Talk:Face of Boe

Please discuss the merge below at the end of the page and don't just write in here on top of everything!

Change name

It seems to me that the correct spelling would be 'The Face of Beau' given Jack's reference to the nickname at the Time Agency, no?

No, he is from the Boeshane Peninsula and therefore got the name the "Face of Boe"(shane).

According to IMDB it is spelt Bo-Shang peninsula, but I can't find a BBC link that backs this up. IMDB Face of Bo quote Eating cake (talk) 18:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Telepathic

Just watched New Earth and the Face spoke with the Doctor and Rose by telepathy. He also told the Doctor they would meet again, so it looks like keeping this as a separate article was correct. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 19:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Secret

Does anyone else think "You are not alone" might be a likely candidate for the Face's big secret? In the Doctor Who 2006 Annual, the piece on the Doctor by RTD said that on a distant planet there was a stone, with carvings of a mass destruction, and one lone survivor walking away. Below this are the words, "you are not alone". This could of course refer to the Dalek, but it's always possible it means that another Time Lord survived. Let's just hope it's Romana and not the Rani, eh? --Codenamecuckoo 08:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The four words might be "I am your father"! ;) Tanru 14:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is now speculation chat and not about the Face of Boe page, but it might be worth remembering that the Face will reveal his secret to one of his own kind. This either means that the Face is himself a Time Lord, or that it won't be the Doctor to whom he reveals his secret, even though the Doctor will be present....or it could mean that the Doctor isn't a Time Lord but a big stone face! DavidFarmbrough 08:01, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Or that "his own kind" doesn't refer to species, but to being the last survivor of a long-dead race (which was how I read it)... —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The Face being a timelord is quite a possibility - think about what he said in response to being asked about him living for millions of years. As a timelord he could have travelled across those millions of years, without being millions of years old. Very interesting stuff. David 19:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems unlikely to me, not least because of the RTD-written bit in the book Monsters and Villains, which gives more backstory about the Face, and his status as the last of Boekind. Plus, what exactly would be involved in a Gallifreyan (basically humanoid, give or take the extra heart and respiratory bypass system) transforming into a giant head with dreadlocks? I shudder to imagine. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

'According to the show's producer (Russell T. Davies) when this time comes the Face will pass on the four words that make up the secret to the Doctor, and that it will be "fantastic".' -- Crap. Any time RTD describes something as "it will be fantastic" it ends up being total garbage. Now I'm dreading it. Ravenswood 17:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Well whether it turns out to be 'fantastic' or 'garbage', this wikipedia entry suggests we will find out in the next series: "In an interview in DWM #374 Davies confirmed that the Face would say his message in season three, and that this was connected to the season finale." Which is good to hear because I was worried that it would end up being left as late as possible to build up suspense and then become the victim of the series somehow being cancelled so we never found out... At least this way we know we'll hear it, even if it turns out to be rubbish. I think I'll try and remain optimistic for now though... How about "I'm a little teapot"? :P Aetyr 00:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Or 'How Are You Gentlemen?'

--lazyguy 19:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

All things considered, I'd rather have had, "I can has cheezburger?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.167.136.139 (talk) 01:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Category: Fictional Prophets

Apart from my astonishment that any such category exists, is the Face really a prophet? All he has been seen to prophesy is that he and the Doctor will meet again when he will reveal his secret. That's a one-off, isn't it? And too specific and personal to qualify him as a 'prophet'? DavidFarmbrough 07:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's a bit of a reach. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Then again, we only see Mr Boe for a short time out of the millions of years of his widely travelled life - Who know what other prophecies he's stated ??

193.243.227.1 (talk) 12:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Living TARDIS?

Well there's speculation that this head is a Time Lord.. but after he "teleported" away suddenly at the end of New Earth, perhaps he didn't teleport at all, but travelled to another time? Maybe he's a living TARDIS (Ala Compassion)? This could help explain some of the confusion about his age too.. Anyway, just a random thought. :P Rehevkor 13:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Citation, or something

The paragraph that begins "We are told" is very mysterious. What is the source of the statements made in this section? Also, this paragraph is written in the first person, instead of third. Ravenswood 17:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Expansion on "You are not alone"

If we put together the facts that:

- The Doctor Who Annual 2006 mentions the phrase "You are not alone" in relation to the timewar. - RTD says that TFOB will say 4 words. - Those 4 words relate to the third series finalé. - And finally the rumours of The Master being in the third series finalé..

Does this warrant a sub-category mentioning the theories about "You are not alone" and what this could mean in relation to the finalé as well as The Master? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gothicfrog (talk • contribs) 23:04, March 11, 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't think there's any way to do that without veering into original research. If you can find any of this speculation in a reliable source (such as Doctor Who Magazine or SFX), then we could include it with proper attribution, but otherwise we can't put it in.

The good news is that we won't have long to wait before we see the Face again, and presumably hear those four words, at which point we won't need to speculate. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Well now its definite.

Doesn't Susan Foreman, the First Doctors granddaughter, marry a Human after the Dalek Invasion of Earth. If she had died, but had had a child, that child would not have been a full-blooded Time Lord, and so the Doctor may not fell him (his great-grandchild), and so may not have been killed in the Time war. Furthermore, Susan herself may have been isolated from the war (she was left with no TARDIS), and so survived. Without a TARDIS and its telepathic circuits, she could be undetectable to teh Doctor, and so she or her descendants could be what the FOB meant by "you are not alone" adn "you are the last of your kind". Possibly, she is herself brought before the Galiffrey council, and given a choice similar to that of Elrond in the Lord of the Rings, to choose to be human or Time Lord, and her children also given that choice (as Arwen was).

