Talk:El Shorouk Academy

File:8531269.jpg Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:8531269.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests June 2011 What should I do?
	A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 15:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Student protests

There seems to be some edit warring about including content from this news report, but edit summaries are not the best place to have discussions about complicated content. A news article about an event is not typically considered a WP:PRIMARY source (although they sometimes can be depending on context). News outlets are a central part of Wikipedia, so removing something just because it's cited to a newspaper is never going to work. Is there some other reason to consider Daily News Egypt unreliable? At a glance it looks fine to me. I see no reason to think that these protests didn't happen. Whether they should be mentioned in the article is worth discussing, but this shouldn't be dismissed just because of the source. Grayfell (talk) 00:49, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Though the event was a onetime event, I don't believe its good to remove from an article so short. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 01:04, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

As a possible additional reference for this, I *think* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltB0GHmuWQU is a News Television show with a segment aboutabout what happened. But I don't speak or read Arabic. :( Would bringing in a Wikipedian who speaks/reads arabic be useful?Naraht (talk) 01:05, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Good idea. Although English sources are more convenient (for the English-language Wikipedia) reliable Arabic sources would be helpful. Lacking any other information at all, I would mildly side with removing the incident as lacking in long-term significance, but I'm not going to do that without more context. Saying the protest was attended by 500 students would be a lot more informative if the article said how many students the school has, for example. Judging WP:DUE involves the whole picture. Grayfell (talk) 01:11, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I was looking for more news articles about this academy, and I couldn't find anything else other than what Mohamed1900q keeps removing. It'd be nice to have those Arabic links translated to English. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 01:25, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

As I noted in my edit summary, primary sources, such as news reports, have no sense of historic significance: you need to find a secondary source that's not merely reporting the latest news. Encyclopedias rely on secondary sources, documents produced well after the event in question, to decide what's significant. Just-happened events reported in a newspaper may be important in the long run, or they may not be, but deciding that something reported in a primary source will be long-term significant, without depending on secondary sources, is a kind of any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. I hope this is obvious, but no source is reliable for a future event; a news report cannot reliably claim that its subject will become important in the future, so we rely on secondary sources because the decision that an event is long-term important has already been made. Nyttend (talk) 00:23, 11 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohamed1900q (talk • contribs)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars

Wikipedia has no firm rules: Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, but they are not carved in stone; their content and interpretation can evolve over time. The principles and spirit matter more than literal wording, and sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making exceptions. Be bold but not reckless in updating articles. And do not agonize over making mistakes: every past version of a page is saved, so mistakes can be easily corrected.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia

Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view--Mohamed1900q (talk) 18:24, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, we already know that. What does that have to do with the protests? Grayfell (talk) 18:46, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

While Wikipedia is different from Wikinews, by Mohamed1900q's standard, Wikipedia would have no significant information on either Brexit, EgyptAir Flight 804 or the United States presidential election, 2016. (And probably not on United States presidential election, 2012 either.)Naraht (talk) 19:05, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

this article about academy,there are students and doctors--Mohamed1900q (talk) 20:16, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm unclear on what you mean here.Naraht (talk) 21:45, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

what`s the problem now,this is article and there are newspaper --Mohamed1900q (talk) 23:47, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

this article about education not for Political events--Mohamed1900q (talk) 23:51, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles sometimes include things from newspapers. This article can be about both education and political events. Grayfell (talk) 01:24, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles also include vandalism and lots of other things. Secondary coverage from newspapers is acceptable, but not primary coverage as seen here. Find retrospective coverage from a reliable newspaper, and that will be fine, but news coverage from a newspaper needs to be excised ruthlessly. If you want to write about words, rather than about the concepts to which they refer, you go to Wiktionary, and if you want to write about newsy topics, rather than about things with secondary coverage, you go to Wikinews. Neither one belongs here. Nyttend (talk) 04:01, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't really agree that this is unambiguously primary, certainly not from a journalistic standpoint. We could debate what that means, but that's a distraction. WP:PRIMARY does allow the use of such sources for factual statements without interpretation. I agree that brief contemporary news articles (however they're classified) are very poor for establishing due weight, and I still don't think this belongs in the article, but I think this source is usable if we decide that it does. As I said, if we had any other sources about this, or about the school in general, it would be simple. WP:DUE mentions "proportion", but we have basically nothing to balance this against. Right now, this is the most prominent thing we know about this school, which is the real problem. Grayfell (talk) 04:54, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

