Talk:East Jutland metropolitan area

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No title

I live in the area and when I stumbled across this article it made my toes cringe just a little bit. Including an article on the East Jutland metropolitan area is definitely justified since it is a somewhat official term which also pops up in Danish media from time to time. If predictions are correct, the area will grow in population in the future and become more and more urbanized. That being said, the article reads like a mix between a tourist brochure and corporate advertising, especially the section on economy. The list of sports teams seems to have too much weight. So cut out the babbling, cut out the megalomania, and stick to facts. A short section explaining the origin and historical usage of the term would also add value. Last but not least, don't abuse the English language. By skimming the text I find simple spelling mistakes such as "4.000 new inhabitant" (missing plural), "However, in recent years has been out-paced by the Copenhagen metropolitan area" (bordering upon nonsense), "the metropolitan area is home to many large companies, among are Vestas Wind Systems A/S a Danish manufacturer, seller, installer, and servicer of wind turbines. It is the largest in the world, and Arla Foods a Swedish-Danish cooperative based in Aarhus, Denmark, and the largest producer of dairy products in Scandinavia" (missing capital at start of sentence; and the punctuation is puzzling). In general the text is clearly written by native Danish speakers with limited knowledge of English. The lack of self insight adds to the megalomanic feel of the article. Substandard for Wikipedia. Definitely needs cleanup, both the contents and the prose. /Martin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.150.6.100 (talk) 09:03, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Er der ikke nogen der kan ligge et billede af de 17 kommuner på siden markeret med rødt ligesom kommunerne er markeret, det vil give en bedre forståelse af hvad det er for et område der er tale om.

This is like declaring that Norfolk and Suffolk form a single city, and they are two of the more rural counties in England. Luwilt (talk) 04:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

to Luwilt, you can not make a reference to england, england i one of the most densely populated areas in the world, denmark is not, The east jutland metropolitan area is very densely populated in danish terms in comparison to other danish areas as North jutland or vest jutland. It is the danish state there has declered that east jutland is not one single city but one big city area, and this area is whitout any doubt the most growing in population, in making new jobs, and so on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.243.176.101 (talk) 17:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"East Jutland metropolitan area (Byregion Østjylland), The Danish state has declared that Denmark now has 2 city areas with more than 1 million inhabitants, that is the official status according to environment minister Troels Lund Poulsen ([1]). Now the first meetings between the cities and the Danish state has begun to find a broad corporation and a common identity. Now the area has to decide how it can grow to one metropolis to rival the Copenhagen area. Some cities has not yet grown together and they probably never will because the Danish state will protect the green areas so it not will grow into a new Danish "Los Angeles"." Horrible, horrible, amateurish use of the English language... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.162.224.202 (talk) 00:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, this entire article is marred by poor grammar, to say the least. This suggests that one single individual has authored the entire article, and very few, if any, have bothered to amend it. The language flow could also be improved. Spelling is ok, but generally, this article is of very poor quality, and clearly sub-standard for an encyclopedia. The reference to "Los Angeles" is just plain silly, and makes little sense. The tone and spin of the article is almost megalomanian. Regards, Erik, Norway —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.162.224.202 (talk) 00:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relax Relax get of your high horse. the article is fine, the spelling is good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tokiatown (talk • contribs) 16:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone provide a neutral, reliable source for the article? Some of these cities has 30-40 kilometers of rural areas in between them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.116.239.3 (talk) 20:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here, the danish Environment Minister says in danish that Denmark now has 2 city areas whit more than one million inhabitants http://www.tv2regionerne.dk/reg2005/player.aspx?id=405290&r=7.

What are you talking about? Some of these cities has 30-40 kilometers of rural areas in between them??. thats not true, look at google earth, besides its the danish state ho has declered that the area is one big city area, not one single city. A metropolitan area is not one urban city but a area where the cities in the area is in corporation for common ground. once again Its the danish state that declered that the area is one big city area. reed in Danish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.49.155.74 (talk) 22:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why we discuss this, all which can read and understand Danish can see that it is not 1 person invention that suddently there must be a million city inhabitants in eastjutland. it is the State which has pointed out that the area is a city area from haderslev in the south to randers in the north. the State has designated the 17 municipalities as part of the eastjutland million city, how difficult it is to understand?. The eastjutland metropolitan area are already in reality today and since the area is the fastest growing in denmark, the government pointed to the area on 10-20 years will have grown together if not to preserve some green areas between the cities.

Megalomania on it's high! Nothing surprising for DK goverment. Some of these 17 municipal centres are barely towns. So, calling them cities is nonsence as most of them are nothing else than villages. Only 3 or 4 of these settlements could be qualified as cities, and no more than 2/3 of population in this belt is living in what can be defined as urban settlements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.75.167.38 (talk) 13:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Almost nonsense

The name "metropolitan area" or millionby (million city) is almost nonsensical for this area. Yes, it is more densely populated than Northern, Western and Southern Jutland, but not terribly more densely than areas on Zealand. Some of the municipalities included are very rural and sparsely populated, such as Billund, Vejen, Norddjurs, Syddjurs, and major parts of the remaining municipalities as well. However, various areas of Denmark have a long history of competing with each other in megalomania. It is true that the state addressed the issue, however they did not designate the area along the E45 to be a future big, long city corridor, but they rather started talks with the municipalities in order to prevent this, i.e. they advised the municipalites to keep green/rural zones between towns and not let the built-up areas grow together. So the article is not only sensational, but also a little misleading. The fact that the concept has been named on a conference at Aalborg University and in an official government report, however, does justify that the article exists. --Sasper (talk) 03:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above comment, a lot of the contents seem to be there to justify that it "really really is" a real metropolitan region. It's biased. --PW — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.158.47.107 (talk) 07:19, 4 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article seems more like an ad made for promoting the so called metropolitan area than an fact based article fitting for an encyclopedia.