Which is right?

The line which says "After hearing the message, The Doctor tells Martha that The Face of Boe was wrong, although it has not yet been revealed which of the two is correct" needs editing I think as apparently in the Confidential episode after Gridlock it was said (I think by Russel T but I'm going on second-hand information here) that both were right, and that the secret's not as simple as it sounds. Someone who's seen the Confidential episode may be able to write this in officially, as I'm still downloading it to watch myself. Aetyr 10:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Bad link

At the end of the article, in the see also part there is a “The Face of Boe's "Lonely God" prophecy” link, but the page it leads to doesn't have anything on the subject

83.15.56.98 19:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Jack Harkness merge

I don't think that the articles should be merged as The Face of Boe is totally independent from Jack despite being him in the future. I would however add a link to the page to the Jack Harkness article. NightLord 18:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Might be Jack in the future. Definitely not merge. Daibhid C 18:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Russell T Davies did say that the Face of Boe would make a very important announcement in the last episode, this must be it? He just made the announcement when he was younger. ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 19:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Are there any pre-cursors to this in other articles like this? Is there an example of where a character has had two aliases before? If not there should probably a bold sentence in both the articles lead-ins referring to the 'other' character. ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 19:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

In wikipedia, there already a discussion about merging two characters of a popular franchise Star Wars took place. See Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader. Userpd (talk) 11:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Clark Kent and Superman have separate articles, which sets a bit of a precedent. We also have nowhere near enough information yet on the subject, so I'd suggest keeping these two separate. Zytch 19:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe the episode has only just finished and people are already discussing whether to merge the two. Whoever thought of merging them is an idiot.

I am not an idiot LizzieHarrison 19:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest NOT merging. There is no conclusive evidence that Jack is the Face of Boe. Just a coincidence.

No merge. LuciferMorgan 19:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Dont merge that would suck big time! I didn't see the Face of Boe flirting with his nurse so he couldnt be 100% Captain Jack :}

• Don't merge. Its not been confirmed and anyway they are as separate as the ten Doctors.--GwydionM 19:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Definitely merge. It's been confirmed they are one and the same. To keep it separate would be equivalent to keeping John Simm's Master separate from Delgado and Ainsley's. The Tribe of Gum 19:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, if you have evidence that they're are confirmed to be the same person, link it.

Merge. They are the same character, even if the Doctor doesn't admit it. Will ^(talk) 19:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't merge as per Zytch. MikeHobday 19:22, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Some people are using words "Are" and "Confirmed" but have no evidence. To those people, Santa exists. 8-)

RTD has stated definitively that Jack is the Face of Boe, and John Barrowman has very very very strongly implied it. I'd hardly say that equals no evidence. It's a bit rude to make that comparison. Although certainly the articles shouldn't be merged as the characters are separate.

If I may, I say Don't merge, as the connection between Jack and Boe is only implied, not explicitly stated. If a later series explicitly states that Jack is Boe , then it might be a worthwile venture. Also, on the same basis, I'd suggest that any references that state this as fact are removed, or made to sound like a suggestion.

I'm very annoyed that someone has edited the Face of Boe page stating fact that it's true. It's only implied in the episode, not confirmed. I agree with above comment, I suggest removing any factual statement on the page and make it say implied. As a result, John Barrowman should be removed from the portrayal list. (Sam3773 19:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC))

• Don't merge. While it's all but confirmed they're the same, I'd go with the Clark Kent/Superman precedent here. Same person different characters. - Mgm|^(talk) 19:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - it's not been confirmed, merely mooted as a suggestion. In the meantime, the FoB is a character in his own right, distnct from Jack. mattbuck 19:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge. As MacGyverMagic says, it's the same person, but different characters. Kelvingreen 19:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Don’t merge – perhaps we should wait until one of the shows explains more (e.g. how does the man who can never die, actually die?) If we do merge and it turns out that what Jack said was just a joke/coincidence, then we would have to go through the trouble of splitting them all over again. Also, if we do merge then it would have to be tagged with a warning about the info potentially being incorrect. yettie0711 20:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't merge - per Clark/Superman precedent. Will ^(talk) 20:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge It's implied not stated for certain (and the Doctor is sceptical); it's also a spoiler to merge (it's only 90 minutes since this was first broadcast - we should give consideration for international viewers) and the characters are portrayed as distinctive and are separate in the narrative at the time of their appearances. We have separate articles for each Doctor as well as for the Valeyard. And looking at other fictional universes both Megatron/Galvatron and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader have separate pages when there's a much stronger case for single articles. Timrollpickering 20:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah, it's a pretty silly suggestion. I'd rather suggest contracting the whole thing into 3 paragraphs, putting it under List of Doctor Who monsters and aliens#Face of Boe and then linking to that where necessary from the Jack, Master and episode articles.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 20:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Honestly seeing that both Jack and Boe are the same race and the link between the two is implied stongly this should be mentioned but not set in stone because normally Russell T Davies hints at something it is true but its such a dodgy connection to get wrong no merging should be formed. Boe is defiantely not a Dr Who monster though and should rightly have his own page because he is an important character.

