Talk:Equestrian facility

Equestrian center

The concept of an equestrian center does deserve mention, but probably as a section under Stable, which could use some expansion anyway. The meat of Equestrian center as it is currently written, though, is pretty far from Wikipedia standards. Besides the spelling and grammar problems, there are no wikilinks, and no references. The 'reference' list includes an online video game, a book relevant to horse breeds but not to equestrian centers, and a dead end. The specific 'requirements' of staffing and health care for an equestrian center seem plucked from mid-air. Are they from the video game?

I have seen a few multi-disciplined equestrian centers, which are impressive. A section describing an all-inclusive setup which could at times include veterinary and farrier facilities seems useful. Unless there is more meat here, I can't see this being a standalone article.

A few possible links if this page does grow up (although inclusion of some would lead to inclusion of all...This could turn into a list page if we're not careful):

I propose a major edit and merger into Stable. Getwood (talk) 03:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I basically agree, but ZERO commercial links! (smile). I say merge this thing first and write a paragraph about what major equestrian centers are there, probably a new section, entirely from scratch. I see very little in this article worth saving, other than maybe the concept. I'll do the redirect if you want to draft the new paragraph in stable. I can peek at it when you're done and do more wordsmithing if needed (though you do pretty good writing, I probably won't have much to do!) Montanabw^(talk) 04:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article merges

I have tagged several articles to be merged to this page, including stable, livery yard, riding academy and paddock. At this time, all these articles are stubs or bare start class, and due to huge variations in terminology, notably between BrE and AmE, there is a lot of confusion between the articles.

I believe the solution is to merge the articles (and in fact, all the content from these articles is now merged here) in to one cohesive article. This, of course, does not prevent a future daughter article split again, should enough information on one topic be forthcoming for it to overweigh the article (so, for instance, if the 'stable' section becomes too long, it could be split out again), but at this time, it benefits all the content to be in one place.

There has been a brief discussion on this at Montanabw's talk page, which is shown below for transparency.

OK, I have maybe come up with a way forward, and in the spirit of WP:BOLD have created it. The page is at equestrian facility and I would intend it to replace stable, livery yard and other similar small articles. These article are all stubby and small at the moment (and unlikely to ever become long enough or good enough on their own), and cross over with each other (as many stables also have a rising school, equestrian centre etc.), so the idea is to cover them all in one place, like we do with horse care.
Now i haven't finished - there are still other sections to add, but i concentrated on the stabling section first, where i've tried as hard as possible to keep it international, with explanation of the relevant terms where I can.
However, whilst I'm working, I know that you'll have valuable input so I would be grateful if you could have a look. Once it is in a reasonable state, I would then suggest redirecting the other articles to this single page (which is why livery yard, stable etc. are not in-line linked).
Regards, OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 19:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Ewwww yuck. Bureaucrat speak. May be a solution, wonder if there is one more elegant. Oh, and also notice we also have horse management. I'd kind of prefer to merge it all into barn or something. I'll take a peek and if I have no better ideas, yours probably works, but my own barn and/or stable is hardly an "equestrian facility." LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 22:21, 14 November 2011 (UTC) Follow up that said, I'm impressed with your work. Not sure it means we can merge all the other articles, but I DO like the progress being made. Montanabw^(talk) 22:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I like the idea of a merge of a bunch of small articles into something larger and nicer, although I agree that "equestrian facility" is maybe not the most elegant name for it. Some possible merges:
Stable - Barely start class, few references, bare coverage of salient points

