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Featured articleFabian Ware is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 11, 2020.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
July 26, 2019Good article nomineeListed
July 7, 2020Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

Untitled

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The article doesn't explain how he acquired the rank of Major General if he was never (apparently) in the Army ??? 91.106.250.22 (talk) 15:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gazette references

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This covers quite a lot of his honours and promotions, don't seem to have tracked down his intial commission on transfer to the army though. David Underdown (talk) 11:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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source

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From ONB "chairman of the National Education Union; an honorary associate of the Royal Institute of British Architects; and a director of the journal Nineteenth Century and After... His name is additionally commemorated in St George's Chapel in Westminster Abbey." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddie891 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Post-war work

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I feel that there are some omissions about Ware's post-war work in the last section of the article, in particular his contributions in Gloucestershire which are mentioned in his tombstone pictured in the article. The ODNB states that he was chairman of the National Education Union and a director of the journal Nineteenth Century and After. His entry in Who's Who also mentions that he was a member of Imperial Committee on Economic Consultation and Co-operation in 1933; Chairman of Executive of the Parents' National Educational Union (and was President in 1945); President of the Gloucestershire Rural Community Council; and Chairman of the Gloucestershire Branch of Council for the Preservation of Rural England. It also mentions his appointment as Commander of the Legion of Honour in 1932, and his promotion to Grand Officer in 1938. Finally, I notice that the article here doesn't mention his CMG and CB appointments (in the text, with dates and sources), nor does it seem to mention his promotions through the ranks, even though it is stated he ended his career as a Major General. Not major issues, but I think these things deserve mention somewhere. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 13:54, 22 March 2019 (UTC).[reply]

Noswall59, I'm slowly getting to them... Just fully incorporated the ODNB source. If you have any more suggestions just let me know Eddie891 Talk Work 14:24, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Fabian Ware/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: AustralianRupert (talk · contribs) 11:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]


I will review this article shortly. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: G'day, nice work so far with this article. I have the following comments/observations in relation to its GA nomination (happy to discuss anything you don't agree with, or anything you want clarification on): AustralianRupert (talk) 11:48, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • traveled --> "travelled"? (if the intention is to use British English)
  • Milner's Kindergarten is mentioned in the lead, but not in the body
  • suggest expanding the lead to fully summarise the article, including maybe a short sentence or two about the subject after the First World War
  • what rank was he when he was appointed to the British Army?
  • I suggest adding dates of promotion, where relevant throughout the text. You might be able to find this information in the London Gazette
  • The original object of the unit was to "search for British wounded and missing in the district which had been overrun by the Germans during the retreat from Mons, and to convey them back to the British lines or to a British base." -- quotes should be attributed in text. For instance, According to X, the original object of the unit was...
  • are all the awards in the infobox referenced in the article? Unless I missed something (which is certainly possible) I couldn't find mention of the Croix de guerre, the Order of the Crown, the Order of the Bath, the Order of St Michael and St George, or the Legion of Honour mentioned. Anything in the infobox needs to be referenced, also, which is usually achieved by mentioning it in the body with a citation there
  • Royal British Commission at the Exposition Universelle of 1900: perhaps clarify where this was (Paris, I think?)
  • In 1905, he was offered the editorship of the Morning Post: I assume he moved back to the UK at this time. Is that correct? It might pay to make this clearer, if covered in a reliable source
  • members of the papers staff: "paper's"
  • "we threw the whole weight of the Morning Post against war with Germany -- I wonder if he ever came to regret this, given that he would have seen first hand the result of this? (If it isn't covered in a reliable source, no worries -- it is really just a random musing)
    • Here's the full paragraph from Milner, maybe you can help me parse out the meaning... ". Although Lord Glenesk knew what he wanted when he appointed Ware, it is less certain that he knew what he had got. He had brought in an outsider to put an ailing business back on its feet, and over the next five ‘erratic but brilliant’ years he found that he had not so much bought himself a ‘new broom’ as a high-jacker, an unruly Milnerian cuckoo in the comfortable old Tory nest, an imperial zealot, Tariff Reformer, and universal conscript-monger, hell-bent on readying Britain and the Empire for a war with Germany that he half feared and half wanted. ‘At the time of the Delcassé incident’ – the first ‘Moroccan Crisis’ of 1905 – he later told Spenser Wilkinson, his influential military correspondent, 'we threw the whole weight of the Morning Post against war with Germany. I am ashamed that I did not understand what we were doing at the time. I now believe that England ought to have fought them then – at any rate she is every month becoming less prepared relatively to Germany to fight her than she was then … It [the Morning Post] should boldly point to the German danger and use the lesson of present events to rub in the immediate necessity of universal military service and the reorganizing of naval matters." Was he then advocating 'against' fighting or for it? Eddie891 Talk Work 13:15, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's a pretty complex paragraph. I would say that initially he was against it, and used the paper to campaign against war, but he later realised/or thought that an earlier engagement (before World War I) might prevent a larger, costlier war at a time when Britain no longer had some advantage. So potentially a case of choosing the lesser evil. It appears he then advocated for better preparedness (which doesn't mean necessarily campaigning for war, just putting in place the means to fight it from a position of advantage if need be). That is just my interpretation, though; probably not authoritative. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:28, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • there is a pretty large gap (in terms of years) in the article in the post war section in regards to his employment until the Second World War. Aside from publishing his book, do we know what he did? Was he demobilised after the war? There are some comments on the article's talk page in this regard that probably should be covered off on
  • what was his rank at the start of the Second World War?
  • do we know what he died from?
    • I think perhaps just old age. The NYTimes in its obituary (pitifully short), writes that "failing health caused him to retire" (in 1948) and he died the following year so presumably it was the same health failing. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:18, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • No worries, if it doesn't say specifically, maybe just mention that he had suffered poor health for a period leading to his retirement. That would then tie into the sentence where you mention his death. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:28, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the text says he died in Barnwood, but the infobox says Amberley. Which is correct? I note that this source says he died at home in Amberley: [1]
  • in read mode, there seems to be some legacy coding displaying above the Authority control box: "|}". Do you know how to fix this?
  • Fatal avenue: a traveller's history of the battlefields of Northern France and Flanders, 1346–1945: probably would be better presented if it used title case capitalisation. For instance " Fatal Avenue: A Traveller's History of the Battlefields of Northern France and Flanders, 1346–1945"
  • as per the above, The Immortal Heritage. An account of the work and policy of the Imperial War Graves Commission during twenty years 1917–1937: title case?
  • Richard Jebb is overlinked in the last paragraph in the Early life section, suggest removing the duplicate link
  • Edward VIII is overlinked in the last paragraph of the First World War section, suggest removing the duplicate link
  • is there an access date for citation # 3?
  • is there an ISBN for the Holmes source?
  • is there a location of publication for the Potter source?

