Talk:Dunderberg Mountain

Not "Southernmost"

I know it's footnoted as "southermost" hill on west side of Hudson River in Hudson Highlands, yet it's incorrect. The region is commonly defined more broadly than this.

Consider this from U.S. Geological Survey Web page:

"Harriman State Park was established in 1900 as part of the Palisades Interstate Park Commission. It covers 46,181 acres of forested mountainous terrain within the Hudson Highlands region in Orange and Rockland Counties."

It's quite true that the same Web site says "In general, the name Hudson Highlands refers to the low mountains or high hills that border the Hudson River north of Peekskill and south of Newburgh, New York."

But if Dunderberg is as claimed, then the Timp, Pyngyp Mountain, Buckberg, etc., etc., are NOT in the Hudson Highlands, which its face, is irrational and incomprehensible.

Calamitybrook (talk) 23:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I think I've totally screwed up this commentary. Sorry.

There were some very intelligent comments, but due to my stupidity, nothing is now clear. Sorry..............

Irrational and incomprehensible as it may be, them's the facts. From Wikipedia:Verifiability: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.

The source you quote doesn't disagree with the sources already given. If you have reliable sources that specifically put the Timp or Pyngyp in the Hudson Highlands, you are free to provide them and we'll see what we can hammer out. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 23:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Sterling Forest

The southernmmost point in "Sterling Forest" appears to be at roughly N 41.13484 W 74.25968

Dunderberg summit: N 41.28535 W 73.98700

Below are eight sources (among many others) that place Sterling Forest within the "Hudson Highlands." Ergo, Dunderberg is not the most southerly hill in the HH on the west side of the Hudson.

Palisades Park Conservancy: "The area spans the towns of Tuxedo, Warwick and Monroe in Orange County and represents the last large unbroken habitat in the Hudson Highlands..." [[1]]

Rutgers University: "Another goal of the new video and web site is to increase educational interest in Harriman State Park, Bear Mountain State Park, and Sterling Forest by turning this geologically rich area of the Hudson Highlands into an outdoor classroom for urban educators and students." [[2]]

NY Gov. George Pataki, as quoted by NJ Chapter of Sierra Club: "Sterling Forest contains the single largest block of intact forest in the entire Hudson Highlands area,... " [[3]]

NY Flora Association club trip: [[4]]

Middletown NY daily newspaper: "Sterling Forest is part of the stretch of wilderness in southern New York and northern New Jersey known as the Hudson Highlands." [[5]]

New York State Dept of Environmental Conservation: "The property is part of the Hudson Highlands geographic area stretching from Pennsylvania through southeast New York and northern New Jersey to northwest Connecticut." [[6]]

NY/NJ Trail Conference: "The Sterling Forge property fits like a keystone into Sterling Forest State Park. It locks up the largest contiguous forest in the Hudson Highlands, securing its integrity at the core." [[7]]

From review of book concerning Sterling Forest preservation efforts: "Sterling Forest comprises 20,000 acres of the New York State's scenic Hudson Highlands." [[8]]

You're using those statements to make a logical leap and draw your own conclusion. That's original research. You need to find sources that specifically name peaks that are south of Dunderberg, and specifically state that those peaks are part of the Hudson Highlands. The sources in the article now specifically state that Dunderberg is the southern point.

It may be helpful to come up with what you think is the southernmost peak, and start your search that way. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 19:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

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Sterling Forest lies well to the southwest of Dunderberg and includes various named hilltops, but this of course isn't at issue.

Had I arrived at this discovery through my own land survey, without reference to published maps, that would constitute "original research." But the coordinates are supplied by Acme Mapper.

For futher reference, here is boundary map for Sterling Forest offered by the state of NY: [[9]]

Numerous authoritative secondary sources (those listed above and elsewhere) clearly show that Sterling Forest is held to be part of the Hudson Highlands. (Is there disagreement on this? If so, please explain.)