Livery yard - About the same

Riding academy - Unreferenced two-line stub

Stable Master - Unreferenced stub

Paddock - Two line stub

Should also link to: Stable vices, Mounting block. Dana boomer (talk) 02:17, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that, guys. Montana, your edits are excellent, and Dana, those are good suggestions. So far, I think I have included all teh content (and more) that is relevant from Livery yard and Stable, so i think they could be redirected (of course if the secton ever gets to large, they can be split out again as daughter articles) and i'm sure the others can be worked in. For the naming of the main article, I kind of agree, so any suggestions welcome - would yard be any good from your point of view? I think the barn article is already pretty good, and far too wide a subject to focus on horses only. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 05:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Agree that barn is much wider than just horses, and doesn't really cover things like Riding academy. Before we do any redirecting, though, merge tags should probably be put on the relevant articles (and a summary of this conversation on their talk pages, possibly with a link here) and let to sit for at least a week. This way people who don't watchlist Montana's page will have a chance to know what we're contemplating and give their thoughts. It is quite possible that no one will notice/care, but we should at least give them that chance. Dana boomer (talk) 12:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Probably not stable vices, as that is more a behavior/medical issue than management. But see also horse management. We also have pen (enclosure) and stuff like paddock, where the US and UK terms have widely varying meanings. "Yard" would not work at all because in US English, that's what your kids play in. We might be stuck with equestrian facility, much as I loathe the title, I can't think of one better. Montanabw^(talk) 21:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I wasn't suggesting merging the vices article, just making sure there are cross-links between the two. Same for mounting block. Horse management redirects to horse care at the moment, and I don't think all of this information is really a "management" or a "care" topic so much as it is a facility or a location topic. Also agree that yard is not a good one - a "yard" is definitely a lawn (though lawn brings to mind more manicuring and less random things scattered around) in my book. Dana boomer (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

LOL! I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything worse than horse lingo for the huge differences between US and UK English. Montanabw^(talk) 21:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I think you might be right! OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 04:52, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Any comments welcome! (including any possible names for this new, merged article) OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 10:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Owain, great work trying to organize this "herding cats" project! Should we post a heads up at WPEQ for more comment? My personal thoughts are that I 100% favor the merge of riding academy for now, at least until someone wants to expand that concept. I am unsure what to do with paddock because it has a DRAMATICALLY different meaning in Australia (equivalent to pasture in the USA, basically) and it is sometimes used to house sheep and cattle there, which makes it unsuitable for a merge to this article, I think. My suspicion is that an expansion of that article is the better solution. As for stable, I have mixed feelings there, too, as it is also used to house animals other than horses. (think, for example, where Jesus was born, as in the song The Friendly Beasts, OMG, we could be messing with Christmas! Horrors!) We might need to just make it a dab or something. Or "teach the controversy." The Livery yard article is quite problematic, as the historic concept of horses for rent has a long context and is a staple of the American Old West. I think that one may need to have the modern stuff put here and the historic material retained there with a good dab to this article. Montanabw^(talk) 03:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, happy for this to be central, with daughter articles where appropriate, but at the moment, the articles don't stand up on their own. For stables, I would say that it is not common usage in BrE to stable anything other than a horse, cattle and the like are kept in sheds or barns, never in stables (although the building itself might be identical!). Livery yards go back far beyond the old west (although reading the article you wouldn't believe it), so any particularly relevant information should probably be in an article specific to the United States (Horse livery in the United States or some such). In relation to paddock, i would say that was a small area of grass for grazing, normally close to the stables. It would be used for restricted turn out (a couple of hours a day) or light exercise on grass. Unlike the article, it would never have a surface. If it was surfaced, it would be a school, or sand school. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 09:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, yet more linguistic issues. In the USA (where, by the way, we have more horses than the UK or AU- grin) we don't call riding areas a "school" we call them an "arena" or "pen." Your definition of a paddock isn't too far from mine, but it's quite different from the Australian version. As for stable -- see this Google search -- I don't know about you, but I am NOT going to screw with the Christmas story! LOL! Here's my thoughts: checking the glossary and our own sources, CAN we come up with a list of "generic" terms (as was done with "veterinary physician" for all this stuff? "Horse buildings" "Horse turnout areas" "horse grazing areas", etc.. and do the headers that way, opening each section with a brief list of magic words, then explaining the thing itself. Montanabw^(talk) 19:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

UK Terms

Sorry for the delay in getting over here (health issues - d'oh!)