Dont merge, the actual characters are completely different, and it is as though they become seperate people.

• Don't Merge I don't like the suggestions to merge with Jack Harkness or List of Doctor Who monsters and aliens. Not unless a way of merging them is found without the loss of information that usually happens. You'll probably end up with about one paragraph on the Face of Boe with almost all of the infomation on the article lost. So much information is lost this way on Wikipedia, It's quite sad. Danjewell 22:15, 30 June 2007 (GMT)

• Merge This needs to be merger with the List. The Face of Boe has only a few lines ever and even though his cryptic messages play a very important role in the setting up of entire seasons arc's, it is not enough for its own article.

• Don't Merge - absolutely no confirmation that Jack and the Face are one and the same. --Tailkinker 22:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge even if they are the same being, they're not the same character (Superman/Clark kent precedent), and as spoilers go, it would be akin to making planet of the apes redirect to earth. 82.8.49.205 22:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge as per Timrollpickering. -Skulking

• Don't merge Even if they are absolutely and conclusively the same character in the past and future, they are still very different and distinct elements of the Doctor Who Universe. Compare the current separate entries for First Doctor, Second Doctor, etc. Rob T Firefly 02:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge I enjoy following the links. Besides it will take some time for the series to make it to the states. While I took in an early peak, to avoid just this sort of spoiler, many state side Doctor Who fans would like to wait and watch events unfold in the proper course of time. SheepDoll 03:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge - Huge spoiler for people; just plain wrong. Kether83 07:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge - Along with the ClarkKent/Superman precedent, there is a likely potential that the character could be encountered by the doctor in later episodes as a major character.

• Don't merge - Just don't. Not because it's stateside or not, but just don't. I don't agree with citing the Face of Boe as human either. In what way is he human in the form we know him? The Face of Boe is the Face of Boe, and even though he may have mutated from Captain Jack, he is NOT HUMAN.George Adam Horváth 10:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge - Unless it's clear part of the primary source it should not be counted as canon. A random line thrown in is not enough and it doesn't matter what RTD said in the podcast as he'd still change his mind at the drop of a hat if the plot demanded it. Plus, we don't merge all the Doctors into one article either. Both Jack's and Boe's articles already are very long. Little-quiqueg 10:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Totally don't merge! Starfighter Pilot 14:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge Two separate characters. Clark Kent & Superman. Doctor 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc... Maybe they are the same person, but there's a difference. I agree with Little-quiqueg completely. MadScientistMatt 15:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't merge. If Jack is a fixed point in space and time how could he ever change? We shouldn't consider this fact until it is on screen, no matter what Russell says. (Wordforge 16:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC))

Don't merge. Even if (I say IF) they are the same person physically they are completely different characters so it isn't right to merge them into the same article. Besides, they have both done different things that weren't done by each other or aided by each other so should have their own pages to acknowledge this so that people don't get confused with things being done by the two different people. It hasn't actually been confirmed to my knowledge anyway so how can people be so sure about merging the two articles being the right thing?

• I removed the merge suggestion from the article as consensus here and in Jack Harkness seems to be that they should not be merged. mattbuck 22:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't Merge Please remember that "Captain Jack Harkness" isn't actually Captain Jack Harkness. The character we know as Captain Jack took the name from another person. That being said, it is possible that being the "Face of Boe" could have been a nickname. It is possible that in the 51st century, people in "Jack's" hometown knew about the ~actual~ Face of Boe and used this as a nickname for him. In short, just because your nickname is Scarface, doesn't mean you're Al Capone. It is very possible that "Jack" is the actual Face of Boe, but without ABSOLUTE proof, I think merging these articles would be premature. Besides, if "Jack" and "Boe" are the same being, it does not mean that they are the same character. I would also like to agree with the person who cited "no-spoiling" as a reason not to merge the articles. I would be disappointed to have known that from day one watching the new Doctor Who. erikeltic 23:11, 1 July 2007

Don't Merge. While I fully believe that Jack Harkness, one day, becomes The Face of Boe, I oppose merging, at least for now. If all is revealed by the end of Torchwood, perhaps. Someone else said that Clark Kent and Superman each have their own article. Peter Parker and Bruce Wayne do not, however, for their alter egos Spider-Man and Batman, respectively, for what that's worth. Personally, I don't think it's worth much at all, because Clark Kent and Superman being the same person is an integral part of the Superman franchise. A better justification I have found is Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader. While not evil, The Face of Boe is a "monster" that Jack Harkness "becomes" like Anakin becomes Vader. It's still important to keep them separate, especially as both (in both franchises) are iconic characters. NathanJ1979 (talk) 06:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't Merge. By Harkness' timeline at the end of "The End of the Earth", he had to have heard of the Face of Boe before. My suspicion is that, given his earlier nickname in conjunction with his newfound immortality, he was perhaps amused by the idea that he might be the Face of Boe - but in a universe absurd to the degree in which little lipid-based aliens can cutely swarm a flying saucer, and in which telling rampaging gas-masked zombies to "Go to your room!" works astonishingly well, this doesn't imply anything except that the writers have a bizarre and wonderful sense of humor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.94.244 (talk) 03:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

bit at the end of the article

"Captain Jack has been seen on the show to die and come back to life, it is therefore possible that the Face of Boe came back to life soon after the Doctor left, and could still have been alive around the time of the events of Utopia, which could explain the possible connections between Yana and the Face of Boe" <<< This doesn't make much sense? Wouldn't it be simpler to assume that if the Face of Boe is Captain Jack, then he knew about Yana because he had been there- as captain jack ? it is time travel. Novium 19:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

