Talk:Egoz Unit

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Abenaim.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:17, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Please avoid gratuitous edit-warring

Swatjester, hi.

1. Bulk reverts are prohibited. That alone should suffice.
2. What name change do you mean? Pls try to explain.
3. Not a iota of OR, all sourced.

Please don't go into gratuitous edit-warring. Thanks. Arminden (talk) 18:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

In the referenced source:

"Cpt. XY, a team commander in the Egoz Commando Unit...

Cpt. XY, of the Yahalom Combat Engineering Unit...

Sgt. First Class XY, 22, of the Egoz Commando Unit...

Sgt. First Class XY, of the Egoz Commando Unit...

Sgt. First Class XY, of the Egoz Commando Unit...

Staff Sgt. XY, of the Golani Brigade’s reconnaissance unit...

Staff Sgt. XY, of the Golani Brigade’s reconnaissance unit...

The Egoz commandos were all killed during a gun battle with Hezbollah operatives in a southern Lebanon village, along with Cpt. Eitan Itzhak Oster, whose death was announced earlier."

Pls count. Arminden (talk) 18:26, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Arminden, if you're trying to change the name and founding date of the Egoz Unit as you did here in the infobox changing its predecessor name to Sayeret Egoz and changing the founding date, you'll need to provide a source for that claim. You have not established that the 1956 Sayeret Egoz is the same unit as the current Egoz Unit, nor is that information sourced in the article body; thus it is inappropriate to include in the infobox. You'll also need a source for changing it's role from guerilla warfare to anti-guerilla. Again, you provided no sources or references for this in either your initial edit, or your revert and that material lacks an in-line reference already. This is a core policy per WP:RS and WP:V. Additionally, the original claim was that there were eight casualties from Egoz Unit -- what you've provided above does not support that claim; it shows 5 casualties from Egoz Unit, one from Yahalom, and two from Sayeret Golani. So whatever "source" you're drawing that from does not actually support the claim you're including; thus it is also WP:OR and fails WP:V. In fact, that source specifically states that the non-Egoz soldiers were killed in a separate incident. ("The two soldiers of the Golani recon unit were killed in a separate incident, in which another soldier was seriously wounded."). So that also needs to be corrected as being unsupported by a source. Reverting unsourced original research is not "edit warring" -- a single revert is never edit warring. There is no prohibition against "bulk reverts." Never has been. Please refrain from casting WP:ASPERSIONS in the future and try to abide by Wikipedia policy in the future, without gaslighting our policies. I will ask you to self-revert your changes. It's frankly shocking and quite concerning that an editor with 50,000 edits needs core policies explained to them like this, in a contentious topic area. Thanks. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 18:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry, but again, I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

1. The Times of Israel source is clear, person by person. 2 commissioned officers + 3 UCO, 5 young lads in total. Those from Egoz concern us, not the Golani casualties. The press only releases names & other details once the family has been informed, but this ref has it all.
2. I didn't change the name of the article. I added into the infobox what's already contained in the article ("predecessor"). Not an iota more. The term Sayeret was in the lead when I arrived on this page, and much more prominently; it was actually me who asked the Qs and found the As, based part on refs and part on heWiki. True, you can remove Sayeret Egoz from the lead; I didn't add it, and I didn't remove it, I just pushed it further down. Pls read or search through the article and you'll see the inf, and through the edit hist. and you'll see the evolution.

You're using a lot of Wikispeak & talk of gaslighting - another fancy word. I just keep it simple.

Bulk-reverting is not OK, that's basic. None of that ballast serves anyone, and it took a lot of effort to sieve it out, bit by bit. Throwing it all back in is as much an - aspersion? - as anything I have said, it's an "eat it" kind of gesture.

I'm sure that once you look at this carefully you'll agree. Have a great rest of the day, Arminden (talk) 19:31, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The information you added into the infobox was not sourced, either in your edit, or in the body of the article. Yes, there is text in the body of the article, but it is all unsourced; as such we cannot use it for the claim. That is the information that I'm pointing out is unsourced -- the article does not contain a source that says the 1956 Sayeret Egoz is a predecessor of 2024 Egoz Unit. Including that either in the infobox, or the article body, is synthesis and original research. So is putting in speculation about the founding date such as (1956–?. I'll go ahead and remove that as you've agreed here that it can be removed.⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 20:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the portion from the body of the article claiming the unit was founded in 1956 as being unsourced; the portion in the infobox stating the founding date as 1956 still needs to be fixed (or sourced) but I cannot remove that until tomorrow due to 1RR brightline restrictions, unless Arminden removes it first.⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 20:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Swatjester. Thanks for not reverting the ref details as "colateral damage.