this academy is local in egypt not international academy--Mohamed1900q (talk) 07:22, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

are is good for people to see protests in article speak about education--Mohamed1900q (talk) 07:24, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

i dont think political event is make sense for article speak about education--Mohamed1900q (talk) 07:26, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

The only beneficiary of this are the competitors--Mohamed1900q (talk) 07:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

@Mohamed1900q: enough - you've had this explained to you multiple times above. We're not going to remove something just because it paints the article subject in a negative light. Now, if you have a policy based reason as to remove it, please state your case -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 07:30, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

ok no problem ,thanks for ur add this event,and i promise u any article,i will add any news on it (the bad thing) from any newspaper even if this newspaper say invalid thing and even if this newspaper dont have Reliable sources--Mohamed1900q (talk) 07:53, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Mohamed1900q: Just to clarify, because you've not got your own way, you're going to find other articles and add "invalid thing" to them? I suggest you grow up -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 08:03, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

i will add bad bad bad information to articles from any newspaper ,even if this newspaper say invalid thing and even if this newspaper dont have Reliable sources,u know this is best thing to let people see any information valid or invalid this is not my story, the story in newspaper--Mohamed1900q (talk) 08:10, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

thanks--Mohamed1900q (talk) 08:11, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

i just delete information not clear for people and i try to discuss the problem to let people understand ,ok now delete info is appear , no problem--Mohamed1900q (talk) 08:37, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

so i promise people to add bad information from any newspaper or any website,even if this newspaper or website say invalid thing and even if this newspaper or website don't have Reliable sources,people know this is best thing to let people see any information valid or invalid this is not my story, the story in newspaper or website,thanks--Mohamed1900q (talk) 08:37, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Mohamed1900q, Wikipedia is no censored per WP:CENSOR, However, Wikipedia is not a website to do anything you want or be disruptive. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 21:07, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

u answer urself,so are this event have trust reference to make sure it`s ok,or just event occur in any place--Mohamed1900q (talk) 10:43, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a specific reason that you believe that either Daily News Egypt is an unreliable source, or specifically so in this case?Naraht (talk) 13:57, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

because there are report from academy sayed this news wrong reference:https://web.archive.org/web/20130508020948/http://www.sha.edu.eg/ExplainationStmt.aspx --Mohamed1900q (talk) 16:04, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

translation : Statement from El Shorouk Academy

About the reality of the death of the student / Mohamed Mamdouh Toukhy Department of Architecture at the Higher Institute of Engineering

Students suffering from liquidity in the blood and suffered a severe cerebral hemorrhage

While expressing its family Academy Sunrise expressed deep grief and sorrow, and one for the death of my dearest sons, student Mohammed Mamdouh Toukhy Department of Architecture at the Higher Institute of Engineering, the Academy and the family which extend its sincere condolences to the family of the deceased, they would like to clarify a number of special conditions and circumstances that accompanied the death of facts students since its inception until his move to the higher ranks: -

- According to the death certificate issued by the International Medical Center at dawn last Thursday, the student was suffering from severe bleeding in the brain, at the same time, the academy has not received to date from the medical center or from Noor Sunrise Hospital in which he received treatment, any medical reports detailed status of students since its inception.

- God's mercy upon the student was suffering from a liquidity shortage in the blood and in blood platelets, which prevented the regularity in the study, and found that he exceeded the absence of the prescribed percentage (25%) and sent him the attention of academic administration of receipt on the 24th of April 2013.

- Did not disclose the student and his family the truth about the condition which he suffers, and caused his absence from the audience of the Institute, and therefore did not have the medical department available any records to the pathological process of the student, it was possible to make it easier for the medical department to deal with the student in the event of a health problem .