Criteria

1. Well written: checkY

a. the prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
b. it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

2. Verifiable with no original research: checkY

a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
b. all in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;
c. it contains no original research; and
d. it contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism.

3. Broad in its coverage: checkY

a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and
b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. checkY

5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute checkY

6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: checkY

a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Thoughts for improvement

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  • "Ware next became editor of the Morning Post" Was this still in the Transvaal?
  • "He ended the war as a major general" I know that this is the lead, but just when did he join the army. If it was due to Milner's intervention it should be briefly mentioned. Having read the article I am little wiser as to just when, or even if, he was commissioned. The first mention I can find is "On 22 May, he was made a temporary major". The date of his initial commission should be given, as should that of each subsequent promotion.
  • Is there a reason why "serviceyears" is not completed in the infobox?
  • "Bachelier-es-Sciences" Why the upper cases?
  • "regarding technological education" Are you sure that shouldn't be 'technical'?
  • "When the unit was disbanded, it had dealt with 12,000 casualties@ When was the unit disbanded?
  • "He received the Croix de Guerre and was made a Commander of the Order of the Crown of Belgium.""Is the date of either known?
  • "He published an account of the work of the commission in 1937" Which commission? Shortly before the "Imperial Economic Commission" is mentioned.
  • "His grave has a CWGC-style headstone" If an abbreviation is used, it should previously have been given in brackets after a prior full mention.

Gog the Mild (talk) 14:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Copy edit queries

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  • I suspect that cite 22 has been misplaced? If not, it states that Ware was a director of, not a consultant for, Rio Tinto.
  • "negotiating with France" is a little vague. Do you mean 'negotiating with the French government'?
  • The citations are inconsistently styled.
  • Some citations seem to lack required information.
  • Assuming that the "References" section is synonymous with a bibliography, it is incomplete.
  • Cite 6c seems not to support the preceding text.

Gog the Mild (talk) 23:57, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

HI Eddie891: I have finished my first run through for GoCE. As well as some of the issues at the top of this section still being unresolved, I flag up six others above. I will allow my edits to "settle" and have another run through in a couple of days. Let me know if you have any issues with my edits to date. Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:23, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments:

  • A brief explanation of Milner's Kindergarten in the main article may be in order, if only 'one of a group of young Briton's later known as'.
  • If "kindergarten" is flagged as German in the article, it should be in the lead as well.
  • "the Board of Education" Boards of education in England at the time were always local. Do we know which one?
  • Do we know when he moved to southern Africa? If so, it could be mentioned in the chronologically appropriate place.
  • "the request reached the Lieutenant Governor" Do we know where he was Lieutenant Governor of? Ie, which Lieutenant Governor?

And that's me done. Shout if you have any queries. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild, Thanks for taking this on. I am getting to your comments as I can. One thing that I am curious about is the decapitalizing of awards (ie. "Commander of the Royal Victorian Order" -> "commander of the Royal Victorian Order") as in practice, I have always seen it capitalized (Prince Harry has been made a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, etc.) Eddie891 Talk Work 13:09, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Me too. That happens in lots of specialist areas - they capitalise things important to them. But MOS:JOBTITLES. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:33, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You should use British English per MOS:TIES.
You should find the publication date. Can you give an example? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:45, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gog the Mild, I think I have addressed everything. Do you mind taking a look at the article now? Eddie891 Talk Work 22:07, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oooh, are you planning to take this to ACR/FAC Eddoe891? I'd love to see such a deserving subject given the treatment he deserves. I have some overlapping source material from my work on war memorials (especially the Tower Hill Memorial, the only CWGC memorial I've done so far). It's been on my watchlist for years but let me know if I can do anything to help. I'll have a proper read through when I get chance. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:37, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Take 2

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Sure Eddie. I have stuck it on my to do list. It may take me a few days to get around to it. Let me stress again that you should feel entirely free to query or challenge any edits or comments I make. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:13, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The comments below are all made on the assumption that this article is looking to be put up for FAC.

