Talk:E-flat clarinet

I did a fairly extensive edit, cleaning up some typos, reorganizing things a little more sensibly, and adding some wiki links. I cut a few non NPOV passages, and also a reference to the existence of E flat clarinet concertos -- the latter pending verification. What concertos are there? -- Rsholmes 19:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Responding to my own question, so far my online searching hasn't turned up any concerti originally scored for E-flat clarinet. However, I did learn about the baroque composer Johann Melchior Molter's six clarinet concerti -- probably the earliest extant clarinet concerti, written for 2- or 3-key clarinet in D. -- Rsholmes 03:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I realised I had scanned a page for another purpose that contained an Eb clarinet solo. There's more extensive usages later, including an interesting Eb clarinet duet above Bb clarinets and a few other instruments. I could provide an image of that if desired.

It's too convoluted to go into in a caption, but The Sapphire Necklace Overture only survives in military band arrangement. It may not be strictly accurate to say "Arthur Sullivan" calls for it, but it's probably an acceptable shorthand for "Arthur Sullivan or the arranger of the only surviving orchestration of The Sapphire Necklace Overture" Adam Cuerden ^talk 05:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this in some way a particularly notable composition or E-flat clarinet solo? Nice idea, putting a scan of the music in as a thumbnail, but I'd rather see this list confined to significant examples, and I'm not aware that this is one. -- Rsholmes 11:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted this. If you think there are good reasons to restore it, let me hear them. -- Rsholmes 17:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the section on solo material, I believe that some mistake has been made with the Rabaud piece: no such work exists for e flat clarinet, It's written for b flat. F. Conway —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.130.35 (talk) 00:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Orchestral music utilizing the E♭ (or D) clarinet

Do all of these pieces contain examples of significant E-flat or D clarinet solos? Or are some of them, literally, "orchestral music using the E-flat clarinet"? If the latter, why are we listing these? There must be hundreds or thousands of pieces that use the E-flat clarinet, and I don't see a list of these as being useful. I propose renaming this section "Notable solo literature for the E♭ (or D) clarinet" or something along those lines (suggestions welcome) and limiting it to concerti and solo pieces originally written for the instrument, and orchestral pieces with notable solos (e.g. Til Eulenspiegel). I am not, however, familiar enough with all the pieces listed to know for sure which ones do and do not fall into this category, so some input would be welcome. -- Rsholmes 15:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I did confirm that On the Town (which was just added) does in fact have an E♭ clarinet in its full orchestration, but I'm not qualified to judge how significant it is. If you do apply the 'notable solo literature' test to the list, you'll need to find reliable sources to support the calls. -- Donald Albury 15:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Information lacking?

E.g. ... Range, whether the transposition is up a third or down a sixth, how it differs from the alto clarinet in E♭ ...

Other works specifically for E♭ clarinet- Tre Pezzi (1954) by Giacinto Scelsi [1], Suite of Four Dances (with piano) by William Bolcom . [2]. (Hrm. Molter six clarinet concertos- 1740s. Johann Stamitz's prob. later, yes.) Schissel | Sound the Note! 16:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, clarified the transposing nature, I hope. I've added the Scelsi and Bolcom pieces. Also commented out the "quartini" sentence: I'm not sure it's correct, and I'm not sure it's relevant. -- Rsholmes 01:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

"The E♭ clarinet is required to play at the top of its range for much of the time"

Yes, but what is the playing range of the instrument??? This article lacks some really basic information. Esn (talk) 20:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Prevalence of D clarinet

Some of the statements made about the D clarinet seem slightly at odds with what I've read elsewhere. For example, Basil Tschaikov, "The high clarinets", in The Cambridge Companion to the Clarinet:

... the D clarinet ... has continued to have a considerable solo, chamber music and orchestral repertoire ... (p. 43)

F. Geoffrey Rendall, The Clarinet (Third edition):

... the clarinet in D which is little known and used this side of the Rhine [emphasis mine] ... So English, French, and American players argue and content themselves with the E flat, transposing the parts for the instrument in D a semitone down. (pp. 122-3)

to which the third edition's editor, Philip Bate, adds

This was probably quite true in 1954. Since then, however, there seems to have been some revival in demand for D clarinets in the West. Today both Buffet and Leblanc list them as part of their very extensive ranges, and recently some are known to have been available in London. (p. 125)

Compare that with this article:

from the end of that century to the present it has become less common than the clarinets in E♭, B♭, A, or even C