More Facts Please

One can always argue about words. I don't think you can just take any sparsely populated area with more than one million inhabitants and then call it a "world city" - otherwise it would be totally meaningless to use the term (ever heard of a city called "Netherlands" or "Mongolia"?). As the current liberal-conservative Danish government introduced the term it has its place in Wikipedia anyhow; and if it is just to document this case of newspeak. If that isn't the only purpose of this article then some more facts would be welcome. So anybody who likes the notion of calling this mostly rural area a city: Why don't you add some more facts about your favorite "city" (besides totally unknown football or handball(!) teams). Thanks. Vicki Reitta (talk) 13:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fastest Growing city area

Why does people not understand thats such municipalities as Billund, Vejen, Norddjurs, Syddjurs is the outskirts of the metropolitan area and does not and do not provide the major terms of population to the region, the major populations are of course Aarhus-Vejle-Randers-Horsens-Silkeborg-Kolding, it seems that people does not understand that a metropolitan area is not the same as a urban area which is one build up area, a metropolitan area is a area whit the same goals and connected by commuting and settlement across Municipal bounderies, which the East Jutland metropolitan can easily meet. mayby its becourse danish people is so provinsiel and people in Copenhagen is not ready to the see tha fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.62.34.129 (talk) 20:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not a coherent urban area

This article gives the false impression that area in mention is a coherent urban/metropolitan area, which it is not—at all.Bagande (talk) 20:35, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is absolutely not right, using the term urban area for this area, is true crowd manipulation!! -Patchfinder (talk) 01:16, 18 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Megalomania

Calling East Jutland a "metropolitan area" is plain ridiculous, to say the least. Including a large number of small communities separated by thousands of square kilometers of farmland in order to artificially push Aarhus over the one million mark is Danish megalomania manifested. Heck, maybe Sweden should include all of the province of Scania/Skåne in the Malmö Metropolitan Area and/or triple the land area of the Gothenburg Metropolitan Area? Doing so would create two metropolitan areas of roughly the same geographical size as East Jutland but with a larger population than East Jutland, the majority of the population of both of those enlarged areas would also, unlike the population of the "East Jutland Metropolitan Area", be truly urban. Allan Akbar (talk) 13:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All of Scania is "truly" urban ... ??? I'm sorry to say so, but Scania is pretty rural (like most of Sweden) ... And it's hard to argue that Malmo and Aarhus are pretty comparable in size. Nmc273 (talk) 13:39, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't claim that "all of Scania is truly urban". Try reading it again. What I wrote was that the majority of the population of Scania is urban, which is true. With the urban areas concentrated along Öresund and the southern coast of Scania, and most of the rest of Scania being rural. Allan Akbar (talk) 14:46, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I could add that if the communities of Landskrona and Helsingborg were to be included in the official statistical entity "Greater Malmö" (Stormalmö), you would get a metropolitan area along the eastern coast of Öresund with a population of about 835,000 and an area of just under 3,000 km2 (which is far less than one third of the area of the "Eastern Jutland Metropolitan Area"). In other words two-thirds of the population of Scania live in an area that is only one-quarter of the total area of Scania. And adding those two communities to "Greater Malmö" could be easily justified since the distance between Malmö and Helsingborg is only about 60 km, they're connected to Malmö by both commuter trains and a motorway, and a lot of people in Landskrona and Helsingborg regularly commute to Malmö/Lund. Allan Akbar (talk) 16:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for deletion

I've been trying to find reliable official information about the "East Jutland Metropolitan Area", something that would prove that such a metropolitan area exists, but with no luck. All I could find was a number of fuzzy "visions" from various politicians and political bodies, "future projections" and so on, all of it from a few years back, but no hard evidence. Not even Danmarks Statistik, who keep track of the population of Denmark and so on, had any information about it. Instead they list East Jutland as merely one of several subdivisions of Jutland, with a considerable lower population than 1.2 million. So since the "East Jutland Metropolitan Area" seems to be fiction and not fact I suggest we simply delete this page. Allan Akbar (talk) 19:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I support deletion. I am a Dane living in Denmark, and I have never heard of this outside of Wikipedia. If this can in any way be said to exist, it is not notable.