True that. The Face is already aware that the Doctor is "not alone" in the year 5 billion-and-whatever, but "Yana" doesn't come into existence until the end of the universe. It would seem to me that the Face's being Jack is intended to serve as an explanation, then, for how the Face can know about Yana when trillions of years separate these two events. - Chris McFeely 19:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, I'd say Occam's Razor goes here. Why bother with a complicated time travel theory if you can reach the same result with out it? - Mgm|^(talk) 19:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

RTD said, after The Face's "death", that his story wasn't done. Seems to be an odd thing to say if Jack being The Face was just a joke, doesn't it? Let's apply some common sense before it becomes an edit war. Kelvingreen 19:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I hope that it is not the case, even if it ties up that one storyline, it's kind of unsatisfactory for everything else, considering all the references (mentioned in the article, at least) to boe-kind, etc.

We should remove the later conjecture in the article, as the connection between Jack and Boe is speculative only and there is no concrete proof. It should be mentioned of the possible connection, and we should remove the episode listings pending any new evidence --User:Lyinginbedmon 22:18 30/06/2007

Clean Up?

Does anyone else think this article could do with a clean up? It seems that nearly every paragraph has been added after every appearance of the Face of Boe. (e.g. it king of goes; this happened and then this happened and then this happened (if you know what I mean)). Also some of the paragraphs need a little updating. (e.g. in paragraph 8 there is a line that says, “…perhaps implying that The Doctor is not the last surviving Time Lord”. We know he’s not the last surviving Time Lord because of the Master (although he could be now). Also I think that a few headings would help this article greatly. yettie0711 20:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

do merge

it is obvious that the face is jack, come on its obvious. hears my reason: Jack, realising that only he, Martha and the Doctor know about the master hiding at the universes end and the YANA acronym, used his seeming immortality to give the message about the masters existance to the Doctor 5 billion years into the future, but because he still aged at a slow rate, he had changed massively. using the name: Face of Boe because he told the Doctor about it being his nick name as a child, ensured that the Doctor (the doctor at the end of 'last of the timelords') would realise that the face of boe was actually who Jack would become. this theory also provides an alternative reason to why rose would have given jack immortality (beyond the reason the doctor gave, which as that rose couldnt control his resurection);so that he would live long enough so he could give the doctor the message that would result in the events of the series 3 finale, and also would result in jack learning the information that he would give to the doctor in the future, so that his past self would also learn the information to give to the doctor aswell, thus creating an Ontological paradox, in the sense that he gets his information from his future self through the doctor. this is more likely than rose simply not having enough control to stop jack constantly resurrecting, as she was able to see all of time and would have realised that she, not only created badwolf, but also the face of boe, and would have set into motion the events that created him aswell as those that created badwolf. plus the fact that the name face of boe is so rare it has to be him, oh and when he says he is the last of his species, he isnt lying because all the humans of the boe penisala are dead, making him the last one.

1. Sign your posts. 2. Read a little further up the page. 3. Although they may be the same BEING, they are different CHARACTERS (c.f. Superman and Clark Kent). 59.100.13.147 04:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Podcast - Last of the Time Lords

RTD comfirms Jack is the Face of Boe. Link is given in the Origins section of the article 86.4.237.219 04:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I've listened to the podcast, but it's a bit of a jumble at that point. What quote are you referring to?--Trystan 06:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The Quote is at about 40 minutes or around that. They are talking about Barrowman and RTD says something like "Despite writing it I believe it is a theory" before laughing when the female participant of the Podcast says something along the lines of "Whatever, Captain Jack is the Face of Boe". They also say that Barrowman is loving being the Face of Boe.User:86.4.237.219

I think it's very misleading to claim that Russell T. Davies confirms Jack to be the Face of Boe based on that exchange. He says "I am of the school that says it's a theory,", and then Executive Producer Julie Gardner says "No, stop backpedaling, he is the Face of Boe." If anything, that introduces more doubt than on the surface of the show in RTD's mind. The quote from the Producer is actually "He loves saying he's the Face of Boe."--Trystan 16:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

And I think that to claim from the tone when he says it, in addition to the laughter, also the mention of the change in the Script for Gridlock to include Old Friend. They are all talking about the two Characters as if they are the same, so to suggest that I am misrepresenting the Podcast is wrong, you are misrepresenting it

And to quote something else: "it's unarguable that the theory is being put forward by the writers, and indeed, the show's writer explicitly states in the podcast he is putting forward that theory". Well that is completely wrong, they are not putting the theory forward at all, they are mentioning it in a joking manner - it is like suggesting that say jokes about racism are racist or something along those lines. User:86.4.237.219