These various points being, I think, clearly the case, to say Dunderberg is the southernmost hilltop of the Hudson Highlands is inaccurate. Perhaps one could say it is "by certain narrow definitions" the most southerly, but even that is dubious.

I might vaguely propose something like "the mountain stands at the southern point at which the Hudson River cuts deeply through the highlands.... or something like that..though it seems gratuitous...

Here is something on which to loosely model such a statement:

"From Newburgh to Peekskill the river crosses the mountainous and forested Hudson Highlands in a deep, scenic gorge." [[10]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calamitybrook (talk • contribs)

It's original research because you are saying:

• Sterling Forest is south of Dunderberg
• Sterling Forest is part of the Hudson Highlands
• Therefore there are other peaks further to the south

There are serious logical gaps in there. And the fact that you need a logical progression at all means it is original research. Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research.

I do think part of the problem is that, colloquially, that part of the New York-New Jersey Highlands is often called the Hudson Highlands. Sterling Forest is part of the Ramapo Mountains, which are in turn part of the Appalachians, but they often get lumped in together. There's no absolute authority that has defined the boundaries of the Hudson Highlands, which does make it hard to pin down at times.

But all of that is neither here nor there, because all I'm asking for are references specifically stating that some other peak is the southernmost. The article as it is isn't based on my opinion any more than it's based on yours. If you have reliable sources that name some other peak as being the furthest south, I'm 100% on board. Otherwise, as I said, it's not what you know, it's what has been published. If you're right, just find specific citations. It's not like this is newly discovered territory. With 400 years of history since Henry Hudson, there should be something in writing to expressly support your position. Sources naming Dunderberg as southernmost go back for centuries, and I could easily have added twice as many as I did. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 00:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• I want to add that I think you've done a lot of good work on New York articles over the past year, and I'm sure you know quite a bit more about this stuff than I do. I'm all set to agree with you here, if you can give me a source. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 01:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

But

• I'm not saying Sterling Forest is south of Dunderberg. I'm quoting calculations of the USGS.
• I'm not saying Sterling Forest is part of the Hudson Highlands. I'm referring to authoritative sources.

You imply there are no hilltops within Sterling Forest? Why?

If a reliable source establishes beyond doubt that Greenwich Village is in Manhattan and another source that establishes with equal certainty that Manhattan is in New York City.....It is no longer a matter of opinion that GV is in NYC. It is not original research because the conclusion adds no new information to that contained in the sources.

This whole discussion arises because Dunderberg is indeed the most southerly hilltop within the Highlands that lies directly adjacent to the Hudson River (discounting "Hook Mountain"). The "gorge" between Peekskill and Newburg is certainly a defining characteristic, but not the only characteristic of the Hudson Highlands. I think something like that, inserted in the article, would solve the problem.

Calamitybrook (talk) 01:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Your Greenwich Village analogy isn't comparable, because the conclusion you are drawing makes unsupported assumptions. Furthermore, it would be very easy to provide sources that specifically state that Greenwich Village is in New York City. That's all I'm asking you to do. This has nothing to do with my views about the topography of Sterling Forest.

No amount of arguing back and forth will eliminate your need to provide reliable sources that specifically refute the ones I've already provided. If someone asks for sources, you can't argue about it. There's no shortage of books written about the area; just find one that gives a different peak that distinction. That's all you have to do. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 03:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

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That the Hudson Highlands extend numerous miles to the southwest of Dunderberg is supported. So the unsupported assumption is that there are hilltops within this southwesterly extension?

Anyway, an interesting exercise in proving the obvious.

Unfortunately I'm currently separated from my personal library which includes a couple of works by the NY/NJ Trail Conference that are pretty good on geography for the area. They also publish numerous very good maps.

I've found a couple of items:

This site identifies Buckberg Mountain as a "feature" the Hudson Highlands.

http://www.osiny.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Places_HudsonRiverValley&printer_friendly=1

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The following document makes several relevant references: http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~henrigeo/research-materials/Land%20Type%20Association%20Description.pdf

Page 225, Fig 3-26, map outlines Hudson Highlands Fig 3-28 shows photo of Sterling Forest in section on Hudson Highlands; Fig 3-29 is photo of Dunderberg.