--Klausok (talk) 07:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I also support the deletion of this article. The terms Aarhus metropolitan area (Aarhus-området (http://www.midttrafik.dk/letbane/forside+-+letbane)) and The Triangle Region (Trekantsområdet (Vejle-Kolding-Fredericia area) (http://www.trekantomraadet.dk/)) should be used instead on Wikipedia as they are real now. The "East Jutland metropolitan area" currently only describes population growth tendencies and political visions in Eastern Jutland - not an existing metropolitan area. Nmc273 (talk) 11:12, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No and no to deletion! what are you people talking about? you havent heard of this metro area? and you are living in Denmark? what rock have you lived under? the Danish name is Det østjyske bybånd

http://www.aarhus.dk/da/omkommunen/nyheder/2012/2-kvartal/Randers-gaar-med-i-Business-Region-Aarhus.aspx http://hsfo.dk/horsens/hf116361/oestjyske-borgmestre-vil-have-seks-spor-paa-motorvejen http://samsoe-strategi.cowi.webhouse.dk/dk/planstrategi/samsoe_2012_-_status_og_tendenser/

and its a highly recognized coherent area today, its not a vision, its a reality today, there are large forces in east jutland with corporation, its a fact. NO DELETION. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.155.238.201 (talk) 01:06, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am a Dane living in Denmark. This is the first time I hear about Det østjyske bybånd. --Klausok (talk) 06:42, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of these three sources, two are respectively the site of a municipality in the area and a local paper in the area. The third is the site of the municipality of Samsø. This is what it says: "Øen ligger tæt på det østjyske bybånd, som er en dansk vækstzone , der strækker sig fra Kolding til Randers." "The island is close to the east Jutland town strip, which is a Danish growth zone, which stretches from Kolding to Randers." So even a neighbouring municipality does not expect readers to know what the east Jutland town strip is (and does not treat it as a proper name).--Klausok (talk) 08:21, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a Dane and I don't live in Denmark but I still have an opinion. There's a very big difference between being a "growth zone" or a "bybånd" and being a metropolitan area. If the article had a different name I wouldn't object to it, but claiming that a rural area covering almost 10,000 square kilometers, with a distance of more than 120 km from end to end, is a metropolitan area is plain ridiculous and shows that the person who wrote it, and the people who defend it, have never lived in (and probably never even visited) a real metropolitan area. Allan Akbar (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

you are way off, a metropolitan area is not one coherent urban area, but a area linked by infrastucture and so on, its recognized by the Danish State and all the municipalities.

Horsens municipality http://www.horsens.dk/Politik/~/media/glStruktur/Publikationer/Politik/BostningsstrategigodkendtafBY1412101pdf.ashx

Viborg municipality are trying to trying to convince the Ministry of Environment that the municipality must be included to the area http://viborg.dk/db/dagsord.nsf/910db9cbe9327ab7c1256c540022f8e2/29802d5fef41456ec12577b5003700c0/$FILE/OK-061010-357-02.pdf

the Danish Department of Transportation will specifically examined the possibility of a real train system with 15 minute interval in det Østjyske Bybånd http://www.trm.dk/~/media/Files/Publication/2011/Strategiske%20analyser/Sammenfatning%20%20Screening%20af%20linjef%C3%B8ringer%20for%20timemodellen%20og%20banebetjening%20af%20%C3%98stjylland.ashx

Can your personel felling go against the Danish State? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.155.238.201 (talk) 10:28, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be ridiculous, "personal feelings against the Danish state". No I have no personal feelings against Aarhus, the Danish state or anyone else. But the "East Jutland Metropolitan Area" simply does not exist. It's a "political vision", and a dream in the mind of some of the people who live there, nothing else. It does not fit any commonly used/accepted definition of a metropolitan area for the simple reason that it isn't one. If it was all of England would be a single metropolitan area, just to give you an example. Thomas.W (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is useless talk, to say that it does not exist! "It's a "political vision", and a dream in the mind of some of the people who live there" its a dream that some of you think it does not exist, your personal thoughts about it, is to no difference, it exist!

And some of you called it a "policical vision" first of all, it was way back in 06 that this area was first mentioned by the State, today its 2012 people, and back then it was a vision to further develop the area combined, as the report claims back in 08 - in Danish

Byregion Østjylland kan med rette bestegnes som et funktionelt sammenhængende byområde forbundet af både infrastruktur og arbejdsmarkeds- og pendlingsrelationer på tværs af de kommunale grænser (Landsplanredegørelse 2006; Bro og Harder 2007). Med 1.202.353 personer bosat i regionen, udgør den ca. 20% af Danmarks befolkning og er således det næststørste sammenhængende byområde efter hovedstadsregionen. http://www2.blst.dk/udgiv/Publikationer/2008/978-87-92256-58-4/html/kap05.htm#5.1

So this report from the State back in 08 tells us that it is not a vision, but already a fact, and the vision is to guide the area in the future.

Besides the corporation between the municipalities in the area are many today, seek the internet yourself. And to compare it to England is just plain silly, England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world! (130,395 km2 with a population of 52,000,000) as many other Western European countries is Belgium/Germany Netherlands, so to compare a Danish area to those are futile.

Fact - recognized by the Danish State,

And again this talk is pointless if some of you people don't recognize fact from the Danish state, no deletion! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.155.238.201 (talk) 11:20, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since you have repeatedly claimed that East Jutland is officially recognized as a metropolitan area by "the Danish state" it's about time that you prove it. In Sweden all three metropolitan areas, Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö, are officially recognized as metropolitan areas under the names Storstockholm, Storgöteborg and Stormalmö, and the SCB (Statistiska Centralbyrån) publish population figures and other statistics for those three official entities, while in Denmark, AFAIK, similar statistics are only published for Copenhagen, and not for the mythical "East Jutland metropolitan area". Which seems to contradict your claims. Thomas.W (talk) 11:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The statistics from Denmark don't mentionen Copenhagen Metropolitan either, it only mention Copenhagen urban area with 1,2 mio people, thats not the whole of Copenhagen metro area with 1,9 mio people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_metropolitan_area, then there are the Capital Region but that is just like Central Denmark Region http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Region_Midtjylland.