  • "Ware next became editor of the Morning Post" Was this still in the Transvaal?
  • clarified
  • "He ended the war as a major general" I know that this is the lead, but just when did he join the army. If it was due to Milner's intervention it should be briefly mentioned.
  • Thought I mentioned it with "Ware and his graves' registration organization were transferred to the British Army in 1915." There's no evidence it was because of Milner's intervention
  • I cannot find dates for either
  • "After leaving the Morning Post, he became a consultant for Rio Tinto Limited, negotiating with the French government" Your cite 1 states that Ware was a director of, not a consultant for, Rio Tinto.
  • yeah, there's a lot of inconsistancy... will look further into it
  • The style of hyphenation of ISBNs should be consistent.
  • "Footnotes" Some single pages are shown as "pp."; some page ranges as "p."
  • Sources are required to give a minimum level of information - eg see "United Empire".
  • picked a better source
  • Why is The School World not considered to be a book?
  • "the Board of Education" Boards of education in England at the time were always local. Do we know which one?
  • I found it listed here as london, but don't know if that's reliable or not...
  • Do we know when he moved to southern Africa? If so, it could be mentioned in the chronologically appropriate place.
  • I can't find it explicitly stated, but there is no evidence he moved before being appointed there, so we can assume he moved upon getting the role as Assistant commissioner.
  • The infobox says that his (army[?]) service commenced in 1918, the text that he became a temporary major bin 1915. On the surface this seems contradictory. There may be a reasonable explanation; if so, it should be given in the text.
  • Yeah, it should be 1915, 1918 was from before I began editing the article, I believe

Hi Eddie. I haven't reread the article yet, as the points above seemed enough to be going on with. If you want to come back to me with these fixed; or an explanation of how I have the wrong end of the stick; or whatever, I will then do a full second reread and copy edit. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion and sources

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@Eddie891: This is a great article. I've just had a proper read-through. There are a few things that I could pick at or that I'd change if it was "my" article, but mostly stylistic things. The only major concern I have is that it doesn't really give me a feel for the man. I would have expected an article on such a distinguished figure to be quite a bit longer. I'd like to see more than just the dates and places but some real detail on what the IWGC was and what it did, including reference to some of its monuments and cemeteries, and Ware's role in them (for example, he played peacemaker between Lutyens and, well, everyone else, on several occasions; he was closely involved with the inception of the Tower Hill Memorial for example, and there's a photo of him at the unveiling of Thiepval with Lutyens and KGV). I have several of the books cited and access to the ODNB online so I know the material exists, it's just finding a way of incorporating it into the article to put some meat on the bones. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:37, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree both that what is here is in pretty good shape - my nitpicking above notwithstanding - and that it is short for such a significant character. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:41, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Yes, I wasn't sure how much interest there was for in-depth content about the Commission's work on this page vs keeping most of the info on the CWGC page, but I can certainly expand it. I personally own Crane's book and have scans of most of the cited pages, but if you could send me anything, or add it yourself, that would be greatly appreciated Eddie891 Talk Work 21:30, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I was afraid you'd say something like that! ;) I'll have to dig for the books I used for Tower Hill (moved house since then!). Give me a week. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:50, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gog the Mild and HJ Mitchell, I'm expecting to be at home for a while sometime in the near future, so while it will be because of rather unfortunate circumstances, it should allow me to greatly expand the article. It turns out that I have a good portion of A Study in the History and Politics of The Morning Post, 1905-1926 that I can incorporate, I will also re-read Crane's book, and any help HJ Mitchell can provide (no rush at all) will be greatly provided. I'm just curious whether you two feel the article would benefit from more about Ware's work with the Morning Post. I find it fascinating, given his dynamism, but am not sure it merits extensive coverage here. Eddie891 Talk Work 01:07, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Short answer: no. Slightly longer answer: maybe a little. Gog the Mild (talk) 01:15, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
figured as much... Eddie891 Talk Work 01:28, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As long as it's about him, a little bit more detail is fine, but bear in mind that the article should cover what he's primarily notable for, which is the CWGC. I've dug up the books I used for Tower Hill (they're all in your bibliography) but I'm in the middle of a project of my own as well as a few other things at the moment so it might be a few more days before I can add much. I don't think we need chapter and verse on the CWGC's history, it has its own article for that, but there's little in the article about Ware's role in it besides times and places. his involvement in the CWGC's work and his shepherding of major projects (eg Thiepval and Tower Hill, which I know well because of my research on Lutyens, but there's also the Menin Gate and the three Royal Navy memorials on the south coast, not to mention numerous cemeteries and other fronts besides the Western), which aren't even mentioned in the article. I'd also expect more on his motivations and his relations with other parties (the Prince of Wales, the prime minister, the French and Belgian governments, the architects—including dealing with the feuding between Lutyens, Blomfield, and Baker) in a prospective featured article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:36, 14 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, quite. I suppose that I hadn't really factored it in, not really realizing until recently how big Ware's influence really was, and the prominent figures he interacted with... I hope we can sufficiently expand in the near future. Of course I understand we all have our own projects, so please do not feel rushed. I'll check back in towards the end of the month maybe. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:58, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Sorry to be a bother, but do you think you could add some soon, or e-mail me the pages? I'd like to nom for A-classs soon... Eddie891 Talk Work 17:59, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Was coming for another look this afternoon but got busy with FAC. Bear with me a few hours. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:02, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I have any source material you don't. You've got the ODNB entry, Summer, Geurst, Stamp, Crane, Longworth. They all contain lots of material on Ware; Crane is pretty much entirely about him. I would suggest going back to those, especially Crane, and pumping them for more detail. For example, there's no mention of any individual cemetery or memorial here. He must have expended huge amounts of energy over huge projects like Etaples, Thiepval, and the Menin Gate, but none of those is mentioned in the article, and I know he was heavily involved in the projects in the UK (Tower Hill and the three Royal Navy memorials); that's before even considering memorials elsewhere (Turkey, obviously, and the other Commonwealth nations, eg the India Gate). The extra detail you've added recently on the no repatriation policy is great. Those are the sorts of details that give us a full picture of the man. I'd suggest having a look at some other FA biographies; I can't think of any on a figure like Ware exactly (I'm not even sure such a figure exists!), but Charles Holden is a great example of an FA on an architect and Brian Horrocks is an excellent FA on a military commander. Note that those articles cover the battles fought and the buildings designed (as applicable), and the subject's role. I'd love to see this get its star and what you'e got so far is good, but I still think more detail is needed; the good news is you already have the source material you need (that's the bit I struggle with most often). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:12, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