Page 231 identifies Belevale Mt., Orange County, as within Hudson Highlands

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This source from NY/NJ Botany Club, Identifies Dater Mountain, near Sloatsburg, as part of Hudson Highlands. http://nynjctbotany.org/whudson/nydater.html

I assume I don't need to provide coordinates for these places but they can be made available.

Calamitybrook (talk) 01:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

No, you don't need to provide coordinates. You just need to provide something that says, "__________ is the southernmost peak in the Hudson Highlands." No amount of logical progressions, no amount of arguing, nothing else will suffice. It's all original research. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 03:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Bit of confusion?

At issue is not "what is the southernmost hill" in the Hudson Highlands, but is rather identifying Dunderberg as such, given that the region so obviously extends far to the southwest of Dunderberg.

It should be clear enough now, that Duderberg is NOT "the most southerly" because outside sources (above) describe two other hilltops in HH that are farther south and west.

We have at least a couple of authoritative maps that provide at a glance, outlines of Hudson Highlands region, which by definition (and according to the map), is continuously hilly. Separately, and merely to supplement above references, USGS maps identify dozens of named hills within the region that are more southerly than Dunderberg.

So let us slightly improve the accuracy of this article.

To identify Dunderberg as the most significant hill on the western bank of the Hudson near the point which the river enters the highlands is descriptive and accurate. Moreover, it conveys the essential idea intended by the currently inaccurate statement.

Certainly never my intent to identify "most southerly" hill. I doubt such a statement in this case would be useful or even possible.

Calamitybrook (talk) 05:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, well, I tried to compromise and clearly that still wasn't good enough. So please tell me what was inaccurate about the compromise version.

I also see you're insistent on calling it a "hill". Do we really need to go into that, too? Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 07:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Difference between geological Hudson Highlands and sociocultural Hudson Highlands

I think what's confusing Calamitybrook here is that in the geological sense, the Highlands are considered to extend as far as Pochuck Mountain to the southwest (If someone wants a chapter and verse on this, I think the current Appalachian Trail guidebook says as much). However, around here, and in the NYNJTC hiking community, the Highlands are generally understood as the mountains along the river in that narrow area of Dutchess, Orange, Putnam, Rockland and Westchester counties. When Scenic Hudson put together the Hudson Highlands Multiple Resource Area MPS for the National Register of Historic Places, the submitted properties were in that region ... none further east than Old Albany Post Road and none further west than the Deer Hill region of the village of Cornwall-on-Hudson. None further south than the Bear Mountain Highway and none further north than Dutchess Manor. I would personally define the HH as the area roughly bounded by Sour Mountain at the northeast, Storm King at the northwest, Route 32 on the west and Fahnestock State Park on the east, Dunderberg Mountain to the southwest and Camp Smith to the southeast. Daniel Case (talk) 19:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Better Because

Deleted lede (see below)

• Puts increased emphasis on the Dunderberg per se, rather than merely its relationship with other areas, by immediately alerting reader to its historical significance and elevation.

• Better conveys the relationship of Dunderberg to the Hudson River and its highlands by introducing active voice and the phrasing "where the river enters the Hudson Highlands from the south," helping to evoke the gorge-like quality of the area.

• Requires only one point of the compass, south, rather than two, making it more simple and thus easier to comprehend.

• Eliminates pointless confusion about "southernmost on west bank" which creates an arbitrary category of unclear significance. Source above, in any case (Open Space Institute), established Buckberg as "feature" of Hudson Highlands. It lies near the west bank of Hudson, to the south of Dunderberg. Don't know if Buckberg is "southernmost on west" but it's obvious that Dunderberg cannot be.

• If point A on a river is above point B, it's generally upstream. This potential distraction is reduced with the phrase "rising X feet above Jones Point."

• Discusses physical geography in one sentence, and political geography in another. The previous version needlessly mixed these two aspects in the second sentence.