None of this hair-splitting really matters when it comes to Wikipedia. We are here to report the facts as seen in verifiable sources. In matters of fictional TV characters, we are compelled to cite episodes of the show as our main source. Whatever the crew's intent may be doesn't make a difference. This is an encyclopedia, and we are here to report the solid facts. In this case, the solid facts include the possibility that Jack is Boe, but not a confirmation of this idea. As such, that's really as far as we can take the articles in question at this point. Please try to remember why we're all here. Rob T Firefly 00:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge Talk

Should this be merged into List of Doctor Who monsters? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 04:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It should certainly be merged somewhere, but I'm not sure that's the proper place. List of Doctor Who villains doesn't seem right either. Huh.--Sean|Black 04:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Now that monsters are at the more neutral List of Doctor Who aliens, should the Face be merged into that list? Or does his return in the second series mean that he merits a page of his own? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd say it's long enough not to be a stub, and will be added to when he shows up again. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 07:17, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I think The Face Of Boe might turn out to be very important - we are constantly being reminded of him in Series 1, so he should have his own page. DavidFarmbrough 09:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Just found out that the face of boe may be Captain Jack Harkness God0fgod 21:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

There should be no merger, the Face of Boe is a major character and has his own sub-plot throughout the first three seasons (maybe more?). 75.89.36.161 22:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, he is important enough to have his own page. Appearing over all three seasons and being referenced many times means he is notable enough Tphi 02:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I know it's been confirmed by RTD, but they're still so different that I reakon the articles should remain different but have heavy reporting on the article that they ARE the same character.

I can understand the urge to want to merge this article with Captain Jack Harkness, but to simply put it in the List of Doctor Who Aliens, is simply mind boggling. One he is a fairly main character, or at least an important one. Two, he is Jack, but I agree that the Superman/Clark Kent precedent wins here. In my opinion putting something into a list article is akin to just deleting the article. I say we just keep it as is. mpbx 05:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That would be the age-old question whether utterances even by the creator in secondary sources (such as podcasts and the Confidentials) can be counted as canon. Creators of other shows have said things in interviews and companions and then ended up doing something else in the original source on the long run. So, unless it becomes clearer on the show, more than just one line thrown in, I don't think merging this with the Jack Harkness article would be of merit. It is being mentioned in Jack's article, so I think that is enough. We're not merging all articles of all the Doctors either. It would just get too long. Little-quiqueg 10:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally i think we should just merge the articles and have the Face of Boe's at the bottom of Jack's page and just have this page redirect there. Unfortunately we also dont know Jack's real name - its not Captain Jack Harkness, nor is it The Face of Boe as thats a nickname (of his young human time agent form) and the name of his 5 billion year old mutated face. S-m-r-t 10:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I think there's a very important reason for not wanting to merge the Jack Harkness and Face of Boe articles: spoilers. If someone searches for "Face of Boe" and it automatically redirects to "Jack Harkness" (or vice versa), the person doing the searching will know something is up. Personally, I'd rather preserve that awesome twist for someone who doesn't already know the alleged truth for an initial viewing of "Last of the Time Lords". WordsSayNothing 13:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I really think we need more proof that they are one and the same. I think it would be best to say something like "It has been suggested that Jack and the Face of Boe are indeed the same but insufficient evidence has been given." They (the show's producers) tend to leave things very subtle - are the (Dr Who universe's) British Royal Family werewolves? Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know. A statement from Jack about that could really mean anything. So I think we should wait until there's been some sort of confirmation in the next few episodes. IF there is confirmation. It could very well just be a "gotcha" for us all to ponder forever. Where's the Master? Who's got the ring? Etc. I love the mind games they make us play. Remember, RTD's comments aren't really considered canon. Only what happens on screen is. Respectfully, MadScientistMatt 15:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge. I'm pretty sure I remember Jack being told that Rose's vortex antics had frozen him in time so that he'd never age or die - or am I imagining it? Verisimilus T 15:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge - we definitely shouldn't merge into Jack Harkness, due to the Clark kent/Superman argument: they're the same person but different characters. As for merge into List of Aliens, again, I disagree - the FoB is important enough to warrant his own article IMO, and besides, that list is big enough already. mattbuck 15:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge Plenty of content here, more likely to develop. Until(1 == 2) 15:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• I removed the merge suggestion from the article as consensus here and in Jack Harkness seems to be that they should not be merged. mattbuck 17:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The origins of the Face of Boe are largely unclear.

This sentence is no longer true and should be replaced.

I understand the initial reaction not to merge this page with the Jack Harness page, but also believe that, in time, this will need to be reconsidered. Especially in the light of what a combined page would look like, which would be somewhat different to what we have now, which is two pages in chronological order as the Doctor's timeline would see them. It would be far more interesting to put them in the order Jack/Face of Boe came across them.

Incidentally, we also ought to add the in the Face of Boe's third appearance, the phrase "old friend" was deliberately, and retrospectively, added by RTD precisely because the Face (being Jack) would necessarily be friendlier to the Doctor than he would have been to someone he had only met fleetingly twice (or is it thrice?) before. The Tribe of Gum 16:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Five billion years old?

The articles says "that Jack ages into the Face of Boe during his roughly five billion years of life." Yet since the Face of Boe was around during the year 200 000, either Jack evolved into the face in that relatively short span of time, or time travel is involved, and Jack's life isn't limited to 5 billion years.--Trystan 17:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I remember part of the conversation in Utopia [I think] where the Doctor and Jack are talking about Jack possibly still being alive, and the Jack in the episode going to look for the non-episode jack.