HJ Mitchell, Thanks, and I'll certainly expand it greatly. The one source that I really cannot access (while my library is closed) at all is Summers. If you have it and could find the time to send me some relevant pages (via email), I'd be greatly indebted. Otherwise, I'll just wait until things open up over here to get (because Amazon won't even deliver copies to where I live). Eddie891 Talk Work 23:21, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have Summers but I was quite disappointed with it. It's a beautifully laid out book but it's heavy on images and light on text and doesn't contain much in the way of information that you can't find in the other books. But if there's a particular page or something you need because it's already cited and you can't get hold of it any more, let me know and I'll email it over. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 08:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, I have pages 15-16 cited in the article. If you could send them, that would be great! I've ordered Longworth, Gibson & Ward, have an e-book of Stamp, own Crane, have the ODNB, and can get pretty much all of Geurst from GBooks, so I should be set for further expansion soon. Thanks so much for your help! Eddie891 Talk Work 12:27, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Shoot me an email and I'll send you photos of the relevant pages. I have hard copies of Stamp, Geurst, Crane, Longworth, nearly every word written on Lutyens, and various books on war memorials (mostly British) in general so I'll try to help where I can. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:51, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Sent! I'm slowly going through and getting to projects Ware had more involvement in. It's difficult though: Ware seems to have been involved in some way with just about all of them. Crane says he was present at the dedication of Chatham, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Menin Gate, Tyne Cot, Neuve-Chapelle, Merchant Navy, Nieuport, Soissons, La Ferte-sous-Jouarre, Le Touret in the span of six years; and it takes a fair amount of looking to find how involved he was in them individually. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:37, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Got it, thanks! am I correct in assuming these are pgs 15-17? I can't see the numbers... Eddie891 Talk Work 14:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Page 17 carries on from 16 so I thought I'd send you that as well for completeness and you can use whichever bits you need. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:56, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Thanks again. I've expanded the article based on my sources a fair amount, and am mainly now waiting for the others to come in... As far as content goes, is the stuff now in the article about his work on places like Gallipoli and Thiepval what you had in mind? What's in the article right now is just about all I can find, though Stamp goes a little more in-depth about some negotiations, but I think how it stands is a reasonable amount of detail for Ware's article. As far as most other monuments go, the sources I have don't really talk about his involvement specifically (also, sorry for pinging you so much, if you'd rather I didn't, just let me know) Eddie891 Talk Work 12:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've added Winter to your bibliography and cited him for a detail. Also sent you an email with another page from Winter that might be useful, if only for satisfying 1c. And I've sent you another email with three pages from Borg, Alan (1991). War Memorials: From Antiquity to the Present. London: Leo Cooper. ISBN 9780850523638. that discuss Ware and the IWGC (and the original three principal architects).