• Hill is accurate, and quite unlike "peak" or "mountain," conveys added and useful information that Dunderberg is a landform of modest stature.

"Hill" has no distinct empirical definition in the English language, whereas there are plenty of reliable sources (not to mention its own name) to indicate that Dunderberg is considered a mountain. I think you're just being deliberately obtuse on that point.

Furthermore, Buckberg is not on the west bank of the Hudson River. That it is "near" it is your opinion. There are enough references to the effect that Dunderberg is the southernmost, and I'm really tired of debating this with you. I've tried to compromise, but if you absolutely refuse, I guess we're going to have to take this to dispute resolution. I'm pretty confident about it, since I'm the only one with any actual sources to specifically support my position. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 17:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I've put up a brief request for comment (neutrally worded) on both Wiki Mountains and Hudson Valley project pages.

Calamitybrook (talk) 18:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is preferred lede:

Dunderberg Mountain is a historic hilltop that rises about 1,066 feet (325 m) above Jones Point, New York, where the Hudson River enters the Hudson Highlands from the south. .[1][2][3][4] Dunderberg is entirely within Bear Mountain State Park and part of the town of Stony Point, New York in Rockland County.

Calamitybrook (talk) 19:07, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

To sum up for the record, my position is:

• Sources state is the southernmost HH peak on the west bank of the Hudson; no sources have refuted this.
• The drawn-out chain of logic used to dispute the sources is original research.
• It is widely agreed to be a mountain in almost every available source (and marked as such on official maps such as USGS and NYNJTC).
• The lead as proposed by Calamitybrook is, simply, badly written. The first sentence is not only inaccurate—the Hudson River does not enter the Hudson Highlands from the south (or, to be accurate, not only from the south)—it is also needlessly complicated to the point of weasel wording. There's even an extraneous period. The second sentence lists the location as city-state-county, rather than city-county-state as would be logical. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 19:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Stopped by and cleaned up some stuff. I work mostly on Mountain articles and the sources used are considered very accurate. I think it might be good to consider that Dunderberg Mountain is a mountain and has multiple peaks even though the USGS identifies one peak which defines its coordinates. --DRoll (talk) 22:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

thanks for adding coordinates, etc. Calamitybrook (talk) 00:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing for Lede Sentence

There are four sources for lede sentence. Perhaps the sources are best included in the body of the article, where these points are best developed.

Regardless of above question, one may mention interesting point regarding one of the sources, "Walking the Hudson Batt to Bear."

This may be a culturally significant source (personally once wanted to own), but is potentially unreliable in some regards, and might therefore be omitted.

Regarding Dunderberg the work is flatly contradictory by stating both that the Hudson Highlands are located on either side of Haverstraw Bay, and also that their southerly limit is Dunderberg. Both statements cannot be correct, and one of these statements logically contradicts the "Dunderberg" lede.

By way of a check on its reliability, this work also says, incorrectly, that the Long Path extends from the George Washington Bridge to the Adirondacks, while it actually now ends in Thatcher Park WWS of Albany.

In my view, the author took a number of Literary Liberties, being in Love with aLiteration. Which is Whatever... But not a Concise Criteria for Communication.

Separately, the other (2) checkable source check out, leaving Half (excuse my Math) to good Faith toward one who hath Found at least a Foul one amidst his Four. Will Fain to Further Fragen.

Calamitybrook (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Revolutionary War Parties

One or both groups currently mentioned in article used Timp Pass. That's more than a mile from top of Dunderberg and there are two intervening mountain peaks; the Timp and Bald Mountain.

Calamitybrook (talk) 05:26, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought Bald Mountain was part of the Dunderberg, er, massif, for lack of a better word. Choess (talk) 12:08, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right but the term "Dunderberg massif" isn't widely used, or perhaps not used at all.

Timp and Bald Mountain are well-defined places, as is Dunderberg Mountain. They are different. It's like Lhotse, Nuptse and Everest.

