Talk:Este culture

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Language improvements seemingly leading to faulty content

In 2015, Friafternoon (talk · contribs) (who seems to have ceased to be active) made a (partly poor) translation from the dewp sister article. Some of it was fairly strange, like translating erst (lit. 'first'; here in the sense 'not before') with primal. @Johnbod and Lamona: Here and here, you corrected the language; but unhappily you seem to have misunderstood the text in important ways. In particular, Johnbod interpreted "their" as referring to the Celts rather than to the Este-culture, and Lamina interpreted "they" as referring just to "the Este" rather than to all the Venetians.

I'm going to correct this to what I understand of this matter, from looking at a given source and from what is stated in other enwp and dewp articles. Thus, I'll manually revert important parts of your changes. However, I'm not an expert on these things, and I may have misunderstood what happened. If you actually changed the text content based on better knowledge, then please change back; but also provide sources for the claims that the Estes spoke a separate language and were chrushed by the Venetians. The crucial part of the dewp article (unchanged from 2015) is:

... Die Este-Kultur überstand die Invasion der Kelten und erst ihre Nachfolger, die Veneter, gingen im römischen Reich auf.

Man schreibt die Este-Kultur den Vorläufern der Veneter (ital. Paleoveneti) zu. Die Veneter bildeten einen Puffer zwischen den Illyrern, deren Stammesgebiet auf dem Balkan hinter Triest lag, und den Kelten in der Po-Ebene. Sie hatten eine eigene Sprache und Kultur, die sich dem griechischen Einfluss öffnete, aber das Griechische oder Etruskische nicht imitierte. Die Veneter setzen die Tradition der Este-Kultur fort, als diese in Este erlosch. In Venetien lebt bis heute eine abgewandelte figürliche Kunst fort.

As far as I understood the source and the other wp-articles, the Este culture was (early) Venetian. Actually, a large part of the Venetian inscriptions were found in Este. This is the reason that the dewp article (and its translation, until you changed it) discusses the Venetians and their language in an article about a culture at a specific place (Este). However, the dewp article de:Este-Kultur is more concerned with other cultural expressions (as pottery), and does makes some distinction, noting that the Este culture (also) is described as the "forrunners" of the Venetians, and the Venetians as their "successors". Other articles, concentrating on the people or language, makes even less difference between the older and younger phases; so, the lead of de:Veneter (Adria) ends

Archäologischer Ausdruck der Veneter ist die Este-Kultur, die ihren Namen vom Fundort Este erhielt.

("An archeological expression/impression of the Veneter is the Este-culture, which got its name from the [excavation] site Este.")

Regards, JoergenB (talk) 19:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't really see what you are talking about, but certainly I have no special knowledge. Do you? Johnbod (talk) 01:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnbod: Thanks for cleaning up the text further!

About your questions: As I wrote above: I'm not an expert on these things, and I may have misunderstood what happened. As you can see in the link above, one thing that did happen was that you changed the original (IMHO bad) translation of a German sentence into

Este culture survived the invasion of the Celts and their successors, the Veneti, until it was absorbed in the Roman Empire.

Thus, you seemingly claimed that Este was subject to several attempted invasions, first from the Celts, and then from the successors of the Celts, the Veneti. Both the German text and the other sources showed that the intended meaning was the opposite: that the (later) Veneti were the successors of the Este, not of the Celts.

Lamona went further in this interpretation (possibly inspired by your change?). However, precisely because I do not have special knowledge (as I explicitly explained), I was not quite sure that your and Lamona's edits were mistakes; so when I (as I guessed) corrected them I also alerted you, in case I was wrong.

Does this make things clearer? JoergenB (talk) 10:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]