No worries about the pings. I've got it watchlisted but I don't mind the pings at all. Yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. There might not be an awful lot in the sources about the exact role he played in any given project but the sheer scale and breadth of what he was involved in speaks for itself. I think there might be a little more in Longworth (at least I think that's where I got quite a bit of the material for Tower Hill) but what you've got is great. You probably want to mention some of the individual cemeteries, especially Etaples because it's the biggest and one of the most famous (there's also a PD painting of it pre-Lutyens/CWCG). Guerst might be the best source for that. I'll have a look in Lutyen and the Great War later for some material about Lutyens' relationship with Ware. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:59, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Eddie891: I've sent you sent you another few emails with extracts from Skelton. Hopefully there's something in there you can use. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:46, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Thanks so much! I'll see what I can do with the pages, and I'll be sure to add what I can find about the cemeteries. I seem to not have gotten the attachments of 72-74 from Borg, but got all the others fine. Eddie891 Talk Work 22:43, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, I've (re)sent Borg. It only covers the IWGC in brief, with a little detail on each of the principal architects, but it discusses Ware and the main battlefield memorials so it's worth including. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:51, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Got those thanks! I seem to have also not gotten Skelton p. 140 Eddie891 Talk Work 23:28, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Resent that one. Let me know if you need any more. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:29, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Ward & Gibson's Courage Rembered just came in, seems to be pretty useful. I'll go through that this week, then Longworth should be in by Friday and I can incorporate that, so I foresee a an A-class nom sometime towards the end of two weeks from now. Thoughts on the article are welcomed, and I'll keep you updated. I emailed the CWGC about releasing some images of Ware under CC license on 6 April, but they say it can take up to 20 business days to respond so it could be a bit. Eddie891 Talk Work 18:03, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's great to hear. Let me know if you need anything else from the books I have. I'll try and give it another head-to-toe read through before you nominate it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:04, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell, Longworth just arrived... A week and a half late, but I'll incorporate it throughout this week and ping you as I finish up Eddie891 Talk Work 17:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm convinced that longworth is going to make this article just about complete. It has an incredible amount of detail Eddie891 Talk Work 21:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The only thing it mentions in relation to Ware and Etaples is "Ware had gone to great lengths to ensure that the trains which passed right by it on their way between Boulogne and Paris would linger for a minute or two outside it to allow the passengers a glimpse Eddie891 Talk Work 20:49, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to hear you're making good progress! I'm sure I've read that quote somewhere before. It's a shame nobody thought to document what "great lengths" he went to. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:47, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah the general theme seems to be sources saying " he put so much work into this" but not feeling the need to go into much depth about the effort. It also seems that he was involved in just about everything, from construction to negotiations to funding to propping the commissions public image, so there's still more to write.
It's also fascinating how much he did: His work in the transvaal alone is notable, work for The Morning Post makes him highly notable, and then went on to found and essentially lead the CWGC until 1947.
The CWGC got back to me on one query about an image of him; they were rather unhelpful, I've emailed about a couple others, including the one of him with King George V at Tyne Cot (it's on commons but I'm concerned it isn't PD). Eddie891 Talk Work 12:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've just about incorporated every mention of Ware in Longworth into the article. I think there may be a few more things here and there, but I'm going to copyedit and double check references now Eddie891 Talk Work 22:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gog the Mild, HJ Mitchell: I have now incorporated as much as I feel is needed into the article, and extensively read it over/ copyedited. While I still have reference tightening to do (I will double-check every single reference this week), the prose is as developed as I feel I can get it on my own. I'd really appreciate it if you would be so kind as to copyedit the article and/or comment here. Some things that I struggled with:
  1. Keeping things together (i.e. a paragraph about Gallipoli might cover from 1915-1930 but the next paragraph would go back to 1920)-- I tried to keep it as chronological as I could, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated
  2. Illustration. There just aren't many images of Ware in the public domain, and the CWGC, unfortunately, did not release any. Fingers crossed on a book that google should be releasing into the PD having some
  3. British English: I'm American, so any changing would be useful
  4. Detail: While I am aware there is a lot of things about the Commission that doesn't explicitly mention Ware, I took each on a case-by-case basis for Ware's implicit involvement as well as usefulness in context, and I also think it's hard to understate his involvement. It's a little like the founder of a start-up leading their organisation through the world.
Anyways, a big thank you to you both again (I really cannot say it enough). This article wouldn't be anywhere near as nice as it is now. Please do comment on anything, I'm always happy to discuss/trim/expand anything . Eddie891 Talk Work 01:41, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddie891: I would just like to say thank you for all the work you've put in to the article, it is appreciated. DuncanHill (talk) 14:50, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to second that. You've done a great job and I've really enjoyed our collaboration. I'll read through it head to toe and let you know if I spot any potential problems. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:36, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-review comments

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Just a few things I've picked up as I go through. I'm looking for the sorts of things I'd look for at FAC.

  • There's probably room to expand the lead a little, especially now the body has developed further. For example, it jumps quite abruptly from the mobile ambulance unit to the start of the IWGC, and The Morning Post only gets one sentence.
  • Expanded some, let me know if you want it to be longer
  • If the lead image is deleted on Commons (it's clearly PD and nobody would conceivably claim it was a copyright violation, but ... Commons), you should upload it locally under a fair use claim.
  • You need references immediately after quotes, eg "should boldly point to the German danger"
  • "should boldly point to the German danger" and "rub in the immediate necessity of universal military service and the re-organisation of naval matters". He said that if the newspaper did not adopt that stance, "I cannot . . . continue to accept the responsibility of its editorship." Wilkinson considered the letter "a demand that I should abandon my sincerity as a writer, that is commit suicide". He felt that Ware wanted "to hasten a war with Germany, while I hope it may be averted by proper attention to navy and army and by sound foreign policy" is all the same source -> do they need individual references? Otherwise I think I've gotten them.
  • I'm sure I've read that he was given a military rank to give him and his work a sense of importance when dealing with other officials but I don't get a sense of that from the article
  • Try to reduce your reliance on semi-colons. It's something I've been criticised for at FAC before as they can hamper readability.
  • I tried to split as I could, may be worth trimming down
  • The Belgian Order of the Crown is referred to inconsistently
  • Be consistent with the serial comma (I prefer it, but whatever you do should be consistent).
  • Agreed that the oxford serial comma is better and I've tried to standardize to it.
  • A photo of a CWGC cemetery would be nice, and/or perhaps a monument from Gallipoli or somewhere else that isn't the Western Front just for balance.
  • Sure, I added one of Lone Pine Cemetery in Gallipoli and a CWGC cemetery- I'm positive there is a picture of George V and Ware from this book, but I cannot identify which pictures Ware is in.
  • He failed in this aspect is that the sources' conclusion or ours?
  • Stamp says "Ware was distressed that the various constituent parts of the Empire chose to erect their own memorials as it under- mined his vision of Imperial co-operation and also led to anomalies and the duplication of the names of the Missing in certain cases, but his persuasiveness – for once – was in vain." (p. 96) To me that means he failed, let me know if you just don't see that.

