Talk:EMLL 1st Anniversary Show
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Storylines section
[edit]Would things have been as advanced as the standardised text for this section describes, in Mexico in 1934? 2.26.165.77 (talk) 21:44, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
- Heels and faces and predetermined outcomes goes all the way back to the early days of professional wrestling, definitely applied in 1934. MPJ-DK (talk) 01:01, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
- Worked finishes are as old as the hills and Heels and faces in their modern form existed by the 1920s I'll grant you (although there were still many neutrals at that point) but as far as "scripted feuds, plots and storylines" - booking was still fairly crude at this point. Agreeing on a result was about as far as it got. They didn't have backstage angles etc (unless it was something real that happened backstage). 2.24.71.253 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:58, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
- That is true, but nothing in the article states it had to be backstage - hell to this day in Mexico most of the storylines play out in the ring, befored, during or after the match. It was still a "scripted feud" back then, not two people pissed off at each other, it was still plotted out that Luchador X win a trios match, then Luchador Y got revenge by winning a singles match etc. and "Los Espantos turning on El Santo" or whatever is still a storyline. Yes the "presentation" may be slightly different, but it's the same basic concepts. MPJ-DK (talk) 16:48, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
- Duo tag matches were a rare novelty in 1934, let alone trios/six-man. Nobody really did turns either at that point. The few confirmed heels (such as the Dirty Dusek Brothers or George Zaharias "The crying Greek from Cripple Creek") and few confirmed babyface heroes who specialised in battling villians (such as Ed Don George or late-period Earl Caddock) were assumed to be stuck in their ways for life. Titles were about the only thing going at the time where one match set up another match for a later date. 2.24.71.253 (talk) 00:18, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- And? there were still heels, faces and feuds. It's still as valid as today. MPJ-DK (talk) 03:29, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- There were no storylines worthy of the name, and no feuds (except real life ones like Lewis vs Londos). Certainly no more than in boxing. The one-size-fits-all disclaimer breaks down for the wrestling of the earlier decades of the 20th century and back into the 19th. 165.225.81.34 (talk) 08:37, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- "Worthy of the name"? Sorry I am not familiar with this arbitrary "worthiness" definition. As I said - there were still heels and faces and storylines. That they were not as elaborate, clear cut or sophisticated as later years does not negate that they were there. The text does not imply a certain level, just that wrestling was pre-determined, that each wrestler play their part and that storylines led to some matches. Considering EMLL held weekly shows each Friday leading up to the show are you stating that you know for a fact that there was no build to the anniversary show? That it was just "Well here are some random matches"? MPJ-DK (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- "Worthy of the name" is an expression, meaning in this case you might at a stretch be able to call some label some promotion as storylines but it never really amounted to the kind of "soap opera" booking of later decades. Insofar as there was any ongoing narrative, it didn't relate to grudges or people stealing each others' partners - it would have been presented as a simple competitive chain of people challenging for belts, people trying to get equal for a previous defeat, people moving on up the ladder to tougher opposition, that sort of thing. No grudges (except maybe legit backstage ones) only a tiny smattering of gimmicks and smattering of heels and the occasional full-blown babyface (mainly of the "policeman" variety).
- "Worthy of the name" is an expression, meaning in this case you might at a stretch be able to call some label some promotion as storylines but it never really amounted to the kind of "soap opera" booking of later decades. Insofar as there was any ongoing narrative, it didn't relate to grudges or people stealing each others' partners - it would have been presented as a simple competitive chain of people challenging for belts, people trying to get equal for a previous defeat, people moving on up the ladder to tougher opposition, that sort of thing. No grudges (except maybe legit backstage ones) only a tiny smattering of gimmicks and smattering of heels and the occasional full-blown babyface (mainly of the "policeman" variety).
- "Worthy of the name"? Sorry I am not familiar with this arbitrary "worthiness" definition. As I said - there were still heels and faces and storylines. That they were not as elaborate, clear cut or sophisticated as later years does not negate that they were there. The text does not imply a certain level, just that wrestling was pre-determined, that each wrestler play their part and that storylines led to some matches. Considering EMLL held weekly shows each Friday leading up to the show are you stating that you know for a fact that there was no build to the anniversary show? That it was just "Well here are some random matches"? MPJ-DK (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- There were no storylines worthy of the name, and no feuds (except real life ones like Lewis vs Londos). Certainly no more than in boxing. The one-size-fits-all disclaimer breaks down for the wrestling of the earlier decades of the 20th century and back into the 19th. 165.225.81.34 (talk) 08:37, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- And? there were still heels, faces and feuds. It's still as valid as today. MPJ-DK (talk) 03:29, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- Duo tag matches were a rare novelty in 1934, let alone trios/six-man. Nobody really did turns either at that point. The few confirmed heels (such as the Dirty Dusek Brothers or George Zaharias "The crying Greek from Cripple Creek") and few confirmed babyface heroes who specialised in battling villians (such as Ed Don George or late-period Earl Caddock) were assumed to be stuck in their ways for life. Titles were about the only thing going at the time where one match set up another match for a later date. 2.24.71.253 (talk) 00:18, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- That is true, but nothing in the article states it had to be backstage - hell to this day in Mexico most of the storylines play out in the ring, befored, during or after the match. It was still a "scripted feud" back then, not two people pissed off at each other, it was still plotted out that Luchador X win a trios match, then Luchador Y got revenge by winning a singles match etc. and "Los Espantos turning on El Santo" or whatever is still a storyline. Yes the "presentation" may be slightly different, but it's the same basic concepts. MPJ-DK (talk) 16:48, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