Here in the UK, we only ever use the word "barn" to mean an actual building. "Yard" is the term most commonly used to cover the generic equestrian establishment, so we would have (for example) private yard, dressage yard, competition yard, livery yard, show-jumping yard, and so on. (In the UK, kids don't play in the yard, they play in the garden. And The Yard, capitalised, is slang for the Police centre at Scotland Yard.)

Establishments open to the public are generally called "stables" or "centres": the traditional "riding stables", frequently a smallish place, or the more modern-sounding "equestrian centre". Having said that, see Ford Farm Stables, which retains its old name from when it was a small establishment, but now has all sorts of mega-facilities.

Within a "yard" (generic term), we may have any, some or all of the following:

barn (which may be for storage of hay, straw, etc. or be buildings with internal stabling).
Stable, box or loosebox; all used interchangeably to mean housing for an individual horse, with its own door, so that the horse is kept loose inside; these can be either in rows or courtyards outdoors, or inside a barn.
stall; an open-backed area where horses are kept tied (old-fashioned, but some still exist).\; in cities, stalls were generally part of a mews
school and arena are used interchangeably (indoor school/indoor arena), etc.
pen almost always means a round pen - we don't generally use the term
paddock is a smallish grazing area, on the whole (an acre or less is a rough guide)
field is a larger grazing area

Hope this is helpful!

Being a Brit, I have to point out that all the stabling terms are far more traditional than anything the US has to offer - we had mewses, stables, stalls, barns and stable yards before the US even had domesticated horses ... :D Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:02, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the term loosebox was by definition somewhere where multiple horses were kept together. Ϣere SpielChequers 16:36, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nah. It's where a horse is kept loose, as opposed to tied up (in a UK-type stall / tie-stall). Loose horses are (in the UK) sometimes kept together in barns. Not to be confused with US-type barns ... ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 21:32, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK I'm no expert but the only time I've encountered the term was in reference to the coronation of Edward VII and the area of the Abbey where Lily Langtry and others sat. Ϣere SpielChequers 16:22, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

US terms

You might be first, but we have more horses! LOL! And aren't "mews" the noises kittens make? And if our kids play in the garden, they are gonna get whupped for trampling on the flowers and vegetables! (evil grin) Montanabw^(talk) 01:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But seriously, where we don't have huge differences (arena, field), let's use those forms. Where a word has two meanings so different as to create utter confusion, it would be good to come up with something to avoid that confusion, especially amongst the 12 year old girls who like to read about horses on wikipedia (For example, "stable" singular and probably "yard"). "Stables" plural seems to have the same meaning -- a place where a bunch of horses are kept inside...(?) In the US, there are also "Equestrian Centers" but more often called "Stables" here as well, both for tradition and to sound more friendly and personable or traditional. Here, "school" for horses (as opposed to people) is mostly used a verb, definitely not an arena... maybe a "schooling area" at most. (the view being, I think, that horses technically should be "schooled" everywhere any time they are under human discipline) I'm less worried about terms that are different but have no confusing synonyms: Stuff like "loose box/box stall" is just a "race to the courthouse" per the WP UK/US English rules, as far as I'm concerned (As cattle crush and cattle grid beat out cattle stock and cattle guard, but halter beat out headcollar in the opposite direction). Montanabw^(talk) 01:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "paddock" issue is probably the thorniest, as I think US and UK meanings are about the same, but the Aussies have a dramatically different meaning. I personally would be happy to avoid the use of the word "pen" as it's kind of a new thing here, the NH and cowboy crowd are trying to make it common lingo, but when I was a kid, a "pen" was for other livestock, especially little ones like goats and sheep. Montanabw^(talk) 01:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hah! But do you have more horses per acre of land mass? We're only a dinky little place! "Yard" is an abbreviation of "stable yard" (cf. farmyard). The use of school for arena goes back to "riding school" - a place where riders had lessons ("went to school"), as much as - and probably before - a place for horses to be schooled. The UK "garden" has lawns / mud-patches for the most part, with (maybe) an assortment of flower beds around the perimeter. Also kids' toys in varying stages of disintegration, home-made show jumps (bamboo poles on chairs etc.), assorted household pets, and very few vegetables. Other than around farmhouses, most people who want to grow veg. do so on allotments. Because if they were grown in the garden, they would fall victim to the kids ... and dogs ... And, yes, pens were all originally for sheep, goats, rabbits, and so on - we're only got horsey-type pens since the introduction of the round pen. I think things like paddock, field, etc. could come under the umbrella of grazing, with a brief covering of differences in international naming of same, perhaps?

