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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Independent/private/public controversy in recent edits

In my view, either "independent school" or "public school" would be better usage than "private school" as a description of Eton. Eton was one of the "public schools" regulated under the Public Schools Act 1868. Those attending such schools today would still naturally call them "public schools". "Independent school" represents more modern terminology and perhaps a broader category - but Eton is recognizably and undeniably also an independent school (and is indeed regulated as such). "Private school" is potentially misleading, since that is a phrase which has historically been used in the UK principally to denote preparatory schools educating boys between the ages of (about) 8 and 13. I note that the article on Independent school suggests that, "The terms independent school and private school are often synonymous in popular usage outside the United Kingdom." [Emphasis added.] 45ossington (talk) 16:28, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

It needs to be taken into consideration that Wikipedia is global. In every country it is understood that an organisation is either public sector or private sector. To talk of a private hospital or a private company is clearly understood. Using Anglo-centric terms for private schools such as 'public' or 'independent' are obviously going to be confusing. 'Public school' is unversally understood to mean a school in the public sector. 'Independent school' can clearly be confusing. Independent from what? A public sector school could be independent from government control. British 'academies' are public sector but are independent from Local Education Authority control. Describing Eton as a private school is clear, unequivocal and unambiguous. (Garageland66 (talk) 10:02, 27 August 2016 (UTC))

Yes, Wikipedia is global, but MOS:STRONGNAT says that "[a]n article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the English of that nation". Despite what User:Garageland66 says about terms being universally understood, in the UK a "public school" is not a school in the public sector. "Public school" and "independent school" have legal meaning in the UK, and though academies may be schools with some degree of independence, they are not "independent schools". And as User:45ossington says, the term "private school" in the UK often means a prep school, and not any fee-paying school, so is not "clear, unequivocal and unambiguous" when referring to Eton. Before the recent edit the article and infobox had links to the specific UK meanings of "public school" and "independent school" for those readers who might be unfamiliar with this usage. Wikipedia should be there to educate, not dumb down. Opera hat (talk) 10:51, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Correction. MOS:STRONGNAT refers to the English language. British English should be used in articles relating to Britain, American English used in articles relating to the U.S. etc. For example 'educational organization' for the U.S. and 'educational organisation' for the U.K. It is refering to language not terminology. Yes Wikipedia should be there to educate and not to confuse. So there needs to be clarity and consistency. The terms public sector and private sector are universally understood, to use Anglo-centric terms is likely to lead to confusion and misunderstanding. (Garageland66 (talk) 11:52, 28 August 2016 (UTC))

Using the terms "public school" and "private school" does cause confusion and misunderstanding, as in some countries both mean a fee paying school (like the UK, for example). Independent seems like a good compromise, because as far as I'm aware, that always means non-government. Benboy00 (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
'Independent doesn't always means non-government because, in the UK, 'academies' are public sector but are indedendent. However they are not private sector and Eton college certainly is. Is anyone seriously trying to assert that Eton College is not private sector? (Garageland66 (talk) 17:34, 29 August 2016 (UTC))
I don't think anyone is trying to assert that Eton or any of the other schools are non paid, and in fact the articles state in the lede that they are paid. However, private and public do not adequately describe the situation, and are confusing terms for historical reasons. I don't understand why you think people will be confused by the term independent. Independent describes the fact that they are not run by the government, and fee paying describes where they get their money from. What extra do you think "private" adds? Benboy00 (talk) 18:01, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree that 'independent' doesn't imply non-paid. No one is asserting that. But it is vague and unhelpful. Over the last ten years most UK public sector secondary schools have converted to academies and are therefore independent. They're independent of central government and Local Education Authority control. This development has made it all the more confusing to describe private schools as independent. If you take private healthcare; go to the BUPA article and in the opening paragraph it is described as a private hospital. If private schools have private school in the opening paragraph the link takes the reader to an article that makes explicitly clear

Private schools, also known as independent schools, non-governmental, or nonstate schools,[1] are not administered by local, state or national governments; thus, they retain the right to select their students and are funded in whole or in part by charging their students tuition, rather than relying on mandatory taxation through public (government) funding; at some private schools students may be able to get a scholarship, which makes the cost cheaper, depending on a talent the student may have (e.g. sport scholarship, art scholarship, academic scholarship), financial need, or tax credit scholarships that might be available.