There are no info from Denmark statistics for Copenhagen metropolitan area with 1,9 mio people, so again you are way off.

And if you are blind, i can't help you! it is a wast of time talking with people with no common sense. NO Deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.155.238.201 (talk) 14:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Danmarks Statistik publishes population figures and other statistics for the officially recognized regions of Denmark (including Region Hovedstaden, that is the Copenhagen area, with a population of 1,7 million). But there is no Region Østjylland (East Jutland), only Syddanmark and Midtjylland, with the towns claimed to be part of the "East Jutland Metropolitan Area" split between those two officially recognized regions. In other words there is no such thing as an officially recognized "East Jutland Metropolitan Area". And the Danish Wikipedia states that "public planners expect the area to become a metropolitan area" ("i offentlig planlægning forventes at udvikle sig til en metropolregion"). In other words, it is NOT a metropolitan area today but if things develop the way public planners hope it will, it will one day become a metropolitan area. Something that can of course be said about just about any region in any country in the world, and doesn't merit an article on Wikipedia. Thomas.W (talk) 16:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You say Thomas.W

Danmarks Statistik publishes population figures and other statistics for the officially recognized regions of Denmark (including Region Hovedstaden, that is the Copenhagen area, with a population of 1,7 million). But there is no Region Østjylland (East Jutland),

you contradict yourself, because Region hovedstaden is not a metropolitan area, but just a area like Region Midtjylland or Region Nordjylland, its not a recognised metropolitan area from Denmarks statistics, its just a administrative region.

And to the point that some believe that the area is rural, I have only this to say, the East Jutland area are as just densely populated or more than these areas

Oklahoma City metropolitan area 1,322,459 people on 16,512 km² Density 80.1/km²

New Orleans metropolitan area 1,235,650 people on 9,726.6 km² Density 120/km²

Kansas City metropolitan area 2,035,335 people on 20,596 km² Density 100.4/km²

Nashville metropolitan area 1,617,142 people on 14,926 km² Density 108/km²

And here is East Jutland metropolitan area 1,246,252 people on 9,984 km² Density 124.82 km²

And if you only look at the core area in east Jutland(Aarhus/Randers/Favrskov/Silkeborg/Skanderborg/Odder/Horsens/Hedensted/Vejle/Fredericia/Kolding there are 1,005,077 people on 6,182 km² and a Density of 160/km², much higher than the national average.

So why is it some people has a hard time to recognize this area, could it be the very familiar Danish Jantelov? i dont know, but lets all take a chill, the fact is that there are so many sources mentioning this area, so it do very much exist, so therefore it cannot be deleted. HDMS Apple (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why this discussion? its obvious a reality in that area, where cooperation between municipalities are on a daily basis.

Besides this article was begun in 2007, so why delete it now? it makes now sense.Incaking below (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see no point in continuing a discussion with people who obviously don't even know what a metropolitan area is, and probably never even have been to one (Hint: a metropolitan area is made up of one or more adjacent municipalities situated around a major urban core, with the adjacent municipalities closely bound to the center by employment or other commerce; so how many of the people who live in the small towns that make up 75% of the population of the claimed East Jutland Metropolitan Area, and in most cases are at a considerable distance from Aarhus, work in Aarhus or regularly travel to Aarhus to do their shopping?). And claiming that Aarhus is comparable to "cities like Antwerp, Dresden, Glasgow, Marseille, Saint Petersburg and Turin", as has been done in the article (a claim that has since been removed a couple of times), is laughable. No-one who has ever visited both Aarhus and any of those cities would make such a comparison. Thomas.W (talk) 22:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK "det østjyske bybånd" does exist as a coopereation between a number of municipalities. But is it notable? So far the one mention in the media referenced has been from Horsens Folkeblad, a local paper from one of the smaller member municipalities. Does it have an official name in English? If not, maybe some term other than "metropolitan area" might be better. Isn't "corridor" a better transation of "bybånd" (lit. town ribon)?

Another point: could we tone down the language? Accusing people of living under a rock or of having no common sense just because they do not share your oppinion is not going to help reach a consensus. --Klausok (talk) 06:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you continue to called it towns like its very small urban areas, i Danish terms its not small towns, Aarhus is by far the biggest city and Randers has more than 60.000 people in the Urban area, Horsens more than 50.000, so does Vejle and Kolding, and Silkeborg and Fredericia around 40.000, the area consist of 7 of the 16 largest cities in Denmark, nr 2 nr 6 nr 7 nr 8 nr 9 nr 14 and nr 16. http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danmarks_st%C3%B8rste_byer

And yes, we all know what a Metropolitan area is, see the links to the Metro areas above, East Jutland is as dense, or more than those areas, so what is the problem, not all Metro areas are a dense as London or Paris, so stop this nonsense, there are smaller metro areas like the ones in US above.

Why would anyone rename it to a Town belt, its more or less centralized around Aarhus, which clearly is a city, an by far the most important urban area in East Jutland, around half of the growth comes out from Aarhus, so no to Town belt, its a City belt if anything!