- Worked finishes are as old as the hills and Heels and faces in their modern form existed by the 1920s I'll grant you (although there were still many neutrals at that point) but as far as "scripted feuds, plots and storylines" - booking was still fairly crude at this point. Agreeing on a result was about as far as it got. They didn't have backstage angles etc (unless it was something real that happened backstage). 2.24.71.253 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:58, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
- I live in Britain and that is what most of our wrestling was still like as late as the 70s or in some cases even later.165.225.81.34 (talk) 18:56, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- It doesn't say "soap opera" anywhere, it says nothing about "stealing partners" or anything, that is not really very prevalent in lucha libre in general even in 2019 - all the things you described are "storylines" since none of it is actually legitimate and thus falls under the decription. And with your frame of reference being the UK I have a hard time seeing how you can state things so categorically about what did or did not happen in Mexico in 1934. MPJ-DK (talk) 19:16, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- Here is what wrestling was like in America at around that time - and that is in New York territory which was always ahead of the crest in terms of working and where many modern memes of pro wrestling had been develeoped by Jack Pfefer and Toots Mondt over the previous decade. Compared even to this, Mexican pro Wrestling of the early 30s would have been far more primitive, still in the style of Stecher vs Caddock.19:32, 30 November 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.81.34 (talk)
- I see two wrestlers playing their roles in a professional wrestling match, through which they tell a story. Are you saying that this bout had no build to it at all? The format may have changed, but the concepts are basically the same. Unless you are saying "Everyone were just themselves", "matches were booked randomly" and "there was no hype to build up main event matches"? That it was "Christos Theofilou" who competed, not Jim Londos. That George Hackenschmidt's bear hug genuinely rendered people unconscious? By 1934 professional wrestling was genuinely fully staged and scripted - you seem to be arguing that it is not, which I have not seen anything to back it up. MPJ-DK (talk) 21:02, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- The buildup would be much the same as for a boxing match. People thought it would be good to see two opponents get it on, so they did. End of "story." And there is plenty of evidence of what things were like for promotion of wrestling in the 30s in newspaper archives.2.24.71.253 (talk) 01:34, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- I see two wrestlers playing their roles in a professional wrestling match, through which they tell a story. Are you saying that this bout had no build to it at all? The format may have changed, but the concepts are basically the same. Unless you are saying "Everyone were just themselves", "matches were booked randomly" and "there was no hype to build up main event matches"? That it was "Christos Theofilou" who competed, not Jim Londos. That George Hackenschmidt's bear hug genuinely rendered people unconscious? By 1934 professional wrestling was genuinely fully staged and scripted - you seem to be arguing that it is not, which I have not seen anything to back it up. MPJ-DK (talk) 21:02, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- Here is what wrestling was like in America at around that time - and that is in New York territory which was always ahead of the crest in terms of working and where many modern memes of pro wrestling had been develeoped by Jack Pfefer and Toots Mondt over the previous decade. Compared even to this, Mexican pro Wrestling of the early 30s would have been far more primitive, still in the style of Stecher vs Caddock.19:32, 30 November 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.81.34 (talk)
- It doesn't say "soap opera" anywhere, it says nothing about "stealing partners" or anything, that is not really very prevalent in lucha libre in general even in 2019 - all the things you described are "storylines" since none of it is actually legitimate and thus falls under the decription. And with your frame of reference being the UK I have a hard time seeing how you can state things so categorically about what did or did not happen in Mexico in 1934. MPJ-DK (talk) 19:16, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
- I live in Britain and that is what most of our wrestling was still like as late as the 70s or in some cases even later.165.225.81.34 (talk) 18:56, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Okay so let's take an example from the time. The World Champion comes to NY to face the #1 Contender in a title match, just like in Boxing right? Well except that none of it is "real", the champion won the belt because he was booked to win, the #1 contender didn't actually "earn" anything. Each of them play a character, they act out a storyline leading up to and during the match. Unless you want to claim that wrestling was not pre-determined in 1934 there is no argument to remove the statements in the article. MPJ-DK (talk) 03:12, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- The "character" they "played" back then was basically just themselves and the "storyline" they "acted out" back then was just winning previous big matches and getting publicity for their big match on posters and in newspapers. Even an angle such as someone turning up at their opponent's press conference to issue a challenge was relatively rare in 1934. Here is a state of the art "Promo" being cut by newly crowned World champion Jim Londos in June 1930. It's hardly "This is the belt that makes you feel like the best" territory. The art of Working was still in a primitive state even in the NY territory where most of modern working was invented, let alone in Mexico.2.24.71.253 (talk) 07:54, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- Primitive or not, it was worked. MPJ-DK (talk) 10:28, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, but hardly "storylines" - Shikat beat Londos for a vacant title in '29. Now a year later Londos gets a return match. He wins the belt. The End. Not more of a "storyline" than Londos's little victory speech could be called a "Promo" And that was as good as it got in New York, the territory what led the way in the art of working both then and decades later, never mind Mexico at that time.165.225.81.34 (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- As simple as they were, they were still storylines. MPJ-DK (talk) 18:55, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, but hardly "storylines" - Shikat beat Londos for a vacant title in '29. Now a year later Londos gets a return match. He wins the belt. The End. Not more of a "storyline" than Londos's little victory speech could be called a "Promo" And that was as good as it got in New York, the territory what led the way in the art of working both then and decades later, never mind Mexico at that time.165.225.81.34 (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- Primitive or not, it was worked. MPJ-DK (talk) 10:28, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
- And I am talking EMLL in Mexico City specifically here who promoted weekly shows in the same building for a year prior to this show. MPJ-DK (talk) 15:29, 30 November 2019 (UTC)