That is clear, unambiguous and uneqivocal. (Garageland66 (talk) 01:02, 30 August 2016 (UTC))

Just by way of correction, it is completely inaccurate to describe academy schools as "independent of central government", as the user above does. They are, in fact, directly answerable to central government, that being the primary distinction between them, and schools administered by local authorities. KJP1 (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Just by way of correction of the erroneous 'correction' above, the Wiki article on academy schools clearly states "Academy schools are state-funded schools in England which are directly funded by the Department for Education and independent of local authority control. The terms of the arrangements are set out in individual Academy Funding Agreements" The key term is "independent". Schools that are in the private sector are 'private', their independence is incidental. (Garageland66 (talk) 08:39, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
As the proposer for a controversial change to a long-established usage, the onus is on you to seek consensus on the relevant talk pages. It is not appropriate to make the changes unilaterally. Make your case on the talkpage. KJP1 (talk) 09:59, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing controversial about describing a private sector institution as private sector. I have explaned the problem with the erroneous 'independent' claim. As for consensus, there is a consensus. All private schools in the U.S, in Europe in all other developed countries, are described on Wikipedia as private. So there is a consensus and there needs to be consistency. (Garageland66 (talk) 13:13, 6 January 2017 (UTC))

You are proposing to describe Eton, not as a "private sector school" but as a "private school". In my view (which is apparently shared by others), "private school" is potentially misleading for UK users. "Independent" is surely the sensible way ahead: the description is not only widely understood, but also has official status (see Part 4 of the Education and Skills Act 2008).45ossington (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Copied text posted to User talk:Garageland66 for ease of reference. It is possible User talk:Garageland66 may have thought his edits were uncontroversial. Given the comments they have generated, and the multiple "Undos" that have reversed them, it is clear that they are not. It is therefore for Garageland66 to seek consensus for his intended changes on the relevant talkpages.

Garageland;

  • You assert, without evidence, the existence of an international consensus that all schools should be deemed either public or private;
  • You allege, incorrectly and without evidence, that the independence of academy schools from local authority control creates a confusion with the term "independent school." Where is your evidence for this alleged confusion, and how do you square your claim for the independence of academy schools with the fact that they are funded by, and ultimately answerable to, the Department for Education?
  • On the above, flawed, basis, you are unilaterally making changes to a large number of articles, without any consensus to do so, and in disregard of long stability, accepted usage and WP:ENGVAR.
  • You accuse editors opposed to your unilateral changes of "dishonesty".
  • As you are the sole protagonist arguing for these changes, please take them to the relevant Talk pages, along with your verifiable evidence, and seek a consensus.
  • Until then, please stop making inappropriate, unilateral changes.

KJP1 (talk) 17:47, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

In direct response to the above points;

  • There IS a consensus on Wikipedia on describing private schools in the U.S., in Europe and across the developed world as ‘private schools’. An unusual and indefensible exception is being made for the U.K.
  • The confusion created by calling private schools ‘independent’ and then calling academies ‘independent’ is self-evident. Independent from what? From the Department of Education? From the Office of Standards in Education? From the Office of Qualifications and Examinations Regulation?
  • The length of time there has been this spun description of private schools as independent schools, has zero impact on the fact that Wikipedia should not have allowed such a subjective description to have been used in the first place.
  • It IS dishonest to describe private schools as ‘independent schools’ when each article on these schools does not at any stage explain that they are in fact private sector organisations. Indeed, the only mention of ‘private schools’ in the Eton College article is in the history section; “Eton College has links with some private schools in India today”. This leaves the reader wondering why the Indian schools are described as ‘private schools’, yet Eton College is not.
  • I have raised these issues on the talk pages and will continue to do so. (Garageland66 (talk) 14:31, 7 January 2017 (UTC))
Talk is fine, up to the point where it becomes filibustering and time-wasting; since this has been going on since August 2016 at least, that point must be approaching rapidly if it hasn't already been crossed. Either way, repeatedly trying to force through the same edits unilaterally in the associated articles to support your own point of view against a clear consensus is already definitely edit-warring and disruptive. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:14, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap, KJP1, 45ossington, Benboy00. I am no sockpuppet and I'm not trying to filibuster. The fact is that British private schools on Wiki are woefully inconsistent; they're variously described as public, as private and as independent. The whole thing's a mess. But no one wants to do anything about it. And every change I make is immediately reversed (even some non-controversial ones).

