system is all new, along with most other parts of the drivetrain (differential, etc). The tranny is the same, but everyone uses that ZF-8 speed. Jaredclce (talk) 16:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Jaredclce They just announced official numbers for bore and stroke of F154 V6 in Giulia. It's 86.5 mm bore with 82 mm stroke. Basically same as engine in California T. Do you have any intention of updating F154 article and maybe creating F160 article? --FGA cheerleader (talk) 09:47, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Hey all, I created the Ferrari F160 engine page. Please feel free to add to it! 20:30, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

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