Calamitybrook (talk) 16:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Below are four references among many, that show the British used Timp Pass in their attack on Ft Clinton and Montgomery. It's the logical route through this area.

Wars of the Americas By David Marley [[11]]

Bulletin By New York State Museum of Natural History [[12]]

The Hudson By Carl Carmer [[13]]

Studies in Military Geography and Geology By Douglas R. Caldwell et al. [[14]]

One does not preclude the other. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 23:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The Timp and Dunderberg are different places with different names and different coordinates. This being the case, it would seem accurate to distinguish between them. If I said meet me on top of Dunderberg and you went to the top of the Timp, we'd have a problem.

The comment that "this article isn't about Timp Pass" may be true, but it does concern the route used by the Brits and English over the height of land to the north of Haverstraw Bay.

If the article is going to mention two sources that say this route was over Dunderberg, it ought to also note that most others say (more accurately and precisely) that it was through Timp Pass.

This is why I reverted the edit by kafziel.

Calamitybrook (talk) 00:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

None of the sources you list on the Dunderberg talk page refute anything that is already in the article. For example, the first one above completely omits the date of October 6, which (as the source already in the article states) is the date they crossed Dunderberg. Surely you don't think it's impossible that the forces did both? Do you think any army would send a force through a pass without sending scouting forces on the mountains above? The sources already in the article support that and, in fact, so do the ones you listed here. And, as far as I can tell, "Studies in Military Geography" doesn't make any mention whatsoever of the Timp. But this article is not about the Timp anyway, so whatever happened in addition to crossing Dunderberg is not relevant. It wouldn't hurt to make a brief mention of the pass, but it's not an either-or situation and Dunderberg's (very well-sourced) role is of primary concern here. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 00:15, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

"Studies in Military Geography" BTW, has a map on Page 99 that depicts the route discussed in recent versions of the article relative to the Timp and Dunderberg, which I gather Kfzl missed. I've restored it along with other deleted material.

Assuming we want this article to discuss two specific military operations' routes in vicinity of Dunderberg, it ought to be noted that most sources are specific that the relevant part of these routes was through Timp Pass.

The article retains the idea that a few sources instead give some unspecified route "over the Dunderberg." Whether this is through imprecision, unique insight, or other unknown reason I cannot say, and no comment is necessary.

A reasonable person consulting a map might conclude, however, that Timp Pass is not really "over the Dunderberg" though it might be a means to get around or past Dunderberg.

I note Kfzl uploaded a photo of the Timp on Wikipedia and mislabeled it Dunderberg. Seems possible that he undervalues these distinctions.

I've no opinion on whether multiple routes were used -- "in addition" to those reported. I'm unaware of any sources that suggest this. I'd favor adding such material as it relates to Dunderberg.

Sir Henry Clinton apparently refers to Timp Pass as "The Pass of Thunder Hill." Too bad he didn't have a USGS map.[[15]]

See also this map and narrative referring to "circuitous route around Dunderberg" via "defile west of Dunderberg." [[16]]

Calamitybrook (talk) 02:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

And, again, none of those sources say nobody went over Dunderberg. There's no disagreement between them. Whether a "majority" of sources say they went around is your opinion, and it's weasel wording. This doesn't need to be an argument. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 07:15, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Sir Henry's report on the operation he commanded purports to be complete and is detailed and explicit. Must we assume he is mistaken or withholding information?

Yes, there are indeed an endless number of places which the sources, including Sir Henry, don't mention. None for example, claim that nobody went through Las Vegas or over Mount Rushmore.

My personal suspicion currently is, that sources which describe the route as "over the Dunderberg" are merely using imprecise language to refer to a well-documented route. This may be adequate for a generalized history, but less so for a narrowly focused article about Dunderberg.

At present I'm unsure whether any troops went "over the Dunderberg" in the strict sense, and therefore favor some reference to this possibity. It would be helpful if someone had access to NYNJ Trail Conference maps or publications concerning 1777 Trail etc. I imagine these trails were laid out based on careful documentation.