This article on Eton makes no mention of the fact that Eton is a fee-paying, private sector school as opposed to a state funded, free at the point of use, public sector school. The only mention of ‘private schools’ is in the history section; “Eton College has links with some private schools in India today”. This leaves the reader wondering that if the Indian schools are described as ‘private schools’, is Eton College not?

What do you propose to do about this? Aren't readers entitled to have it made clear that this a private fee paying school? If I include this in the article, you will all accuse me of 'vandalism' and you will all endeavour to reverse it. Why? Are you claiming that Eton is NOT a private, fee-paying school? Do you not want Wiki to be informative and transparent? (Garageland66 (talk) 13:33, 9 January 2017 (UTC))

We (all) think it's time for you to stop arguing against the extremely clear and definite consensus, which phrases like "you will all endeavour" show that you plainly realise exists, even if you don't like it; and yes, you are definitely filibustering. However if you want an explanation, here is one which Sirmylesnagopaleentheda wrote for you on another school's talk page this morning:
"Let me explain. A private school is one owned and run by the headmaster or a company as a commercial venture. Many preparatory schools fall into this category. A school such as Winchester is founded by Royal Charter, has a board of governors (the Warden and Follows), is a charity at law and is regulated by statute (the Public Schools Act 1868). The conventional use of language is to describe such a school as a public school or an independent school, not a private school, however illogical it may seem." I imagine that many other editors would wish they could have worded this so concisely. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:09, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
So just to get clear, Chiswick Chap you are claiming that schools such as Eton and Winchester are not private? You're using this quote, above, to argue that "The conventional use of language is to describe such a school as a public school" and that this editors word is final? So why did every English language newspaper that reported the 2005 school fixing scandal (The Telegraph, The Guardian etc.) describe those schools (including Winchester and Eton) as private schools? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1502559/50-private-schools-guilty-of-price-fixing.html (Garageland66 (talk) 14:37, 9 January 2017 (UTC))
As I thought, you will talk and talk forever. I however will not. If you will read and listen, do so—many editors have given you their time; if not, you know where it will end for you. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Chiswick Chap Please do not make implied threats. It is self-evident that all those trying to prevent me making clear that these are private schools, are failing to respond to my simple question; are you claiming that these schools are not private sector, fee-paying schools? You are singularly failing to respond to this point. (Garageland66 (talk) 17:27, 9 January 2017 (UTC))

Garageland66, names and terminology on WP must mirror those in common usage, a term which is itself governed by location. Therefore, whereas an article about an American company would use the spelling "organization", one about a British company must use "organisation". When it comes to a term like "private school" or "public school", common usage in England for centuries past has been to call Eton a "public school" regardless of its current official status. That has not changed and WP must both respect and reflect the usage regardless of whether most English people themselves think it is illogical and absurd. You could read WP:ENGLISH as a starter for ten on WP naming policy. Jack | talk page 11:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Garageland66 I'm not really sure what you think isn't clear in the article. Public has a specific meaning for UK schools. If the user is at all confused, they need merely click the link and all will be made clear. The reasoning for the naming has been explained several times, and you haven't really given a reasonable counter argument to that. Obviously no-one would define these schools as non-fee paying, however private doesn't just mean non-fee paying. I applaud your edit here, because that actually is correct and constructive (and interesting). I'm not really sure why you're so adamant about using private when you're technically incorrect. Benboy00 (talk) 03:40, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