And to the point "So far the one mention in the media referenced has been from Horsens Folkeblad, a local paper from one of the smaller member municipalities" again Horsens is not a smaller municipality, there are 54.000 people in the urban area and 83.000 in the municipality, and only one mention in the media? Try to look it up in the internet, and you will find many articles from papers and news clips, all this is just people who clearly doesn't like the idea that things are changing, thats my guess, the area is in such a rapid development concerning new housing and growth in population, the last 4 years the crowth has been 34.000, that is more than 8.000 new residents in the area every year, so it is a booming area, compared to rest of Denmark (Copenhagen excluded) Please request1 (talk) 10:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article is much improved. I don't think the current version would prompt a comment like "Danish magalomania". As for "city" versus "town", I don't think that there is any clear rule on which to use when translating "by". The ones you mention are obviously cities, but the area contains many smaller towns, and I took the "by" in "bybånd" to refer also to them. --Klausok (talk) 06:30, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

East Jutland Metropolitan is not comparable to Copenhagen Metro - it's comparable to Øresundsregionen which comprises the entirety of Zealand, Lolland, Falster and southern Sweden. Population density is higher but not dramatically so - 174 vs. 124. I do think it's spurious to reference East Jutland Metropolitan as the metro area of Aarhus just as it would be to reference Øresundsregionen as the metro area of Copenhagen. However, if Øresundsregionen warrants an article then clearly so does East Jutland Metropolitan. Vejle is as much a part of a larger economic area with Aarhus as Lolland is part of an economic area with Copenhagen. Anosmoman (talk) 06:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Possible sock puppetry

There are now three newly created users arguing for the "East Jutland Metropolitan Area", Please request1, Incaking below and HDMS Apple, all three of them writing in the exact same style as, making the exact same language errors as and active on the same pages as 178.155.238.201. Which makes me believe that we're seeing a case of sock puppetry. So I would like to remind whoever is doing this that using sock puppets in order to create an image of support, and/or influence a vote, could get him or her permanently blocked from editing. I haven't requested a sock puppet investigation but if this escalates further I will not hesitate to do so. Thomas.W (talk) 11:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have now for some time been watching this discussion, which should never take place, and now it must stop! East Jutland Metropolitan Area is in every way to be considered a functional coherent area, which is supported by the many links and websites to official sources. Attempts to troll this website, with people's own opinions, will in future be met with a firm hand and reported. It is clear that Allan Akbar and Thomas W is the same person who just wants to troll this site and this will not be accepted! From now on I will keep a close eye on this page and will be aware of changes which can be interpreted as trolling.Wiki watchdog (talk) 15:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas.W and Allan Akbar are one and the same, and share the same user pages (it is in other words a renamed user). BTW, a user name such as "Wiki watchdog" is most probably a violation of the Wikipedia user name policy since it is an obvious attempt to mislead others into believing that you are in a position of authority on Wikipedia, which you're not (or to quote from the rules: "the types of names which can be misleading are too numerous to list, but definitely include usernames that imply you are in a position of authority over Wikipedia"). Judging by the combination of English words and Danish grammar it might also be another sock puppet. Thomas.W (talk) 16:50, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki watchdog is in no way a misleading name, which you should know, since you apparently are a regular user of this forum. But if it offends anyone, I can easily change it to a more appropriate name. Thomas W's allegations concerning sock puppets in this forum borders on trolling and will not be tolerated much longer. This discussion is now over. If you have something constructive to add regarding East Jutland Metropolien Area you are welcome, but trolling and personal views are not accepted in the article. Wiki watchdog (talk) 18:23, 2 July 2012 (UTC).[reply]

"This discussion is now over". I hope it was intended as a joke because you have no authority here, so it doesn't matter what you accept or don't accept. As for the suspected sock puppetry the best solution would be to report it and see what happens. There is BTW a message to you on on your talk page, a message that I suggest you answer. Thomas.W (talk) 19:21, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry that you continue to insist on provoking others in this forum. You are welcome to attend this forum as long as you behave properly and stop trolling. I am watching you and will report you if you don't stop trolling!Wiki watchdog (talk) 23:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki watchdog (contribs) has been blocked indefinitely for violating the user name policy and posing as if he/she was in a position of authority on Wikipedia. Thomas.W (talk) 06:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a result of a sock puppet investigation 178.155.238.201, Please request1, Incaking below, HDMS Apple and three other aliases of the same person have been blocked indefinitely for abusing multiple accounts (that is sock puppetry), which, since their contributions were all written by a single person, means that only one user has defended the "East Jutland Metropolitan Area". Thomas.W (talk) 14:01, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was merge. TSventon (talk) 11:36, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that Aarhus metropolitan area (AMA) be merged into East Jutland metropolitan area (EJMA). I think that the content in the AMA article can easily be explained in the context of EJMA. Both articles are of a reasonable size so the merging of Aarhus metropolitan area will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned.TSventon (talk) 11:04, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I had a look at Aarhus metropolitan area (AMA) because it was on a list of orphan articles. Copenhagen has 0) Copenhagen (disambiguation), København (flertydig), 1) Copenhagen, København, 2) Copenhagen Municipality, Københavns Kommune, 3) [Former] Copenhagen County, Københavns Amt, 4) Copenhagen metropolitan area, Hovedstadsområdet, 5) Capital Region of Denmark, Region Hovedstaden. All have their equivalents in Danish Wikipedia, listed second. Aarhus has 1) Aarhus, Aarhus, 2) Aarhus Municipality, Aarhus Kommune, 3) [Former] Aarhus County, Aarhus Amt 4) East Jutland metropolitan area (EJMA), Byregion Østjylland, 5) Central Denmark Region, Region Midtjylland . All have their equivalents in Danish Wikipedia, listed second.

