Talk:Eleftherios Venizelos/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Sorry, this must be deleted after you read it.

WRONG, crete was never conquered by the turks, there's a mistake ! Crete rebelled against the turks, and if you don't bilieve that, see the greek flags article, and see the rebel cretan flag, they had their own. Chania and crete was never a part of Turkey. (I know i put wrong the commment, but im a n00b + i don't really know how do i make pages... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Επιστήμων (talk • contribs) 14:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

comments

I know nothing about this guy, but a text I have at home lists him as Venizelos, that is the name of the airport in Athens for which we have an article (Eleftherios Venizelos Airport), and he is listed as Venizelos in the List of Prime Ministers of Greece. Should this be redirected? Danny 00:08, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

In modern Greek the letter beta is pronounced like a V, instead of a B, if that helps. I'm not sure what to do with the transliteration, a Greek person would be able to give you a better answer than my piece of trivia :) Adam Bishop 00:11, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That's right. I'm sorry but it's the most common mistake of Greeks transliterating Greek Names to English. You can see that there is a third translitaration (wrong also) as Eleutherios Benizelos. My apologies... You are welcome to cover my mistakes. :-)

No probs. That's why this is a team effort. By the way, thanks for a great article! Danny 12:01, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

This was on Pages needing attention, so I made some edits for language. I was not intending to make any changes to the substance of the article. If I have made any factual errors in the process, feel free to fix them and curse me Dukeofomnium 15:23, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't the part about the Balkan Wars be at its own section? it's a colossal event for Greece as its land was roughly doubled and its probably Venizelos' biggest achievement

POV?

Venizelos was a very controversial character in his life, and the use of the word "Thessaloniki" to describe a city then known as Salonika is very racist -- perhaps ten percent of its population was Greek in 1916.Scott Adler 10:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thessaloniki is the original name of the city moron.1916 was 3 years after the liberation of the city so it was also the official name back then.And statistics of this particular era say that even in 1912 along with 40% of Jews there were 30% Greeks 25% Muslims and 5% Bulgarians.

OK, the issue about Thessaloniki is resolved, but the POV issue remains. The article lacks the essential Neutral Point Of View quality and is a hagiography of Venizelos' life. Maybe this approach is acceptable for the greek Wikipedia, which is known for its lack of NPOV, but not acceptable for the English Wikipedia. 212.70.216.245 (talk) 14:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Please note that I haven't finished editing this article... I am afraid I am still busy in real life, but I do intent to add some more things.

• The major criticism against Venizelos was the Asia Minor Disaster, which is still not well written/expanded in the article... but it will be done soon (i hope)
• Other (some of them are negative) effects due to Venizelos will be in the Legacy section which still does not exist... but as I said I will include it
• I am not sure what you mean lack of NPOV? Also, "hagiography"? Can you be more specific? Please remember that this article is still incomplete for an upgrade, but if you any specific suggestions/recommendations please add them... A.Cython (talk) 22:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Reorganising the article

I understand that this article is in the early stages, and I would like to contribute since he (Venizelos) is a very important figure in the (Modern) Greek history. However, I am relatively new to wikipedia so if I make any mistakes in the style of writing etc please let me know...

Status & TODO

• • Early Years
  • Political Career in Crete
    • Cretan Uprising
    • Autonomous Crete (More citations needed)
    • Revolution of Theriso (Citations needed)
  • Political Career in Greece
    • Goudi military revolution of 1909 (Citations needed)
    • Venizelos' Reforms in Economy, Constitution, Education etc etc
    • The Balkan Wars
      • Background
      • Balkan League (Citations needed)
      • First Balkan War
      • Second Balkan War (More citations needed)
    • World War I
      • Dispute over Greece's role in World War I
      • National Schism (More citations needed)
      • Greece joins World War I (Citations needed) (rewrite in order to illustrate Venizelos' actions)
      • Conclusion of World War I & Treaty of Sèvres
    • 1920 electoral defeat and withdrawal from politics
    • Return to power in 1928 and subsequent exile
  • Legacy, etc

• Add an infobox

The current status of the article is: that it has been expanded enough for a review... (i think now it belongs to the B--class)

But still there is space for improvements... the article focuses too much on the wars, so expansion on the constitutional and economic reforms are needed, and at the end, a section summarizing Venizelos' achievements.

If you have any comments or suggestions please post them. A.Cython (talk) 22:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Perfect, now the article is B-class :D ... so now plan of action for a A-class article:

• write a paragraph about the reforms prior the Balkan Wars
• reorganizing the references i.e. specify the pages from the books
• make sure everything in the text is properly cited, add more references if found
• re-write certain parts of the text and emphasize on Venizelos' perspective e.g. communication with the Admirals at the Cretan Revolt
• write a section of his Legacy (achievements + criticism).