"Private schools (also known as ‘independent schools’)"[1] Is the official government description. So why not use this. It includes the words 'independent' and 'private'. It's clear and unambiguous. And it's the official UK government description. How about this as a compromise? Garageland66 (talk) 12:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not governed by any "official UK government description", but by common usage. This article is about an English school, and the common term for such institutions in England is "public school". --David Biddulph (talk) 12:52, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes I'd agree that the seven 'public schools' are so called as a result of the 1868 Public Schools Act. But shouldn't schools described on Wikipedia as 'independent' have the term 'private' in there somewhere? 'Private school' is both "commonly used" in the UK and is the officially recognised term as shown by the government reference above. Most schools in the UK are now academies and the Wiki article describes them as independent but state funded. Wouldn't it help, in the interests of clarity, to make clear that 'independent schools' are not state funded academies, but are private sector fee-paying schools? Garageland66 (talk) 15:30, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Most schools are probably not academies yet - Sources? Why don't you just finally get the message and stop interfering with school articles? What you are doing is simple creating polemic.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:57, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Why don't you just finally get the message Kudpung กุดผึ้ง that my attempts to achieve consistency and clarity do not consitute 'interference'. And when will you get the message that my knowledge of, and experience in, the British education system is of far more help to Wikipedia than your ignorance. Ignorance displayed by comments such as "Most schools are probably not academies yet". Such breathtaking lack of knowledge of the British education system ought to preclude you from interfering with Wiki school articles altogether. Almost two thirds of secondary schools in England and Wales have either converted or are in the process of converting to academy status. (But no, I'm not going to do your research for you. Go and find the sources yourself). Lastly I am not "creating" polemic. This is called a talk page for a reason. The clue's in the word 'talk'. Garageland66 (talk) 15:55, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it's a "Talk Page". It's not an "Endlessly Restate My Discredited Arguments Until I Get My Own Way Through Attrition And Exhaustion Page." You are well aware your intended revisions are controversial and lack consensus. So, if you wish to, work to establish consensus for your proposed changes, bearing relevant policies in mind. But don't expect other editors, who have already made their own positions clear, to continue to debate the merits of your proposed changes. We've already done that and there is currently a very clear consensus against the changes you seek. KJP1 (talk) 19:38, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
"Private schools (also known as ‘independent schools’)" is not controversial. Indeed it's the official description by the elected government. (See the reference above).Garageland66 (talk) 21:55, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
You've been told repeatedly that Wikipedia goes by common usage, not by an "official description" by any government (elected or not). Continually against that consensus is controversial and tendentious editing. --David Biddulph (talk) 01:28, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
And you've had it repeatedly explained that 'private school' IS commonly used in the UK. (I ought to know; I work in the education system in Cambridge, I even deliver a unit on the British education system and the terms 'private school' and 'private education sector' are most certainly commonly used and commonly understood). But then I actually think you all know this perfectly well. However, I am now making an ADDITIONAL point that even the officially used term, used by the elected government, is 'private school'.Garageland66 (talk) 09:56, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

It's an independent school. I should know, I worked there for 30 years. It is a member of the Independent Schools' Council and is inspected by the Independent Schools' Inspectorate. The terms public school and private school are little used in the UK these days and are of historical relevance only.2A02:C7F:6032:BB00:B144:E2E6:ED98:1017 (talk) 13:30, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

  • That's a lie. And you know it is. You're hoping that most readers are not UK residents and don't know what goes on in the UK. Mention Eton College and most British citizens will recognise it as a private school.Garageland66 (talk) 20:41, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

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Can someone add in a list of Etonians that have caused havoc...and damaged UK's long term interests

Can someone add in a list of Etonians that have caused havoc... Maybe on a new page: Some examples:

An interesting idea, but one that I fear would shade into original research. KJP1 (talk) 17:34, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Familiarise yourself with WP:NOT HERE. Alssa1 (talk) 12:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Private College

Well you're all still trying to pretend that this isn't a private sector school. Do you really think that calling this place 'independent' will somehow put readers off the scent? You really think they won't realise this is a privileged, very expensive private institution? Oh dear Garageland66 (talk) 17:21, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Newcastle Scholarship

The article on the Newcastle Scholarship is up for potential deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Newcastle Scholarship on the ground of alleged non-notability. If you have any views on the issue, please express them there. 45ossington (talk) 09:47, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

hi

the kate middleton group/scottish church/labour education/ is gunning for this place.

gunning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.48.108.195 (talk) 09:09, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Compulsory swimming

See Skip Navigation LinksHOME/ADMISSIONS/FOR PARENTS OF NEW BOYS/GAMES Games Eton provides games for boys of all abilities and all ages.

During your first year in the school, you will have the opportunity to participate in a wide range of sporting activities, some you will be familiar with but others (the 'field game' for example) will be new to you.