I somewhat like the latest version. Far better etiquette -- than simply hitting the revert button as a means of removing relevant and sourced material that one editor dislikes. I may add some material from Sir Henry's memo etc.

Further, I'd like to tentatively propose that the article include a discussion of Timp and Bald Mountain. This would be useful given obvious confusion (I've gotten a bit mixed up myself while up there) and the fact that all three of these "mountain peaks" do indeed share a common elevational base as well as a bit of history.

I'm a bit uncertain. It may be that separate articles would be more appropriate.

Calamitybrook (talk) 17:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

More comment on KZL's two reverts

I've been rather short on time of late or I'd be participating more actively in the discussion, but I went through some references last night and I have a precis to deliver on the subject. I consulted Myles (Harriman Trails), Howell (Trail Diaries), Stalter (Doodletown), which reproduces a number of early maps, and the NYNJTC trail map.

I referred above to the Dunderberg "massif"; Howell, in fact, uses the term "Dunderberg formation" on at least two separate occasions to refer to Dunderberg sensu lato, i.e., Dunderberg, Bald Mountain, and the Timp together.

I would agree that this article should discuss Dunderberg in the looser sense, although it's reasonable to point out that the summit of Dunderberg sensu stricto is often distinguished from that of the other two peaks. The amount of information available on these mountains is not overwhelming, and it makes more sense to me to discuss all of them in a single article than to spread it thin in three stubs.

That said, a few other interesting things have turned up in my research. Myles claimed that "Bockberg," which he translates as "Goat Mountain," is the old Dutch name for Bald Mountain. This seemed to be a case of confusion with the Buckberg (Howell equates the two names), but Stalter reproduces an old (and admittedly poor) map dated 1896 which locates Bockberg there. Myles uses "Buckberg" correctly elsewhere in the book. So wrong as the usage may be, it's hallowed by tradition and probably warrants a note.

While looking through the maps, I also turned up something interesting. There are, as you probably know, two passes south out of Doodletown: Timp Pass lies between the Timp and West Mountain, and the other pass, to the east, lies between Timp and the remainder of the Dunderberg formation.

Both the routing of the 1777 Trail and Myles' text seem to indicate that the British actually crossed the range over the latter pass, rather than Timp Pass proper. This is also the route over the range showed in the pre-20th Century maps reproduced in Stalter. I need to sign off now, but I hope this provides some food for thought. Choess (talk) 21:46, 11 February 2009

Important comment

Choess comment above is very illuminating and significant......I maybe added some grafs for ease of reading.

Calamitybrook (talk) 23:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, very personally, I find Elizabeth Stalter is an extremetly interesting, but not a reliable source.

Calamitybrook (talk) 22:56, 11 February 2009 (UTC)?

To be clear, I'm making use of Stalter's book because she reprints maps from various numbers of Beers' Atlases. I agree that I would be skeptical of claims from her that contradicted other sources on the pre-1940s history of Doodletown. Choess (talk) 02:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

If you search the map collection at davidrumsey.com for "Rockland", you should be able to find maps 10 and 11 of the 1891 Beers Atlas pretty easily. (You can't direct link to maps in the collection). This shows the road over the mountains running on the east side of the Timp. Interestingly, what we now call the Buckberg is unlabeled on this map, and Bald Mountain, or some eminence just south of it, is labeled "Bockberg," so this error seems to have been very much current in the 1890s. (The 1896 map in Stalter I mentioned before was a road map by a different company.) Choess (talk) 02:58, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Buckberg/Bockberg

This sounds like a bit of understandable nonesense. The USGS map is clear on the question regarding present nomenclature for "Buckberg"...........

So a very simple question...easily answered....is...........where does the current NY/NJ TC map define 1777 trails?

(I've hiked them all, mostly....but haven't really paid much attention and have several times become lost.)

I'm very interested in all this but my maps aren't available to me and am very uncertain.