I think AMA should be merged because it is an orphan, it is part of EJMA and it does not have an equivalent in Danish Wikipedia. I am not Danish, so I am happy to take advice from anyone with more knowledge.TSventon (talk) 11:15, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, and thanks for noting me on my talkpage about the merge proposal. From a first glance I can relate to your proposal and some of your arguments, mainly the orphan argument. However, AMA and EJMA are clearly not the same and it is important that we check up to see if AMA is a real and notable geographic zone in its own right. Since 2007, geographical and administrative zones in Denmark has changed significantly and I myself is not up to date on these issues.

Even if AMA emerges as a real and notable geographical zone, it would not necessarily obstruct a merging. AMA can still be described in its own section in the EJMA article. If merging is a good option will depend on the background material on AMA and its notability.

If it is decided that AMA should remain an individual page, we can easily solve the orphan aspect. There are many pages we can link to. The AMA page is from 2007, and I am a bit confused why it is still an orphan. Maybe it has to do with lack of notability? I can't tell at the moment. As said, we will have to read up on things and check sources.

Talking about AMA and EJMA, I would also like to mention the Triangle Region (Trekantsområdet). EJMA is comprised geographically by TR and AMA, but neither AMA or TR is mentioned at all on the EJMA page, which is odd. RhinoMind (talk) 10:39, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Thanks for your reply, I did say I wanted advice from people with more knowledge.

Background: I have added the Danish names of articles above.

The EJMA and AMA articles were started by the same editor in September 2007, and contained very similar information. AMA had a link to EJMA, but not vice versa. 11 years later, EJMA has had more information added, but AMA has not. AMA is flagged as an orphan, EJMA as in need of a cleanup.

Following further research I believe Denmark now has 2 levels of local government: municipality (2 above) and region (5 above). I have found a Danish Wiki article “Business Region Aarhus” (BRA), which corresponds to AMA. BRA seems to be an initiative of the 12 municipalities, a bit like TR. EJMA seems to be less far advanced. (There is also a stub article, Storaarhus.)

Proposal:

1) I could move AMA to BRA, and add a translation of the Danish BRA article.

2) I could delete the population figures in AMA as they are a less up to date version of the information in EJMA.TR does not have population figures.

3) EJMA still needs a cleanup, but I don’t have the knowledge to do it.

4) The maps of AMA and EJMA are out of date, but I don't know how to find or add up to date ones.

What do you think?TSventon (talk) 12:23, 8 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, rereading my own comment it does appear superficial, just stating general wiki guideline stuff, but I was inspired to read up on things and I have more substance to add to the discussion. I don't have time on weekdays however. I will get back later. Glad to see you discovered Business Region Aarhus too. RhinoMind (talk) 16:20, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I look forward to your ideas. I wasn't criticizing your reply, just trying to reply to some of your points. Perhaps a merger proposal was not justified, but at least it started a discussion. I have been copy editing Regions of Denmark and the articles for the individual regions in the mean time.TSventon (talk) 12:31, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Back. As mentioned in my last comment, I did some research on the subject and now I have the time to share it.

In 2007, Aarhus Municipality in a collaboration with the then newly formed Central Denmark Region, established the region of "Stor Århus". At the same time the municipality, in collaboration with local major businesses, established Business Region Aarhus (BRA) as well. The two regions are roughly congruent geographically, but not exactly and they have different purposes. Looking at the two references in the Aarhus metropolitan area article, it refers to the entire East Jutland metropolitan area and not the Aarhus region specifically. This is of course a problem in itself, but it also points to the interpretation that the article refers to Stor Aarhus, rather than BRA which is a business project.

Anyway, the Stor Aarhus designation seems to have been phased out, there aren't any current references to it and Aarhus Municipality only mentions the BRA project. In my mind, the consequence of this is that the designation is not notable enough to have its own wiki-page. Only BRA might qualify for mention. But that could easily be done in the East jutland metropolitan area article.

Based on all of this, I think we should delete/merge the Aarhus metropolitan area page with East Jutland metropolitan area page. And i think we should do it by making a section on Business Region Aarhus. I also think we should mention Stor Aarhus a few times in the text and possibly include the regional image currently used in the Aarhus metropolitan area article. Note: BRA also includes Viborg and includes some areas outside EJMA. See the BRA website for a map.

References on Stor Aarhus (also Storaarhus, Storårhus, Stor Århus and Aarhusregionen):

Storaarhus, Danish Wikipedia
Velkommen til Storårhus, JyllandsPosten
Aarhusregionen, Visit Aarhus
Aarhus er hovedstaden i østjysk millionby, Århus Stiftstidende
Aarhus-direktør: "Vi er 100 år efter udviklingen i København", Finans
Hedens hovedstad vil blomstre med Storårhus, JyllandsPosten
StorAarhus, Aarhus Municipality

Note: Confusingly, Storårhus is also an older term used for roughly Aarhus Municipality, so beware if you research the subject yourself.