In the Michaelmas half you will choose on of football or rugby. In addition, you will be able to take part in some of the ‘minor sports’ that Eton offers (chosen by yourself from a long list).

In the Lent you can play hockey and all boys will play the Field Game..

Games take place in the afternoon. The ‘slots’ are as follows:


Monday, Wednesday, Friday

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday

Winter

2.20 – 3.40 and 6.10 – 7.30

2.20 – 7.30

Summer

5.20 – 7.30

2.20 – 7.30


Some boys will find themselves occupied in the majority of these slots. Others will find themselves required in only two or three, and will therefore have time to investigate some of Eton’s many games facilities for themselves. Many boys will play for school teams. Matches against other schools usually take place on Saturdays - your parents may want to come and cheer you on! This website will show them where you are playing when the matches are at Eton. During the week there are coaching sessions and inter-house competitions. Practically every boy in F block will play for his house in one or more of these.

New boys are asked to take a swimming test. Wearing games clothes and gym shoes you have to enter the water from the edge of the pool, submerge totally, swim 50 metres unhurriedly using any front stroke, tread water convincingly, and finally swim 25 metres on your back, all without taking a rest or touching the bottom or the side of the pool. If you find this hard, we will help you to acquire the necessary confidence and skills. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.21.214 (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I am mainly referring to the last paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.21.214 (talk) 14:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Map

Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eton_College&diff=880636317&oldid=880636013

@Lobsterthermidor:

I just found the edit! If the issue is the quality of the map, why not suggest an improved map of Berkshire from the Wikipedians who make the maps? There might also be an improved mapping system that can go in the infoboxes.

As for why I think the school itself needs a map in the infobox rather than relying on the town map, I believe nowadays that people want relevant information as a quick reference in the infobox WhisperToMe (talk) 23:53, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

"One of the 'original' public schools"

I removed the following "Eton is one of the original nine public schools as defined by the Public Schools Act 1868. The others are Harrow, Charterhouse, Rugby, Shrewsbury, Westminster, Winchester, Merchant Taylors' and St Paul's." as I do not believe it to be an accurate reading of the relevant Act - I don't beleive the Act claims exclusivity in the use of the term and, regardless, Merchant Taylors' and St Paul's are not mentioned therein. Even if the statement is broadly accurate (which I do not believe it is) it should make reference to only seven schools, the last two not being included.

dpchalmers (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

I also doubt whether Eton's status under the 1868 Act was sufficiently noteworthy to justify its (former) prominent place in the lead section. 45ossington (talk) 08:42, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Canford School

I have removed the opaque reference to an alleged historical relationship between Eton College and Canford School. Beyond an uninformative reference to John of Gaunt, no explanation was provided about either the nature or the significance of this alleged relationship. 45ossington (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Not clear

It is not clear if participation in the sports at Eton is compulsory or voluntary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:5B9A:E01:387F:5803:8D0E:76B4 (talk) 13:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Eton's website gives the impression that it is voluntary but I am not sure that this is true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:5B9A:E01:387F:5803:8D0E:76B4 (talk) 13:43, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
The website of Eton does not say if membership of the CCF is compulsory. It says boys "can" join the CCF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:5B9A:E01:387F:5803:8D0E:76B4 (talk) 14:01, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
See here: [1] It is a case of shades of Gray. ("What idle progeny succeed ...")---Ehrenkater (talk) 15:57, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

General issues in Drama (and beyond?)

While I found the article engaging and illuminating, I was struck by the lack of references. The Drama section, for example, contains only one reference in its entirety – and it's to an Eton publication. WP:WPSCH/AG also discourages naming teachers unless they're notable themselves. Regardless, I noted the need for a citation, but it seems that the problem may be endemic throughout the article. Thoughts? Ottoump (talk) 00:11, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

"Eton College Police" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Eton College Police. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 6#Eton College Police until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 17:09, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

current?

This article refers to "current prime minister", "current headmaster", and five other "current" things. But no date is attached or implied, so when they stop being whatever they currently are, the article will be wrong.

This ought to be picked up by a robot, I would have thought. Nick Barnett (talk) 14:32, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

  1. ^ https://www.gov.uk/types-of-school/private-schools
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