- On Monday 29 April was attended by students of the academy after an absence of two weeks of the study, during the second lecture attendance suffered a fainting state of spasm and colleagues brought him to the clinic in the same building.

- Handled the medical clinic of the Academy with student status as soon as possible, where a student has entered the clinic in the eleventh and forty five minutes time, in case of fatigue and vomiting and was giving him necessary for his medicine, namely: Bermbran to stop vomiting and Furtakorten to regulate blood pressure on the instructions Academy doctor.

- The transfer of a student to light, Sunrise Hospital, one of the hospitals with the contractor and the closest to the Academy have been logged on the twelfth hour and forty-five minutes, and the hospital has dealt with his condition and was admitted to intensive care.

- The light of Sunrise Hospital transfer student in an ambulance equipped and accompanied by a specialist doctor to the International Medical Center for a CT scan on the brain and stomach.

- Academic administration conducted an investigation to determine the academic performance of doctors and nurses, and will announce the results of the case of a medical report from Sunrise Hospital and Noor International Medical Center.

- Todd Academy explain this full facts, and allow all forms of peaceful expression of opinion, also welcomes a dialogue with members of the Students' Union and representatives of the students to find out all the details and information about the incident painful.

- El Shorouk Academy provide medical care to its students through three internal clinics for first aid, they also contracted with several major hospitals including Noor Sunrise Sunrise Hospital in the city center and the International Medical and Hospital Maadi Hospital and Arab Contractors.

Academy of Management

this report translation from arabic to english.--Mohamed1900q (talk) 16:12, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

another reference from hospital: https://web.archive.org/web/20130515020043/http://www.sha.edu.eg/files/HospitalReport.pdf --Mohamed1900q (talk) 16:19, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

the first reference is explain the second reference--Mohamed1900q (talk) 16:25, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

so after this reference from academy and hospital say this news invalid,so are this news from this newspaper is good to be here?--Mohamed1900q (talk) 16:28, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

This is an example of why Google Translate should NOT be used for complicated content. Parts of this are almost word salad, but I don't see anything here that says protests didn't take place. The specific details of why they were protesting may be contested by the school, but the protest happened. Including the schools response is an option, but the translation would have to be better. Grayfell (talk) 21:35, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

the problem academy sayed academy doctors diagnosed him and newspaper sayed academy doctors misdiagnosed him--Mohamed1900q (talk) 06:31, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

in any case most of translation is valid and i check it,little words not translated well but translation is ok--Mohamed1900q (talk) 06:34, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

from reference:- arabic: - فى يوم الاثنين 29 من ابريل حضر الطالب للاكاديمية بعد غياب اسبوعين عن الدراسة, وفى اثناء حضوره المحاضرة الثانية تعرض لاغماء وحالة تشنج وقام زملائه بنقله الى العيادة الطبية الموجودة فى نفس المبنى.

- تعاملت العيادة الطبية للاكاديمية مع حالة الطالب فى اسرع وقت ممكن حيث كان الطالب قد دخل العيادة فى الساعة الحادية عشرة وخمسة واربعين دقيقة , فى حالة اعياء وقىء وجرى اعطائه الادوية اللازمة لحالته وهى : برمبران لايقاف القىء وفورتاكورتين لتنظيم ضغط الدم بناء على تعليمات طبيب الاكاديمية. english: On Monday 29 April was attended by students of the academy after an absence of two weeks of the study, during the second lecture attendance suffered a fainting state of spasm and colleagues brought him to the clinic in the same building.

- Handled the medical clinic of the Academy with student status as soon as possible, where a student has entered the clinic in the eleventh and forty five minutes time, in case of fatigue and vomiting and was giving him necessary for his medicine, namely: Bermbran to stop vomiting and Furtakorten to regulate blood pressure on the instructions Academy doctor.

so academy doctors diagnosed him not like newspaper sayed--Mohamed1900q (talk) 06:40, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

any news--Mohamed1900q (talk) 14:42, 24 July 2016 (UTC)