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:11, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've just read it through head to toe and made copy edits here and there. It's in great shape. I see no reason it shouldn't be successful at ACR and/or FAC with just the tiny bit of polishing I've suggested above. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell: Many thanks for your comments and very helpful copy-editing. I've mostly instituted your suggestions, with some questions. Eddie891 Talk Work 20:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Early life - quote

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The last clause of the quote in Early life reads oddly to me - but obviously, if that’s what the quote says... Is it actually “relative” rather than “relatively”? KJP1 (talk) 18:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

KJP1, both Wilson (A Study in the History and Politics of The Morning Post) and Crane (Empires of the Dead) quote it as 'relatively'... I agree it's odd phrasing, but it appears that's what it was. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:15, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for checking, and as that’s how he phrased it, that’s how it should be. It’s a very nice article, by the way, and I shall look out for it at FAC. KJP1 (talk) 05:26, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:07, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

National Education Union

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I have removed the mention of and link to National Education Union, as the article linked is the modern trade union formed in 2017. I strongly suspect that this is a slip by A. J. A. Morris and the ODNB for Parents' National Educational Union mentioned and referenced later in the paragraph, but which Morris fails to mention. There was another "National Education Union" which was an Anglican body set up to oppose the National Education League , but I rather think this had long gone by Ware's time. DuncanHill (talk) 17:11, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Copy edit queries II

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  • In the lead his army service is given as ending in 1918; this is not mentioned in the article. Ditto 1944.
    • "Ware resigned as director-general in 1944 to continue his work with the Commission" I think that's 1944; "On 1 March 1921 Ware relinquished his commission" -? should be 1921
I wasn't aware that "director-general" was a military rank and didn't read that as Ware resigning his commission. Suggest tweaking to make this clearer.
  • "selecting a committee regarding technical education". "regarding" seems an odd word. Would it be possible to give a brief explanation of the committee's role? (Eg 'to examine' or whatever.)
  • Changed to 'to examine', source says "to advise in the matter of Technical Education"
  • "his daughter Lady Bathurst became owner of the paper" If one has skipped the footnote, or missed it (which is easy to do as you denote footnotes with [a], [b] etc which can be confused with citations unless one is paying very close attention. (I use [note a], [note b] etc for this reason.)), it is not clear that Lady Bathurst is the Lilias Borthwick mentioned earlier.
  • converted to [note 1], etc. Good call
  • "attempted to convince her of his dislike for Ware" I haven't read the source, but I suspect that this is not what you mean. Perhaps 'turn her against Ware' or similar?
  • Done, good call
  • "After threatening to sue over libel" Is it known who he threatened to sue?
  • After some digging, it was L. J. Bathurst, Lady Bathurst's brother-in-law and the paper's manager, though it's not immediately clear if he was the only one pressing charges.
I'm being picky, but "L. J. Bathurst, the paper's manager and Lady Bathurst's brother-in-law" sounds like three separate people. Maybe 'L. J. Bathurst, who was the paper's manager and Lady Bathurst's brother-in-law'?

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:35, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Ware became a special commissioner for Rio Tinto Limited" Are you sure that commissioner is the correct/most appropriate word? Ignore this, I have just spotted the footnote.
  • "the Red Cross's Wounded and Missing department" Either "d" should be 'd'; or "W" and "M" should be 'w' and 'm'.
  • capital 'D' is the usage Crane has, have amended
  • "Mobile ambulance unit" section: chronology: The second paragraph ends "When the unit was disbanded in May 1915, it had dealt with 12,000 casualties and treated 1,000 at its hospital."; the next "By December, the unit had dealt with over 4,000 wounded soldiers"; the last "In early 1915 ..." It would be easier to follow in chronological order.
  • Hm... mostly shuffled around, let me know what you think. I've left one October before a September 1914, because I think it flows better with Crane's quote, but I can rearrange if you want.
No, that seems reasonable.
  • "Ware divided the Commission into four regions ... dividing it into two main parts and seven sections ... The organization began handling requests ... and the sections worked on grave maintenance." I'm confused.
  • I am too... Crane p.54 says "Ware had divided the Commission into two parts, with seven distinct sections to carry out the field work and a headquarters" with the only date around that section being the middle of August 1915", Longworth seems to contradict by saying eight... I have attempted to clarify as best I can, but will look into it
I'll leave it with you then. (Purely guessing, it is possible that Ware set up a framework which was unsatisfactory and which he promptly amended.)
It seems Ware divided into four sections initially, but it grew into eight. The discrepancy between Ware and Crane seems to be due to the fact that The GRC report stats there were only seven sections of GRC staff, however, it goes on to describe eight sections. This was likely due to two sections being stationed at Bethune according to this thesis. I've added a note about that. Using the thesis with caution, only in the note. Let me know if that's a bad idea.
  • "throughout the rest of the First World War" Do we have a date for when the first double identity discs were issued?
  • It's unclear in Longworth when exactly it was, though it appears to have been created after the Battle of the Somme from 1 July and 18 November 1916, so I have arranged as closely as possible
See Dog tag#History#World War I

Army Order 287 of September 1916 required the British Army provide all soldiers with two official tags, both made of vulcanised asbestos fibre (which were more comfortable to wear in hot climates) carrying identical details, again impressed one character at a time. The first tag, an octagonal green disc, was attached to a long cord around the neck. The second tag, a circular red disc, was threaded on a 6-inch cord suspended from the first tag. The first tag was intended to remain on the body for future identification, while the second tag could be taken to record the death.