It seems silly to compare its frequency of use with the B♭ and A clarinets; their use is quite different, and the E♭ is much less commonly used than them as well. I would suggest omitting these two clarinets entirely from the comparison. As for the frequency of its use relative to the E♭ and C, is there any solid basis for this statement or is it just someone's personal impression? And if the latter, does it take into account the implied greater degree of use outside of England, France, and America? In particular, given that they are again used for different purposes, I wonder how solid a basis there is for the claim that D clarinets are less common (worldwide!) than C clarinets. It may well be true, but is it verifiable? -- Rsholmes 00:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I tried to add more information about the use of the D and wrote around the sections on its popularity. I think that it is less common than the C, but I don't know of a source which could prove it. Despite Basil Tschaikov's statement, I don't think he mentions any recent pieces written for D -- so he could just be saying that it's historically still an important instrument. FGR and Bate seem to be arguing around word choice. FGR's "Little known" seems an exaggeration: if you're commonly transposing parts in D then it has to be known in some sense. While Bate's evidence for a revival seems of the flimsiest sort, that Buffet and Leblanc list them in their catalogs and you can buy one in London? Leblanc also has an A♭ in their catalog but that doesn't necessarily mean there is much demand for it.

One of the most telling notes about the D's rarity is that Hancock in the E♭ studies book mentions that he doesn't own one. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 13:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

My main point in quoting Rendall's comment is that his repeated reference to its lack of use "west of the Rhine" carries the implication that it is more used elsewhere, so its prevalence in America, England, and France is not reflective of its prevalence in the world. A quick look on German and Italian eBay suggests the E♭ is more common there, too, for what that may be worth. And I think Bate's point is not that the D is in "much demand" but that it is in more demand than it was in 1954. As for Hancock, his non ownership of a D may be of interest but hardly constitutes significant evidence of its worldwide prevalence relative to other sizes.

Again, everything in the article may be accurate for all I know. But it makes a specific quantitative claim -- D clarinet is "less common" (worldwide, by implication) "than E♭, B♭, A, or even C" -- for which I know of no solid evidence, at least in the case of E♭ (very probably true) and C (??). Rsholmes 14:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

"No solid evidence" Come on! The clarinet in D is as common as a sarrusophone for all practical purposes. Someone should contact Selmer in Paris or the States to see how many they make if you are obsessed with an answer from an authoritative source. I am certain the number is neglible. -- Note: I also added a citation request to the statement that posits the clarinet in D was ever more « popular in bands » than those in C, F, or E-flat. I don't believe it. -- If the clarinet in D were so popular, it would have its own article in Wikipédia, but of course, it does not warrant it. Charvex (talk) 05:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Addition of a ref by its author - exception to WP:COI?

Several recent edits added a reference written by someone with the same name as the Wikipedian who added it. I'm sure it's good-faith editing, probably a valid source for reference, and the person is apparently highly qualified and knowledgeable. So I don't know that WP:COI needs to be invoked. - Special-T (talk) 16:45, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Name in Italian

Thing is, they are called quartino in Italian, the terzino is the old name for the old clarinet in F not used since the mid-19th century, and the sestino is the A♭ piccolo. Jon (talk) 01:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

My Adriano Amore book finally arrived! The term terzino was a generic term for any of the small clarinets in D, E♭, F, G or A♭, and the F clarinet was the quintino (a fifth above the B♭ clarinet). Amore cites treatises and dictionaries by Bellini (1844), Orsini (1877), Gatti (1878) Vessela (1955), Magistrelli (2000), and Gullì (2003), most of which are also cited in Rice (2017). Amore also notes (p.14) that Gatti considered the term sestino (used in bands for the A♭) an error, and that it should be settimino, which was sometimes also used to refer to the A♭, but also the even smaller B♭ octave clarinet (Magistrelli 2000). — Jon (talk) 23:55, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Top of range

I just reverted an edit that changed the info in a cited sentence. As to the actual content of the edit, it's more likely that the highest recommended (written) note for this higher-pitched instrument would be lower than that for a Bb or A clarinet. Many fingering charts for Bb clarinet show it to C7 (although it could be argued that G6 is a reasonably practical upper limit here also). Adler recommends G6 as the highest practical pitch to use on the Eb BTW. - Special-T (talk) 17:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I put in a range diagram that indicates this better (I think). - Special-T (talk) 17:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that C₇, while obtainable by a proficient player, is too high for an indicative tessitura of the E♭ clarinet. It is the vibration modes of the reed that constrain the upper ranges of clarinets more so than the available length of the air column (there's a good bit about the physics of that somewhere in Baines I think). However, Alder gives its written range as E₃–A₆ in his 4th edition of The Study of Orchestration, and notes that "the safest upper note is G₆, although A above that is certainly possible." There are also fairly standard orchestral excerpts that justify the upper tessitura limit to be (written) A₆ rather than G₆, e.g. the A₆ in Benjamin Britten's "Sunday Morning" from the Four Sea Interludes, the A♭₆ in Strauss Till Eulenspiegel, an A₆ in Mahler Symphony No. 9, etc.. — Jon (talk) 00:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe something like:

— Jon (talk) 02:30, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

References