I don't get you. You have been around for a while, longer than me. Why do you misread written words? Because all I meant is the lead, where "Sayeret Egoz" used to be in the 1st sentence and I moved it further down etc., and THAT is even there a weak bit which can go if you wish so. Not in the body. And why do you rush to remove potentially useful material, instead of going through the normal motions - "citation needed" tag, pinging the editor who put it in, waiting for a while, doing your own research, and THEN, if it looks fishy (no reactions, no online sources), THEN you remove it? Unless it looks unrealistic, which here is not at all the case. And even then: If I have doubts, I park the material on the talk-page, where it can be more easily found and reintroduced once sources are found.

By default, on Israeli topics, you MUST check the Hebrew article too, using Google Translate. I have added the hatnote "Expand from Hebrew Wiki" to underlign the obvious. Nada. Yes, Hebrew Wiki has different sourcing standards, but they are living the topics and have full access to 100 times as many sources.

Unless your goal is to score points, rather than enrich the article and serve the user. Which can't posdibly be, because the latter is the ONLY goal worth spending time here for.

I did the Hebrew Wiki research and here is the result, after a superficial cleanup.

Egoz Unit (סיירת פיקודית)

at

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%90%D7%92%D7%95%D7%96

has

"In its first incarnation, it was established in 1956 under the name Sayeret Egoz as a command patrol of the Northern Command, and operated until the end of the Yom Kippur War in 1974."

Check the history and the list of commanders and you'll find: 1956-57 & 1963-74.

What Google Translate offers as 'command patrol' links to

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99%D7%AA

There you can read:

"The three command patrols were:

• Egoz (Nut) patrol under the Northern Command. Operated from 1956 to 1957 and from 1964 to 1973 (officially disbanded in 1974).
• Haruv (Carob) patrol under the Central Command. Operated from 1967 to 1973.
• Shaked (Almond) patrol under the Southern Command. Operated from 1955 to 1974 and from 1980 to 1983.:

And the 'Sayeret Egoz' itself at

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%90%D7%92%D7%95%D7%96

has:

"In 1995, the Egoz Unit was established in the Northern Command , named after the Egoz patrol."

So I will fix the years, add a "citation needed" tag, and put the material back in. Would you be so kind and ping the introducing editor? Thanks. I will remove the name Sayeret from the lead, because THAT might indeed be a confusion, and if you insist, the "predecessor" entry from the infobox as well. This is reasonable and user-friendly.

OK? Cheers, Arminden (talk) 21:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

You seem to have a very deep misunderstanding about how English Wikipedia policy works. WP:V and WP:RS are pillar, cornerstone policies of this project; they require all contested material to be sourced or be subject to removal. Period. This cannot be overridden by any local consensus on any other language project. Here on en.wp there is no requirement of going through adding a maintenance tag, pinging anyone, or waiting. That's not how the process works. You should know that by now after 50,000+ edits. This is clearly stated at the top of WP:V: Any material that needs an inline citation but does not have one may be removed. All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports[b] the contribution.[c]. Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports[b] the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. Going through those additional steps you mentioned is optional.

This is not Hebrew Wiki either. We are not bound by their standards, by their experiences, or their editorial decisions. It is irrelevant to anyone here whether they've "lived" anything -- you should be well aware that personal lived experiences are not acceptable sources on Wikipedia. Your statement "by default, on Israeli topics, you MUST check the Hebrew article too" is simply flat wrong (and in the case of the claim in question, it is not supported by any citations or references on that project's page either). That is not supported by any policy on this project. If you want to edit Hebrew Wiki, that's your prerogative, you're welcome to go edit there in whatever manner you choose. Here on this project, however, you will be expected to abide by this project's core policies on reliable sourcing and verifiability. Cheers. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 21:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the following unsourced material from the article: established in 1956 (Operation Kadesh) as a special forces unit or 'Command patrol' (as in: serving under one of Israel's three military region 'Commands'). Following a friendly-fire incident, Sayeret Egoz was disbanded in 1957, and then restored in 1963, when it continued to operate under the Northern Command. In 1974 it was disbanded once more due to manpower shortages following the Yom Kippur War.. You should not be porting over unsourced, citation-needed flagged material from another language into this project. The IDF reference you added does not mention Operation Kadesh, nor any other history of the original 1956 unit (which it clearly indicates is a different unit than the 1995 one). Please, just stop. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 22:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

You seem to have a very deep need to have the last word, no matter the damage to the user. Cn tags were created for a purpose. But bureaucratic stubborness is not something I nead to deal with outside my office hours. Be happy, kerp the toys. I'm out, at least until you are. Arminden (talk) 22:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Good. You shouldn't be anywhere near this article. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 22:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)