Cited to [2] and [3]. Also see [4] and especially [5] (downloadable).
Thanks for those sources! I'm going to have to expand this section a bit based on the BJMH article, seems like Ware's contributions merit a paragraph here
I hoped that you would say that .
  • "during previous British conflicts ... Though the conflict continued into the 1930s" Could we find a synonym for "conflicts"?
  • gone with feud, see if you like that
Good.

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More
  • "He attempted to resolve disagreements between various ethnicities" I think that you are confusing ethnicity with religious affiliation.
  • Ah, yes I was. rephrased
  • "under no circumstances should a cross be erected over an Indian Grave" It may be in the source, but that upper case G just looks wrong.
  • Crane quotes this with an upper case G as well, but only 'Indian Grave'. Odd, but that's what the source says
  • "The IWGC had the responsibility for all men who died in active service from any of the Dominions" This would exclude men from India or the African colonies then?
India didn't become a dominion until 1947; most (black) African colonies never did. I don't know what the sources say, but I suspect that what they mean is dominions and colonies; or 'responsibility for men from members of the Commonwealth who died in active service.'
Skelton says Dominions, but Longworth p. 27 (the more authoritative source ) says that "The Colonies, Dominions and India were all represented" Is it accurate to express this as 'commonwealth?
Researching a little, no. (Sorry.) The appropriate term from the time for what Longworth states would be "the Empire", linked to British Empire.
  • "In late 1917, Ware began searching for a replacement to Aitken." Do we know why?
  • Skelton says Aitken didn't support Ware's overall vision, have added a sentence hopefully clarifying
  • "He was considered one of the faces of the Commission" Ware or Ellison?
  • Ware
  • "In 1939, he spoke to the Soviet Union" I am not sure what "he spoke to the Soviet Union" actually means.
  • Longworth says Ware spoke to Ivan Maisky while the two governments negotiated, have added.
  • "On 1 March 1921 Ware relinquished his commission and was granted the rank of honorary major-general ... On 3 September 1939 he was granted an emergency commission with the honorary rank of major-general." Did he lose his honorary rank at some point between these two dates?
  • Will look into this
  • The London Gazette says "Hon. Maj.-Gen. Sir Fabian Arthur Goulstone WARE, K.C.V.O., K.B.E., C.B., C.M.G., LL.D., is granted an emergency commn. with the Hon. rank of Maj.-Gen. 3rd Sept. 1939." and "The undermentioned, mow empld. with the Imperial War Graves Cominn., relinquish their commissions. 1st Mar. 1921 : — Temp, Maj. -Gen, Sir F. A. G. Ware, K.B.E., C.B., C.M.G., Spec. List, and is granted the hon. rank .of Maj. -Gen"-- Will see if I can find some more detail
  • "Cooperation between the army and the IWGC did not flow well, and progress was hampered by a lack of agreement." Is this not saying the same thing twice?
  • Yes it is, rephrased

I agree with Harry, this is more than FAC ready; get it nominated. A great piece of work. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:54, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild, Many thanks again for these comments (I'll try and address them shortly), and I'll nominate once I get the chance to triple check the referencing. As an aside, do you think I should nominate for A-class first, or go straight to FAC? Eddie891 Talk Work 14:00, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Eddie891, if it were me, which it isn't, I would go straight for FAC. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:01, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Going straight to FAC is bold but I think reasonable. It's the way I'd go. But Milhist A-class is very good FAC prep if you want belt and braces. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Take III
[edit]
  • "He was the sixth son of Charles and Amy Carew Ware" Did they not have any daughters?
  • actually sources conflict, the ODNB says he was the only son, the Anglo... says the sixth, Crane says "third son of the second marriage". I can add a note saying that, or can just remove mention of it
Your call, but personally I would lose it.
  • "became Lady Bathurst's favourite editor" I assume then that she had more than one editor at the time?
  • I think it means of all later editors, source says "favourite amongst the editors of the Morning Post" but it appears the only other editor the Countess/lady had was H. A. Gwynne, so I could realistically remove this, particularly as other sources talk about how Ware didn't really get along with her and she liked Gwynne a lot.
Good call.

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The unit struggled as ... French capabilities to handle their casualties increased" I don't see that this follows.
  • I guess the idea is that the unit became almost unnecessary as the French didn't really need their help anymore. I've played with the wording a bit, see if that works
Yup.
  • "representatives from the British Empire were included" Possibly 'representatives from the dominions of the British Empire were included'?
  • Sure
  • Just checking that Ware jumped straight from lieutenant colonel to brigadier general without being a colonel on the way.
  • yup
  • "By April 1917 ... such as the Somme and Third Ypres in 1916 and 1917" I understand the difficulties, but this jars a little.
  • Looking back the mentioning the battles doesn't help, as it's not particularly relevant to anything else, and certainly doesn't relate to Ware at all. Cut
  • "particularly the homes of next of kin" Do you mean 'particularly the addresses of next of kin'?
  • yes

Et fin!