That would infer the Doctor and Jack not expecting him to die in the near future, which would seem to contradict the death of Mr Boe.

193.243.227.1 (talk) 13:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

You're assuming that they both know that he is the Face of Boe. This happened before Jack's revelation to The Doctor in Last of the Time Lords, and of course 'our' Jack doesn't yet know of his evolution into the Face of Boe. Their discussion about Jack not dying has no relevance to the Face of Boe in the sense that you're saying. DestradoZero 20:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I seem to remember something in New Earth where they mentioned that FoB had lived a number of times the span of the Universe - obviously, this requires time travel. This isn't surprising if the FoB is Harkness - but then, for any creature that's lived the span of the universe less than once (long enough for the humans to develop time travel and have an agency with Jack in it), it's not really surprising in any respect.

i have just rewatched New Earth and the Dr states the legend that the Face of Bo is Millions of years old not Billions so have edited the page to say that at the point —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.29.4 (talk) 18:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Though, something that bothers me: Humans developed time travel, and had the Time Agency - yet were unable or unwilling to use it to escape the heat death of the universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.94.244 (talk) 03:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Where were they supposed to go...? -- Syzygy (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Need a photo of Jack

See the two side-by-side to judge if they could be the same. To my eyes it seems plausible.--GwydionM 17:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think so somehow. I'm pretty certain the Face of Boe was conceived before the whole Master storyline was thought of. mattbuck 17:33, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I get what he's saying though, I mean, the whole eyes and nose do have a slight resemblence :p Jasca Ducato 19:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Julie Gardner

It says that Gardner wanted to hear more, but then leaves us hanging! That sounds like a teaser or something, and not particularly encyclopedia like

Hm, perhaps that could be clarified a bit. She didn't want to hear more, she wanted RTD to "stop backpedaling" and commit to the development.

Actually, the whole podcast bit is rather inconclusive, and could be removed entirely. It doesn't really add anything.--Trystan 05:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

One of the many reasons why I'm thoroughly displeased with Mr. Davies on a personal level. Do something and COMMIT to it, dang it! DestradoZero 20:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DestradoTensai (talk • contribs)

Jack Harkness - human?

Didn't Jack describe himself as mostly human, rather than human? TharkunColl 11:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of. Of which episode are you thinking? Mark H Wilkinson 16:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Toclafane

The so-called "Toclafane" are what humans become - disembodied heads in an artificial container. This is also what the Face of Boe is. And, incidentally, where does the term "Boekind" come from? Was it said onscreen? TharkunColl 15:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe it's from the DW Aliens and Monsters Companion book, or whatever that thing was called. mattbuck 15:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Then it is not canonical, and Jack's statement onscreen overrides it. TharkunColl 15:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope, because it is a canonical source - was written by RTD iirc. mattbuck 16:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

It's also mentioned in New Earth.--Codenamecuckoo 16:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Quote from Novice Hame: "The rest of Boekind became extinct, long ago. He's the only one left." Mark H Wilkinson 18:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

the book isn't canocial regardles of its author - i hardly think the forrest aliens from series 1 can still be though of as the only aliens to witness the time war :p

Crucial details

The fact that the Face of Boe is Jack Harkness is a crucial character detail that must go in the first paragraph, just like the separate articles on each regeneration of the Doctor state who he is up front. And whilst I don't propose a merger (the Doctor, after all, has at least 10 different articles), it is worth pointing out that the Master only has one article, despite having had a number of different regenerations. The Doctor also has an "overview" article of the character as a whole.

For those who would like to think that Jack's words should not be taken at face value I would say that this attitude is mere POV. The words were very clear, and their meaning was obvious. This is the state of affairs right now in the Doctor Who universe, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous. TharkunColl 18:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

A couple of lines at the end of an episode which are open to more than one interpretation do not provide us with the mandate to assert a connection or lack thereof between these characters. WP:NPOV applies -- we need merely include the verifiable facts of Jack's claimed nickname and observations made in the commentary. Mark H Wilkinson 18:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how Jack saying that he is known in his homeplace as "the Face of Boe" is open to more than one interpretation. Nor is RTD saying in the podcast that, in the light of deciding upon this reveal, he went back to the Gridlock script and changed it so the Face of Boe referred to the Doctor as "old friend". As TharkunColl notes, it is a key detail that should be referred to upfront. The Tribe of Gum 18:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

It's open to interpretation because all we know is that they share a name. According to the writer, it's meant to be a theory; it's not uncommon for writers to deliberately leave a bit of ambiguity to tease the audience..--Trystan 23:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't understand this. The dialogue at the end of the last episode was plain. Why try to explain it away? TharkunColl 23:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

We don't try to explain it in any direction. That's the point. We present the facts in a neutral fashion and allow the readers to make up their own minds. Some will think Jack and FoB are the same being, some will think they're not, and some won't give much of a damn either way. And we, as editors, can remain shining champions of WP:NPOV. Mark H Wilkinson 23:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The dialogue was plainly suggesting that Jack was the Face of Boe. Whether such a suggestion is "true" or not is not a meaningful question when dealing with a fictional work, and thus explanation doesn't come into it.--Trystan 23:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The background for the Face of Boe seems to deliberately centre around questionable anecdotes, hearsay and folklore, statements that the characters themselves ridicule as they relate them, essentially, because he's so old no one actually knows the truth. Jack's statements add to the ball of anecdotal evidence because nowhere does he say "over several billion years I mutated into a giant head in a jar". It's clearly meant as a sensible, yet still suitably mysterious ending to the subject rather than an explicitly canonical explanation. MrAngy 21:04, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