References on Business Region Aarhus:

Business Region Aarhus, homepage
Business Region Aarhus, Aarhus Municipality
Business Region Aarhus, Wikipedia

RhinoMind (talk) 14:50, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@RhinoMind: Thanks for all the links. I have read them all with the help of Google translate, except the link to Finans which asked for a subscription. My understanding is that BRA started in 1994 as the 10 municipal cooperation and gained its current name in 2007 with communal reform. The references suggest that the Greater Aarhus/ Storaarhus is an idea not an institution. Not surprisingly,it seems to be of most interest to Aarhus politicians, but in one of the links it is also mentioned by a Herning politician, whose municipality is outside the BRA.

One more link, with the title "The potential of a common picture of the structure of the East Jutland Million City is to be investigated": https://realdania.dk/nyheder/2018/09/%C3%B8stjysk-millionby_05092018

I am not an expert on Denmark so I would be very happy for you to do as much of the update as you have time and interest for. I am also happy to do the updates myself but would do a basic version and hope to make further improvements gradually. I have updated The Danish EJMA article with 2018 data and links to the BRA and TR articles.

My suggestions are: 1) Blank the Aarhus metropolitan area page and redirect to East Jutland metropolitan area page. 2) Make an article on Business Region Aarhus. I think a separate article is justified because: a) BRA is an established collaboration while EJMA seems to have been little more than a concept for 10 years. b) TR has a separate article. c)The article would link to the Danish article on BRA.

Greater Aarhus is mentioned twice in the text of EJMA so the Danish translation Storaarhus should be added. The EJMA website lists the 19 municipalities of BRA and TR Link: http://www.byregionoestjylland.dk/Kommuner.html I think new maps of BRA and EJMA are needed, but the TR map seems to be up to date. There is a Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop who might be able to help with this.TSventon (talk) 10:33, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inconsistencies

There are some wrong info in the article.

For example, Viborg Municipality is included in the last table, but this municipality is not part of EJMA. To edit it out, it would require to recalculate population numbers. RhinoMind (talk) 14:58, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an authoritative list of municipalities in EJMA? The article cites www.byregionoestjylland.dk, which list 19 municipalities including Viborg and Samsø.^[1] I therefore edited the Danish article to be consistent with the English one by adding Viborg and Samsø.

The article does not mention the 2008 infrastructure commission which I believe did not include Viborg and Samsø.TSventon (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the images, that's all. Not a proper source, I'll admit. If there is an authoritative basic source on the EJMA, then images should be changed accordingly. But is there an authoritative basic source on EJMA? I can't tell. RhinoMind (talk) 19:06, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BR Aarhus and Triangle Region have described their 19 municipalities as the East Jutland Million City in recent press releases, so I think that the wikipedia statistics should include all 19 as well.^[2]^[3] The map reflects the 17 municipalities consulted by the Danish government in 2008.

I will try to add a section on the 2008 infrastrukturkommission after the lead (in the next week or so). I think the sections on BR Aarhus and Triangle Region should come next as they are managing the development of the EJMA.TSventon (talk) 14:26, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good ideas there. Yes, maybe the geographical images just reflects the early extent of EJMA? They would still need to be changed and updated if they are to be used in the article. Given that EJMA now includes the municipalities of Viborg and Samsø of course.

Are BR and TR really managing the development of EJMA? RhinoMind (talk) 18:10, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@RhinoMind: I said BRA and TR are managing the development of the EJMA as they cooperate on planning in their areas which together cover EJMA. The wording was inexact, but fortunately this is only the talk page.TSventon (talk) 10:28, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I get your idea. But it doesn't seem to be how it works in reality at the moment. Some influential factors wants a closer cooperation between BRA and TR, while other factors don't. At the moment the mayor of Aarhus, who is also head of all Danish municipalities, don't want to incorporate TR in BRA. See here fx: [1] (in the last section of the E45 motorway there are some clear statements).

It just seems that the idea of an EJMA (including TR) is not on the agenda for those at the controls. EJMA still exists, I don't think anyone can change that overnight, but there isn't a common administration or organisation working for all of EJMA. You have to remember that these terms are mostly political and administrative terms. RhinoMind (talk) 10:51, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "byregionoestjylland.dk". www.byregionoestjylland.dk.
^ "Potentialerne ved et faelles strukturbillede for den ostjyske-millionby skal undersoeges" [The potential for a common structure model for the East Jutland Million City will be examined] (in Danish). businessregionaarhus.dk. Retrieved 10 January 2019.
^ "Arkitektskole skal kigge på potentialerne i trekantområdet og Aarhus" [School of Architecture will investigate possibilities in Triangle Region and Aarhus] (in Danish). trekantomraadet.dk. Retrieved 10 January 2019.

The region (as an administrative idea) has largely been dismantled

Hello. I have just updated the article and it appears, that the idea of and East Jutland Metropolitan Area has largely been dismantled since 2013. Some groups are still working with the concept, but many high profile administrations don't. Instead the region has been split into the two administrative subregions of Business Region Aarhus (BRA) and The Triangle Region (TR). Also, to add to the confusion, BRA includes both Samsø and Viborg municipality.

I think this explains the reason behind most of the inconsistencies in the article.