Oh, yes (me waffling some more) - our indoor and outdoor "schools" only started being called "arenas" once they began to be used for competition purposes. In a private yard, they're more likely to be called "manèges" than arenas. (And, horribly, often mis-spelled / misunderstood as "ménage" by the illiterate, which always makes me cringe! It's not a bloody household, it's a place for managing!) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:53, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, sounds like an American "yard" to me, especially the back yard (out of sight of the street!) I believe that I have previously mentioned that Mark Twain called us a people separated by a common language! I suspect your "garden" evolved into our "yard" due to the same necessity of a place to corral said children's toys, pets, etc., only on a larger scale. Usually our "gardens" are either fenced to keep said critters (referencing both pets and children) out, or else we just yell "get out of the garden" a lot!!! Montanabw^(talk) 03:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As for the serious stuff, do you ever just call a riding area a "ring?" Here, there is something of an east/west split in regional uses, but "arena" or "ring" is common, though "schooling arena/ring/pen" is used. The dressage crowd might say "manège" but everyone else thinks they are super stuck up snobs when they do so! Maybe we should think about the process in Wikipedia:Manual_of_style#National_varieties_of_English and discuss where we can find commonality first, then and perhaps add a bit at American and British English differences or do a new article with a chart like the one in Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(spelling) for horse stuff, the Glossary is pretty good about listing both varieties, but maybe we should consider a chart. You realize of course, that we, the anal-retentive, have just hijacked this whole topic! Montanabw^(talk) 03:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's hijacking, as the article will only be useful if we get to the bottom of it. For 'ring', it is really only used in the very specific sense of a competition arena. For example, at a show in a very large arena, competitors may warm up and be marshalled at one end, but would only enter the ring for a few minutes to compete. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 05:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, that's the only time we use "ring" over here - strictly for competitions. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 06:29, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit looser here, but "ring" usually implies the prefix "show". Is "arena" sufficiently universal as an enclosed place to ride horses, for whatever purpose? Montanabw^(talk) 00:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Arena works for me. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 09:11, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Me, too. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merges?

Hi guys - Just a reminder that we currently have merge tags on Stable, Livery yard and Riding academy for possible merges here. Also a merge tag on Paddock, although there needs to be discussion on whether to merge it here or to Pasture or Pen (enclosure). No-one has made any objections to the merges on the talk pages of those articles, but I wanted to bring it here for final discussion and action. Dana boomer (talk) 21:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we can solve the Paddock one due to the different meanings in different places, I think that tag should go. I wish we had a better article title here but I'm at a loss for what it might be; we also have barn. stall, etc... My brain is too fried with all the holiday nuttiness to think clearly about this problem. Montanabw^(talk) 06:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, i wanted to sort this out the other week, but been a bit busy IRL! I'm still in favour of all the merges, and we can work on the title of this page later! OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 09:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Livery yard was the rental car/parking garage of yesteryear. And that time period lasted for centuries, if not millennia. I would like to see that article preserved. I will suspend judgment on whether the rest can be logically merged into that article or not. Student7 (talk) 20:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]