Talk:Ecstatic Peace Library

Irrelevant information

@Ashmusiclover222: In this edit, I have reverted what I consider to be a raft of irrelevant information.

• The biographical information about Thurston Moore is unnecessary as Wikipedia already has an article about him.
• The "Timeline" section lists what appears to be every book published by the company (which is arguably relevant, but excessive) and, curiously, recording projects by Moore that don't appear related at all to EPL.

Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not EPL's own website, and is not intended to promote the company or provide an exhaustive list of every event the company was ever involved in. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:18, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, the timeline is necessary to highlight all of the publications and events for EPL. Ashmusiclover222 (talk) 18:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmusiclover222: I disagree. EPL has a website for that purpose. If any of these books, publications, recordings, exhibitions, etc. are individually notable, they could be included, but an exhaustive list of everything EPL has ever done is excessive. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:10, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's excessive. A lot of bands, artists, and authors have all of their publications listed. Ashmusiclover222 (talk) 19:24, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmusiclover222: Bands, artists and authors, yes. Book publishers, generally not. Also, some of the material you've listed in the Timeline doesn't even relate to EPL; it's Thurston Moore's recordings (such as The Best Day or "Rebellion of Joy"). Further, the "full" biography of Moore is redundant, as we already have an entire article on him. Finally, your conflict of interest with this topic argues against you editing the article at all. (Your user talk page still lists your old username.) WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:56, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, I think it is relevant to list all of their publications, exhibits, and openings. Ashmusiclover222 (talk) 20:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

What we have here is a classic content dispute. I'm going to ask for a third opinion. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:11, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmusiclover222: I have requested a third opinion (see Wikipedia:Third opinion#Active disagreements). If anyone responds to the request, you or I are free to disagree with the third opinion given, at which point we'll have to escalate to higher levels of dispute resolution, but let's wait on that for now. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:16, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay. Well, I think it's important to document the nature of what EPL has published and done so far and the Wikipedia page they had before these changes was very sparse and had rather vague information that needed to be updated. Ashmusiclover222 (talk) 21:43, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmusiclover222: Please keep in mind that your conflict of interest may well cloud your judgment on what is important in this article. Your goal is to promote EPL, but that is not Wikipedia's goal. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:24, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, my goal is not to promote EPL, but to document their publication history so far to the public using sources Ashmusiclover222 (talk) 16:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmusiclover222: One of the reasons Wikipedia has a conflict of interest policy is due to the difficulty editors with a close connection to a subject have with differentiating between neutral prose and promotional content. While it might be meaningful to list the books that EPL has published, it is merely self-congratulatory to highlight all of the book signings and exhibitions that have occurred as part of the book releases, and to highlight the musical releases of EPL's principals that really have nothing to do with EPL (for example, Moore's The Best Day). WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 17:13, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

3O Response: I cannot help but assume user Ashmusiclover222 is not acting in good faith. The totality of the circumstances: the edits, the rationale, the name change... I find it difficult to AGF given these circumstances. With that in mind I have to push back against the need to add more content by way of product listing. There is no need to list any works published, much less all of them. Padillah (talk) 13:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Irrelevant information

@Ashmusiclover222: please explain what the following Timeline events have to do with Ecstatic Peace Library?

• 2018: The Death Archives: Mayhem 1984-94 by Jorn "Necrobutcher" Stubberu (ISBN 10: 1787601293; ISBN 13: 9781787601291) was released in paperback with a signing at Crypt of the Wizard on October 29, 2018.

  According to Google Books, this book was published by Omnibus Press. EPL doesn't appear to have anything to do with this publication.

• 2018: The Out of the Shadows: Spirits Night benefitting Manna Society (London Homeless Shelter) was hosted by Dr. Pam Hogg featuring CRX, cellist Adi Tal as the Bride of Frankenstein, and trio Thurston Moore, Stephen O’Malley of Sunn O))), and Necrobutcher of The True Mayhem at the Old Church in Stoke Newington, UK on October 31, 2018.

  This event does not appear to have anything to do with EPL. (Moore still performs as a musician, and presumably the things he does as a musician are separate from the things he does with EPL.)

• 2019: Luc Ferrari: Complete Works by Brunhild Ferrari, Thurston Moore, Jim O’Rourke, & David Grubbs

  Again, according to Google Books, this book was published by Omnibus Press. What is EPL's role in this?

• Stereo Spasms Festival: Luc Ferrari music program February 7-14, 2019 at Cafe OTO featuring Tania Chen, David Toop, Jon Leidecker, Thurston Moore, Erikm, Scanner, Xenia Pestova, Steve Beresford Ensemble, Apartment House, Aine O'Dwyer, Graham Lambkin, Ashley Paul, Matana Roberts, Yoni Silver, David Grubbs, Jim O'Rourke, and more

  This is not a book, but apparently a series of presentations.

• Publication: Flutter Echo: Living Within Sound by David Toop

  Again, published not by EPL, but by Omnibus Press. Yes, Moore is listed as editor, but again, not everything Moore does is relevant to EPL.

• Publication: Adrian Henri: I Want Everything To Happen! by Catherine Marcangeli, Jarvis Cocker & Byron Coley

  Another Omnibus Press publication. (Did EPL change their name at some point?)

References

You can see why I'm troubled by your editing here. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Dan, I’ve been collecting EPL releases recently, and The Death Archives, Luc Ferrari, Flutter Echo and Adrian Henri are all, in fact, published by EPL. Omnibus we’re the distributors not the publishers. AssumingRobin09 (talk) 12:01, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@AssumingRobin09: Your personal collection does not represent a reliable source, nor does the fact that EPL may or may not have published these works mean that they need to be listed in the article. A publisher's article might list its notable publications, or publications that are significant to the history of the publisher (such as their debut publication) but it need not list every publication, especially if the works are so obscure that Google books can't even get the publisher correct in their listings. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:11, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmusiclover222: I have just worked through the process of checking many of the citations, and have marked several of the book publication claims as dubious, since they appear to have been published by Omnibus Press rather than EPL. This is further reason why I am troubled by your editing here. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:18, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

These are all EPL relevant. EPL hosted those events. If you look closely at the publications https://mastbooks.com/products/complete-works they were published by EPL. EPL was an imprint at that time. Ashmusiclover222 (talk) 18:16, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmusiclover222: They may or may not have been EPL hosted events, the sources do not say. (I cannot work on the presumption that everything that Thurston Moore does is related to EPL.) Also, you have ignored the third opinion that has been offered, and you have ignored the conflict of interest guidelines that state that you should be editing this article at all. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 11:57, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmusiclover222: I get the feeling that you are misunderstanding the criteria of "Notability". No one is saying EPL is not an important company. No one is saying EPL doesn't host events or has too small a catalogue.

What is being said is that those events were not noted by others. We are looking for things that stand out to other people. We are looking for magazines to have articles about EPL's events. We are looking for newspaper articles about how big EPL's catalogue is.

Regardless of if these edits are true, they don't hold significance for WP. It seems odd at first but... we are not looking for veracity. We are looking for notability.

Padillah (talk) 12:04, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@Padillah: The matter has been brought to WP:COIN. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:30, 1 May 2023 (UTC)