And the only reason why this is the way it is, is because Mr. Davies (unlike most other creators that I've followed...Cuse and Lindelof from Lost and Kishimoto of Naruto fame/infamy being two examples) isn't willing to commit to something he has written. DestradoZero 20:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DestradoTensai (talk • contribs)

He is also called "Captain Jack". Perhaps, purely based on this nickname, we should link him to Captain Jack and Captain Jack. Of all people, you would think Dr. Who fans would be open to the possibility that, through all of time and all of space, one being's name would become another being's nickname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.136.21 (talk) 00:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Jack Harkness and the Face of Boe

If i am right in my thinking, then two 'copies' of the same person cannot exist at the same time in the Doctor who stories. If so this means that Jack can not possibly be the face of boe because the face is mentioned in 'Bad Wolf', so is alive at the time, at the same time that Jack is there. Unless of course if the future jack is the face of boe then the face would be a 'fact', and this may override the implications of having two copies of the same being at the same time.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.233.217 (talk • contribs)

No it's not true. See, for example, Father's Day. The Tribe of Gum 19:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Jack "ages" into the Face of Boe, but during the episode Bad Wolf, the Doctor and Rose don't know Jack is Boe. So no paradox exists. Jasca Ducato 20:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Nothing prevents them existing at the same time, they just shouldn't meet. Jack was a time traveller and frequently returned to the same time..that's how his scams worked when he was a conman. The Doctor has frequently existed in several places at the same time, particularly on earth. Gwinva 08:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I would argue they even could meet if the shows writers ever wanted them too without too much of a leap of logic... after all the Doctor makes it clear to Jack in no uncertain terms he is an absolute, one of a kind, unrepeatable and totally unique, abnormality of the normal ways of the space/time of the universe. The whole point of Jack is that normal rules don't apply to him after Roses intervention. He probably could meet himself and not create a paradox (since the only possible paradox would be if he as the FAce of Boe killed Jack, and the Face of Boe clearly would be smart enough to know not to do that).

I suspect that in "Bad Wolf" mode, Rose was unable to commit paradox - the past would bend to meet the future she commanded. Otherwise, the "Bad Wolf" marks wouldn't have shown up everywhere. With classical time travel, the "Bad Wolf" marks are a paradox. Though, it could also be that the Tardis' temporal energy IS a paradox, contained in a vortex, and its instability tapped whenever the TARDIS needs moved. Anyway, Rose was able to commit one paradox with the TARDIS' energy in her; there's no reason she couldn't commit two.

Of course, thinking about this all again, the Doctor meets himself in The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors - and the Doctor and the Watcher meet in Logopolis prior to the Fourth Doctor's regeneration. The Tribe of Gum 20:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The Doctor only gets to meet himself, because of manipulation of the time/space continuim by the Time Lords.

193.243.227.1 (talk) 13:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe the Face of Boe (Jack) dies because in Gridlock, he uses all his energy to rescue the people stuck. Unlike Jack who just has simple deaths like being shot etc.

Not to mention Jack "died" for an extended period in the season finale of Torchwood, draining his energy to repel Abadon. Bo had to drain his energies to sustain a population for years, costing him his life when he ceased. Dr.R.K.Z

Oh come on ... Jack must have heard about the Face of Boe - he was pulling the Doctor's leg, surely ... if we started making encylopedaic changes for every joke on a TV show .... Nfitz 00:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I still think they may recant the Face of Boe heresy, and admit it was all a massive joke on the fans. On the other hand some gags are better played straight-faced until the end. I can well imagine RTD, should he ever find time in his busy life, reading discussions on this talk page and giggling like a naughty schoolboy at the knots we're tying ourselves into over his bit of mischief. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 13:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Jack can be the Face of Boe. His existence was locked into place, it became a 'fact', by Rose at the end of "Parting of the Ways". My interpretation is that when his existence became fact it means he'll stay the same, aside from the fact he can continue to learn and such, for the rest of his existence which will be forever since he can't die. Sure he can stay dead for a while if he gives up a huge load of energy like with Abaddon, but when he comes back he's still the same. --The Night Walker 15:14, 12 June 2008 (GMT +10).

"Oh come on ... Jack must have heard about the Face of Boe - he was pulling the Doctor's leg, surely ... if we started making encylopedaic changes for every joke on a TV show .... Nfitz 00:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

" He did, martha and the doctor spoke about "The face of Boe" infront of jack in utopia. Though hearing this might be the reason he asked about his aging.

"If i am right in my thinking, then two 'copies' of the same person cannot exist at the same time in the Doctor who stories"

Except, if Torchwood is Who-cannon, Jack mentioned he froze himself in the 1901 to be unfrozen in the 21st century (Exit Wounds (Torchwood)), so as not to accidentally bump into himself, we know he was around during world war 2 (The Empty Child The Doctor Dances).68.89.187.115 (talk) 05:13, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Both pregnant

Anyone wanna put that Jack and the Face have both apparently been pregnant before?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.211.217 (talk • contribs)

As a piece of trivia, it seems a little too random.--Trystan 18:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

But they're supposed to be the same character! That's an interesting link between them, I think

• I think it should go in. Its another link that connects the characters BethEnd 13:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was Boeshang?