Gog the Mild (talk) 13:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Images
  • "File:Cimitero del girone 3.jpg" was taken in Italy. Italy does not have freedom of panorama. I recommend finding a photo of a stone from a less troublesome country.
  • replaced with "File:Kemmel - Kemmel Chateau Military Cemetery 3.jpg" from Belgium
  • "File:Site plan for the Forceville Communal Cemetery Extension.jpg" Needs a US PD tag.
  • added

Gog the Mild (talk) 16:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fabian Ware

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I only noticed just now that you did get Fabian Ware to featured article status in the end. Congratulations on that. I have just been reading it and it looks great. Nice to see that the blue plaque image I added back in 2016 is still there (though I feel a bit guilty there is no reference!). I was minded to look into that again (for some reason I thought I had a photo from Westminster Abbey of the [small] memorial stone there [which the IWM War Memorials Register lists as an 'exception' to their inclusion criteria!], but I don't have a photo of that after all) and I noticed there is another (local) plaque marking his birthplace in Bristol, on Glendower House - it seems a bit obscure, though see here and here. I had a bit more luck with finding a freely licensed photo of his CWGC-style grave headstone in Amberley, and have uploaded that to Commons and added to the image category for him, see here - I prefer the Gloucester Cathedral tablet image, but you may want to find room for the grave photo? (I was unaware until now of the 'epitaph' there: "I BELIEVE IN THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS" - I can't remember how much Crane and others talk of Ware's religion - was he deeply religious?) Carcharoth (talk) 02:17, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth, thanks for looking into this! I'll add the image when I get a chance, as well as a mention of the plaque and that it's an exception-- all very interesting. wrt the Westminster Abbey memorial, the last time I was there, I inquired about where his stone would be, and if memory serves it was in an area I couldn't easily take a picture in. Looking at Crane right now, in the index under 'Ware, Fabian Arthur Goulstone; religious influence on", I see two places where it turns up: On p. 15, Crane writes that his childhood was steeped in "the theological rancour of Victorian England's most combative, divisive and embattled Calvinist sect" and says as an adult "his whole life remained a constant such for a faith or dream". The following page, Crane expounds on that, saying that ware was looking for an alternative "for the religious certitudes and deep seriousness of the faith he had intellectually abandoned". He goes on to write that "Ware's whole life became a violent rejection of a sect that had turned its back on the whole world". Then on p.229, Crane mentions religion a bit again. From reading the book, I didn't get the impression he was deeply religious, but could add a mention if you think it's relevant. Anyways, I'll try to get to this asap, but I have got a lot to catch up on. Best wishes, Eddie891 Talk Work 12:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Ware tablet (really just a rectanglar stone placed in the wall) is in St George's Chapel (originally the Warriors Chapel) to the right of the main door as you go in (i.e. to your right as you face the grave of the Unknown Warrior). When I was in that area after the service to dedicate the floor tablet to C. S. Lewis in December 2013, I took a photo of the WW2 Civilian Roll of Honour (see also here), but the chapel itself is generally locked and not well-lit. The other item in that side chapel is the tablet to the British Empire dead of the World Wars (originally just for WWI of course) - there is a fascinating history there, which I did an article on here (there is an error there relating to later tablets that I think were never actually erected that needs correcting by digging into the CWGC online archives). The photos in that article are from several countries, including some from a trip to Amiens, but annoyingly I failed to set the resolution on my camera to a high enough setting to be able to transcribe the Afrikaans inscription on the memorial tablet in Amiens Cathedral in 2014 (though it was hard to even find that tablet it looks so different to the others). Anyway, the reason I mention it is that Ware does mention the cathedral tablets a fair amount in his reports and his The Immortal Heritage (1937) - do you have a copy of that? I may be too close to the subject of the cathedral tablets to judge it objectively, but could you look and see if you think it should be mentioned in the Ware article? This should really be taken to the article talk page, please feel free to move it there. Carcharoth (talk) 14:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Carcharoth: Apologies, I let this one get away with me, while experimenting with the admin tools, among other things. I think there's definitely room for a mention of the memorial tablets in here-- Though I don't own Ware's book, I have looked through it. I don't really have access to the sourcing to write the part, so please feel free to write a bit if you have the time! Best, Eddie891 Talk Work 11:28, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. I didn't see this until just now, and it has just run as featured article (congrats on that). I will think on this and see if I can add something suitable at some point. Carcharoth (talk) 04:05, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

conflict of dates

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section: Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries

As Ware's work with graves continued, discussion about a "double identity disc" (previously there was only one per soldier) began in early 1916 and continued through 1915. I do not have access to the references so have not changed anything but surely one of the years is wrong? Thanks, an informative article Edmund Patrick – confer 10:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Edmund Patrick, thanks for bringing this up. I've had a look at the sourcing, and began in early 1916 is sourced to Ashbridge, p.24, which says This led to discussion about the use of two identity discs in early 1916,. However, as is clearly described later, the discussion did not begin then, but continued. I've rephrased to "Began in 1915 and continued into early 1916. Let me know if that doesn't work. Thanks, Eddie891 Talk Work 12:21, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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