A.Cython (talk) 16:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Name

Is that his real name? Is "freedom" a popular name in Greece? BalkanFever 05:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes that is his name, like most names in greek this name also has a meaning which is a man who is free. If this seems strange to you then here are two examples:

• George comes from the greek Γιώργος which comes from γεωργός which means farmer
• Alexander comes from the greek Αλέξανδρος which means protector of man

Now, is it popular? Well it is not the most popular, but it is not rare or uncommon either. I hope this answers your question...A.Cython (talk) 14:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, I want to state my doubts I am having since I started re-writing this article about what is the proper way to write his full name i.e. Elefthérios Venizélos or Eleftherios Kyriakos Venizelos? For example Britanica (see here) uses the last one and in fact they do not use transliteration i.e. Eleuthérios Kyriakos Venizélos ... but I am not sure if having Kyriakos is proper. The thing is, Greeks have one name and one surname and it is very rare to have two names or more. But it is possible to have two people with the same name and surname, then in that case you look at the father's name (Venizélos' father's name was Kyriakos) in other words it is Elefthérios Venizélos of Kyriakos. But things get complicated because Greeks follows an old tradition (even today), which is that the parents give to their children names of parents' fathers/mothers' names so it is no surprise that Elefterios Venizelos' first child was named Kyriakos! So as you can see it is weird to have a name (Kyriakos) for grandfather, father and son and not to mention that in Greece if not everybody then most people use the name with-out Kyriakos.

So... it would be great if someone could add his/her opinion. Thanks in advance!A.Cython (talk) 20:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You could say "Eleftherios Venizelos, also known as Eleftherios Kyriakos Venizelos..." for the intro. Although, if, in the sources or in scholarship, "Kyriakos" is hardly used, then it probably isn't needed. With the transliteration, I'm not sure, because if you look at Greece you'll see the motto and anthem in the infobox both use different systems (!?). BalkanFever 22:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

His full name should be given as Eleftherios Kyriakou Venizelos; as you rightly say, Cython, the middle name is his father's name. The traditional Greek way is to include the father's name, in the middle place, in the genitive case (thus ending -ou). The only good method, I think, is to transfer the whole thing straight into English.

It is possible to add accents in English transliterations of Greek names, but it isn't usual. Anyone who wants to know where the stress falls can look at the name in Greek letters.

Yes, there are lots of different ways to transliterate Greek into English. Luckily, with this particular name, the variations are not too big. "Eleutherios" is very old-fashioned, because the pronunciation is definitely "Eleftherios" and it's been that way for a long time. Andrew Dalby 10:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I have now edited the text in the way that I suggested. I kept the accents just once where his full name is given, and once in the infobox, so that anyone can see where the stress falls. Elsewhere, I aimed to take the accents out (I might have missed some?) Books about him in English, like the one by Kitromilides, don't use accents. Andrew Dalby 10:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that I will do the trick :D Thanks for your input to both Andrew Dalby and BalkanFever.-- A.Cython (talk) 10:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Where did he die?

The infobox says that he died at the Ritz. But I understood from reading his wife's memoir that he died at their apartment (22 rue Beaujon). I can't check that source right now, and I could have made a false assumption perhaps; but it seems to be confirmed by Manolikakis's book Ελευθέριος Βενιζέλος, η αγνώστη ζώη του (1985), which describes him as being at home immediately before he had his stroke. He would hardly have been moved to the hotel afterwards. So, is there really evidence that he was at the hotel? Does anyone know? Andrew Dalby 12:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

That is a good point. At the National Research Institute Eleftherios Venizelos say that he died at his house, but other (secondary) sources either say at the hotel or just Paris. I haven't found any other source to confirm that he died at his house. I will try to check the source that you have provided, but is it possible to provide also the page(s) that menttion this? Most likely, I will use your source and the site, which is dedicated to Venizelos, as references that the final place of death was at his house. A.Cython (talk) 12:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I have the Manolikakis book in front of me, and it definitely describes him as being at the apartment with Helena on 12 March when he wrote his last letter, to Alexandros Zannas, and then had a stroke immediately afterwards. You could cite it: Giannis Manolikakis, Eleftherios Venizelos: i agnosti zoi tou (Athens, 1985) pp. 18-22. This is then confirmed by Helena's book, which describes the stroke and how she put him to bed and called doctors, and that he died three days later without having fully regained consciousness. You could cite this as: Hélène Veniselos, A l'ombre de Veniselos (Paris, 1955). I can't give you the page numbers. It's clear from both books that he died at home.

Incidentally, I changed the spelling of the address from rue Beanjon (which you might have got from the Foundation website) to rue Beaujon. Greek websites are not good on French spelling! Andrew Dalby 13:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Great, i made the changes. Please have a look (and please do not hesitate to improve my terrible English!) and let me know if it is ok now. Also, if you spot any other inconsistencies please bring them forward. A.Cython (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

One more question, which date does the book says he died? At info box we have 18th March. A.Cython (talk) 14:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Well spotted! Ignore my "three days" above, that was my mistake. The last date in the anecdotes in the Manolikakis book is the 12th, when he was writing that last letter. It is clear from Helena's book that he had the stroke on the 13th; he died on the 18th, as the article rightly says. Andrew Dalby 14:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Great! A.Cython (talk) 14:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)