Talk:Dragon

Dragon was nominated as a Language and literature good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (May 7, 2018). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Possible dubiousness of the word "dragon" in descriptions of sea serpent in Canaanite and biblical Hebrew translations

In the Levant section, the Ugaritic Baal Cycle which contains a description of a mythical sea serpent, the possible incorrect word "dragon" is used in describing the

sea-dragon Lōtanu
— Quoted from this version

when no supporting quotes from a corpus of text is given to justify using the word "dragon" as reliable description. The word "dragon" in English carries many connotations and it doesn't seem to be appropriate to use it as it's used in the aforementioned section when describing a sea serpent.

Furthermore, the rest of the section abruptly jumps into the supposed description of the western concept of the word "dragon" in the Hebrew bible when it and the Baal Cycle descriptions should have their own sub-sections.

Partially corrected by adding a paragraph break Jdbtwo (talk) 15:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for the word "dragon" in the biblical Hebrew translations, it seems to be a mistranslation from the obsolete King James translation. For example, in

In the Book of Psalms, Psalm 74, Psalm 74:13–14, the sea-dragon Leviathan, is slain by Yahweh
— Quoted from this version

and in

He will slay the dragon that is in the sea
— Quoted from this version

the word dragon comes from the King James translation for the biblical Hebrew word Tannin which is a mythical "sea monster" or "sea serpent" and which the section conflates with the word "Leviathan", which is another mythical sea serpent. It is clearly evident from the the description of "Tannin" that another sea monster is being described :

translated in the King James Version as "the dragon"
— Quoted from this version

The only citation in the section that lends credence to the word "dragon" as being a correct translation of the Hebrew source text is

Job 41:19–21 states that the Leviathan exhales fire and smoke
— Quoted from this version

but this only applies to "Leviathan." Also, the statement :

Job 41:19–21 states that the Leviathan exhales fire and smoke, making its identification as a mythical dragon clearly apparent
— Quoted from this version

seems a bit dubious to me : There are many types of "monsters" that exhale fire and smoke -- just because a "sea serpent" does, in my opinion, doesn't make it a representation of the western concept of a "dragon."

It seems that the problem comes from the improper use of the word "dragon" as it relates to the Ugaritic Baal Cycle and also the King James mistranslation of "Tannin" as "dragon" and in addition the conflation of the words "Tannin" and "Leviathan."

In my opinion, the whole Levant section seems to be describing "sea serpents" or "sea monsters." Jdbtwo (talk) 15:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead

The last sentence of the lead states that "large extinct or migrating crocodiles bear the closest resemblance" to dragons, and then cites two sources. While I agree with the assertion, the problems I see with this are: 1. Neither source actually includes this info. 2. The info is not mentioned or sourced in the main body of the article, and 3. Sources in the lead are generally frowned upon, as it is assumed the info will be expanded upon and sourced in the larger body of the article, which it is not.

I'm not going to be bold here because I've been very much absent from WP editing four a few years, and much could've changed policy-wise since then, so I request that a more experienced editor take a look. Ditch ∝ 20:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for catching this. I've removed the claim and added more specific reasons in my edit summary.--MattMauler (talk) 15:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Dragon facts" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Dragon facts has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 1 § Dragon facts until a consensus is reached. 1234qwer 1234qwer 4 01:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What species of Pleistocene mammal is the bones of the Wawel dragon at Wawel Cathedral?

Noticed that the image caption says Several bones purported to belong to the Wawel Dragon hang outside Wawel Cathedral, but actually belong to a Pleistocene mammal. but what is the actual species of Pleistocene mammal the bones are from as its not mentioned in either here or in the article for the cathedral 71.173.78.38 (talk) 15:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drake as alternate name

I continue to believe that although drake is technically synonymous, it's not common enough to use in bold at the beginning of the article. I could be convinced to leave it either way, but I do want to seek consensus here regardless. Drake may be common enough in video games and DnD, but it is far from a common way to refer to a dragon. In fact, I suspect the reason for its use in those contexts may be that it is archaic. Additionally, I have never heard or seen it used to refer to Asian dragons, but info about them comprises a large part of this article.--MattMauler (talk) 21:58, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is a rare and archaic usage, and probably does not need to be mentioned in the article. There are a number of other archaic words for dragon, like "worm" and "wyrm", but we don't need to mention every synonym; this is an encyclopedia, not a thesaurus. If it is included, it should probably go in the etymology section, certainly not in the lead sentence. CodeTalker (talk) 22:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drake is a synonym to dragon with the same etymology, see our Wiktionary page. It should be covered in the article. While not as common as dragon, the name is commonly found in modern fantasy media; for example World of Warcraft: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Drake, https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Proto-drake, Dungeons & Dragons etc: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drake Blockhaj (talk) 22:32, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Not as common as dragon" is quite an understatement. Google's ngram viewer shows that "dragon" is used almost 100 times as often as "drake", and almost all instances of "drake" are referring to a proper name, like Sir Francis Drake, or a male duck. I doubt if "drake" in reference to the animal is used even 1/1000 as often as "dragon". Probably "wyrm" is used equally often.

This article is primarily about the mythological animal, not about fantasy literature. I question whether terminology used in fantasy media, which has a brief mention in the last section of this article, should be grounds for inclusion of this rare term in the lead. (Also, while I don't doubt that it is true that the term is used in fantasy media, I assume you know that fandom is not a reliable source.) CodeTalker (talk) 22:53, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]