I have put up info, refs and sources in the article. RhinoMind (talk) 19:24, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for the additional info and refs. It is difficult for a non Dane to understand Danish planning policy, so I think it would be helpful to add some more detail, for example:

"The idea of an East Jutland metropolitan area materialised administratively in 2006, but had been a work in progress since the 1990s." Who did what in the 1990s and who did what in 2006?

It is also very difficult for a Dane :-) No kidding. Perhaps it would be easier for people who had studied geography or political science? I can't tell. The 1990 stuff is explained in the ref I put up. It appears to have been a more loose collaboration between the involved municipalities. In 2006 The "Byregion Østjylland" organisation (and others) were formed.

"Since 2013, several Danish administrations no longer operate with the term East Jutland metropolitan area," What are the administrations and how do they operate?

The administrations are the municipal administrations, country-wide administrations, regional administrations and so on. EJMA is out of the equation for some reason. It is explained in the refs I put up. "Operate" in this context means the administrations no longer use the term in any of their planning and day-to-day work.

I have looked through Landsplanredegørelser 2006 and 2013 and still don't know what EJMA and its subregions mean in practice.TSventon (talk) 11:30, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The subregions are collaborations between the municipalities within the subregion. It consists of collective planning on infrastructure, education, public investments and a lot of related stuff. The details will probably be next to impossible to obtain for laymen. And... I don't think we need the details anyway.

You are welcome. I had a breakthrough on the subject and a lot of stuff began to make sense. Hard work. I have answered each question on its own in your post. RhinoMind (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for the explanations. I saw you did a lot of work on the article in the last few days. I will try to add a history section with a few sentences about Lprg 2006, the infrastructure commission and Lprg 2013 and then rewrite the lead as a summary.TSventon (talk) 11:52, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. I would, however, like to express my own editorial opinions here: I don't think we need to go into all the details around the administrative and political stuff. I read, but didn't mention, the "Landplansredegørelse" in the article, because I think it is an unnecessary, and confusing, piece of info that doesn't add anything to the understanding of the subject. Folks who want to attend the details have a lot of refs they can follow, and that's is a great option. If you really feel for it, and have good reasons, then just bypass my opinion, but I would not recommend to spend much time digging out other detailed publications and describe them in the article. I have a feeling that the "Landsplanredegøresel" is also falling out of fashion, so to speak. I have not been able to find any other issues than the 2006 and 2013 issues, although it is supposed to be published annually. Just to let you know.

On top of that, I have thought about deleting the whole image gallery from the page. Sure, they are pretty pictures - I have even collected and put them up myself after a lenghty selection process -, but EJMA is about an administrative term and not of that great importance to Jutland as a whole.

Those are my ideas about this page. RhinoMind (talk) 01:43, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that excessive detail should be avoided, but I think that the "Landplansredegørelser" are important as the project mostly involved meetings and documents from 2006 to 2013. Also referring to specific documents is less confusing than giving a more general account, particularly for readers who have little or no Danish. I would like to rewrite the first three paragraphs as follows.

East Jutland metropolitan area (Danish: Byregion Østjylland) is a potential metropolitan area in Jutland and Funen, Denmark. Aarhus is the most populated town in the region.

The National Planning Report of 2006 published by the Danish Environment Ministry argued that “East Jutland is developing into a coherent area with high population growth and division of labour between the cities in the urban band that extends from Kolding to Randers” and foresaw “the contours of a future million city”. The report recommended dialogue about future development between the state, the region and the municipalities. .^[1]^[2]

In the next National Planning Report of 2013, the area was split into East Jutland North (Danish: Østjylland Nord) and the Triangle Region (Danish: Trekantsområdet). The municipalities in the two subregions cooperate as Business Region Aarhus and the Triangle Region respectively.^[3]^[4] End of draft paragraphs.

I now know more than I need to about the "Landplansredegørelser": Danish Wikipedia says they are published at the beginning of each parliament. The article about "etableringen af en politisk ramme-struktur" says 2006 was the first and the 2006 document was published in 2008. There are discussions of "Landplansredegørelse" 2018 online, so perhaps it will be published in 2020.TSventon (talk) 12:28, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Article now updated as I suggested on 14 January.TSventon (talk) 11:28, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ See "Aarhus Kommune og etableringen af en politisk ramme-struktur for den østjyske byregion".
^ See "Landsplanredegørelse 2006", p. 20.
^ See "Den Østjyske Millionby", p. 13-15.
^ See "Landsplanredegørelse 2013", p. 23.

.

[1] "byregionoestjylland.dk". www.byregionoestjylland.dk.

[Press_Release_B_Sep_18-2] "Potentialerne ved et faelles strukturbillede for den ostjyske-millionby skal undersoeges" [The potential for a common structure model for the East Jutland Million City will be examined] (in Danish). businessregionaarhus.dk. Retrieved 10 January 2019.

[Press_Release_T_Sep_18-3] "Arkitektskole skal kigge på potentialerne i trekantområdet og Aarhus" [School of Architecture will investigate possibilities in Triangle Region and Aarhus] (in Danish). trekantomraadet.dk. Retrieved 10 January 2019.

[4] See "Aarhus Kommune og etableringen af en politisk ramme-struktur for den østjyske byregion".

[5] See "Landsplanredegørelse 2006", p. 20.

[DØM-6] See "Den Østjyske Millionby", p. 13-15.

[7] See "Landsplanredegørelse 2013", p. 23.

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