It sounds more like Boeshang to me than Boeshane when Captain Jack talks. Has someone seen the episode in subtitles?

I watch everything with subtitles, and therefore, can confirm that it is indeed "Boeshane" rather than "Boeshang". John Barrowman, using his American accent, pronounces it a little oddly, is all.

Odetospot, 20:16, 31st July 2007

Spoiler warning?

I just want to know whether it's appropriate to add a spoiler tag to the second half of the history part, given that it contains spoilers for the end of series three, which has not aired in Australia, and spoilers for episodes after Face of Boe's last appearance in the show. I did think, given that I've seen Gridlock, that I'd be all right reading this article. Could there be a bit more of a warning - say, moving it to the next paragraph starting with 'It is revealed in 'Last of the Timelords - before mentioning that the 'not alone' referred to the Master?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Secondsilk (talk • contribs)

• I would support that, as the third series is just being aired in the US now. I did add spoiler tags earlier, but they were removed as redundant per WP:SPOIL. But I was concerned about a different spoiler, nothing about the Master.-- aBSuRDiST -^T ☺ ^C- 02:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

There doesn't not need to be a spoiler warning as it has been two years now since the episode was airred. If you are stupid enough to look up characters on wikipedia when you haven't seen all the episodes, thats your fault.194.81.189.20 (talk) 10:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Change 'Race' Listing in Infobox???

The infobox lists his race as "Boekind"; I propose changing it to "Boekind (Possibly Human)" for 2 reasons. 1- Jack's statement, which IMO is conclusive enough that he will become the face of Boe- it explains how he knows about the master etc. 2- The Face of Boe does look somewhat like the Toglafane (sp?), which were obviously human (admittedly in a strange form) as well. I would say that The Face of Boe is human, but I'm aware that some believe it isn't 100% confirmed yet, and the topic is certainly still open for discussion, hence the word "possibly". Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.99.2 (talk) 03:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

no that's speculation, all we know is that it was probably a joke made by Davies.--Lerdthenerd (talk) 12:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there really a debate?

We know The Face of Boe is a giant head which has "probably" lived for "billions of years" (though nobody really believes it) but we don't know what Boe is; like anything else it's a one-off name that comes back a time or two. Then we have Captain Jack Harkness, a human or humanoid, who though an accident with the TARDIS became a special kind of immortal. Later he is revealed to be Boekind specifically; that is his race, and in the Torchwood episode "Adam" we see Boekind and they're humans or humanoids, not disembodied heads. Also, in "Last of the Time Lords", Harkness tells the Tenth Doctor that he was called "The Face of Boe" back home. This is all canon, it's seen in the episodes. Over five billion years it is possible for a disembodied head of another race to somehow acquire the title, but we've seen alien weapon induced deformity (The Master uses it on the Tenth Doctor to age him, e.g.) so it is more likely that Harkness gets decapitated, and, being immortal, his head lives on and somehow grows into The Face of Boe as seen in Doctor Who. However unlikely, grotesque, and disturbing that may be, it is all we have, but it is still speculation at best. But again, that is speculation. I would suspect that by the end of the Torchwood series, we will have explored the past as well as the future of Harkness, as that seems to be the most prominent story arc yet. I am almost certain Torchwood will end with the two characters being reconciled or otherwise explained. NathanJ1979 (talk) 06:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Jack's people aren't called Boekind in Adam or in DW, he merely says he is from the Boeshane Peninsula. The counter argument runs that being from the 51st century and being a seasoned time traveller, that Jack, and the people of his time, could well be aware of the Face of Boe and his nickname may have in fact stemmed from a play on words with his name being similar to the first syllable of Boeshane. Also the face of Boe appeared on a screen in The Long Game set 200,000 years in the future, looking the same as he does 4.8 billion years later. I'm not saying either argument is 'correct', since being fictional characters neither interpretation would be true in any real sense of the word anyway, but both seem valid enough readings of the source material.Number36 (talk) 01:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Star-Ledger interview and the Captain Jack "joke"

Russell T. Davies gives a pretty extensive interview to Alan Seppinwall of the Star-Ledger in which he says of the Face of Boe:

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/06/russell_t_davies_talks_doctor.html

There was that moment where you revealed that Jack would eventually live so long that he'd become the Face of Boe. Was this something you planned all along with the character?

It wasn't exactly planned. I did spend a long time thinking about Jack's immortality, and one day it occured to me there was another immortal character on the show. It made me laugh. To be honest, on the screen, it's couched in terms that are not absolute gospel. There are these spin-off books and comic books, and every now and then I'll see a script for one where they say definitively that he's the Face of Boe, and I always stop those from being printed. I have my own personal theories, but the moment it became very true or very false, the joke dies.

So, he won't commit to it because it's funnier not to commit to it. Sounds reasonable.

This may be a useful source to clarify Davies' opinion on the subject. --TS 09:47, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Youtube video about Merge?

Just saw this - is this 'confirmation' that the Face of Boe and Jack Harkness are the same?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YDmF4cnA2I — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.233.229 (talk) 05:05, 13 April 2013 (UTC)