Calamitybrook (talk) 00:08, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

According to Myles, most of the 1777 Trail follows route taken by Clinton, but part of it to the south is diverted in order to stay on park land. Essentially, the original route came up what was then called the "King's Road" or the "Albany Road" and what is now Bird Hill Road in the Tomkins Lake Colony. The road crossed what is now the lake and climbed up towards the saddle on the east side of the Timp. Shortly after Clinton's route crosses the park boundary, the 1777 Trail comes in from a trailhead to the east on 9W. North of here, 1777 Trail follows the historical route, climbing over the saddle and dropping down into Doodletown to become Pleasant Valley Road. The 1777 West Trail (to Fort Montgomery) and the 1777 East Trail (to Fort Clinton) separate in the middle of Doodletown.

The NYNJTC map shows "Timp Pass" as the lower pass on the west side of the Timp, between the Timp and West Mountain. According to Myles, the Timp Pass Road (which forks off from Pleasant Valley Road/1777 Trail/Clinton's route just south of the ruined bungalow and roofed garage at the south end of Doodletown) was a farmer's road; cattle were driven over the pass and brought down to the Springsteel farm, now Camp Bullowa, on the south side of Buckberg. This farmer's road does not appear on any contemporary maps I know of and it appears to me that the principal route over the mountain to Doodletown, and the one used by Clinton, was the one to the east of the Timp and not through Timp Pass proper. This agrees with Caldwell et al. as well. Choess (talk) 03:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You're right. I'm going to add quote from Sir Henry and explain this.

I think there is enough info available to be explicit regarding the routes.

BTW my comments on Stadler and Buckberg were a bit strong. Mostly I just have a purely personal thing (negative) about Stadler's manner of writing. I don't question her research. On the Buckberg/Bockb issue, I'm sure it's sensible, but personally convinced of its significance.

Calamitybrook (talk) 16:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Expansion

Added some important context on spiral railway that isn't often mentioned. Mauch Chunk RR was a famous attraction of its day and DD RR was (If I may resort to slight hyperbole) like Walt Disney opening a new Disneyland. Partly as a result of added material, the section as presently written will benefit from some reorganization.

The Edison mine material was corrected. Not an aluminum mine, beer cans in the area notwithstanding.

I also added some limited information about the Edison project. BTW I believe it was more an interesting fluke than a viable mine, and happened well after the many mines in the highlands were abandoned as uneconomical. He wanted to test his invention. Apparently the whole thing was in some degree a failure. I've no sources on this, so won't mention.

Calamitybrook (talk) 21:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Geography

I reworked geography some, mainly because I wanted to add USGS nomenclature info. I moved reference to "massif" from intro lede to Geography section where I believe it is most appropriate and can be adequately explained. I did some reorganizing -- at least an effort to minimize jumping back and forth among places.

Not sure about what "Boulderberg" here refers to, as GNIS lists it as alternate name for "Buckberg," which doesn't qualify as part of Dunderberg.

Calamitybrook (talk) 20:39, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Dunderberg Spiral Railway

I count 10 miles of railbed. One reference says 4 miles. The other reference says 15 miles. The article says 12 miles. Brennan says 9 on his web page. This book says 12 miles: http://books.google.com/books?id=EaQA-hHDIg4C&lpg=PA22&ots=ZKz0Iz8SD2&dq=dunderberg%20spiral%20railway&pg=PA22#v=onepage&q=dunderberg%20spiral%20railway&f=false

This book says 10 miles: http://books.google.com/books?id=8bJ6ai_KRL0C&lpg=PA241&ots=ONfjQFMasp&dq=dunderberg%20spiral%20railway&pg=PA240#v=onepage&q=dunderberg%20spiral%20railway&f=false

I wonder what the article should say? I'm going to vote for 10. Anyboyd else have an opinion? RussNelson (talk) 04:00, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Swedish or Dutch

I want to claim that the name Dunderberg comes from the Swedish language, not from the Dutch. Freely translated from Swedish. Dunder = High Noice or loud sound Berg = Mountain 2A02:1406:51:C149:D35:8206:D9ED:8FED (talk) 17:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)