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Why?

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Why has this article been forked from the main River Dove article (especially since I read that that article is of low importance to the geographers, and only mid-importance to the Derbyshire project :-) Two questionable judgements IMHO.} Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 18:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dovedale itself has a greater interest and importance than the river. 1 million annual visitors to Dovedale makes it notable and significant. The River Dove article was mainly about Dovedale and so it was appropriate that the redirect should be addressed. SilkTork *YES! 10:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is really very little difference in article terms between Dovedale as she is walked (Hartington to Ashbourne) and the full length of the river. Seems silly to split. I propose you remerge :-) Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 13:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dovedale is an area through which the river Dove passes. The Dove is 40 miles in length, and is a river. Dovedale is a place which contains caves and rock formations as well as a three mile stretch of the river. The two are related but are not the same. Discussion of the river Dove would include the source of the river, it's volume flow, it's length and where it terminates. Discussion of Dovedale would not include these things. Discussion of Dovedale would include the physical features related to the area, such as the hills, caves and rock formations, visitor numbers, etc. The articles would have points in common, such as bridges across the river within Dovedale (though not the bridges beyond Dovedale), and so it appropriate that there is a section within each article containing such shared information. But a merge would not be appropriate. SilkTork *YES! 15:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh Dear - now I'm even more confused - is you article on the eight/eleven mile stretch of the Dove - roughly Hartington to Ashbourne (or Ilam) or just the limestone dale downstream of Mill Dale. AS we both know, both/all these terms are used. Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 18:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The approach on Wiki is to go for the standard or main definition, but to also mention alternative definitions. When I worked on Amsterdam there was also some difficulty with defining exactly what is understood by the term "Amsterdam" so we had this section: Amsterdam#Definitions. However, we did move that section quite low down in the article as for most readers this discussion would be of little interest. At this stage in Dovedale I don't think it really matters where such a discussion appeared, and it could well appear at the end of the intro - or perhaps in the National Trust section as part of a discussion of the extent of the National trust property and the National Nature Reserve area. SilkTork *YES! 20:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see someone has introduced the term Dove Valley for the Hartington-Ilam bit - well, 'not known at this address'. I've tagged! It would possibly be used for the bit above or below the narrow bit, which, whatever else it's called , is certainly a Dale. Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 10:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question again

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I think you/we missed LinuxLad's question. Agreed its tricky, but it still needs an answer. To quote the River Dove article (nice article, by the way) "The river meanders past Longnor and Hartington and cuts through a set of stunning limestone gorges, Beresford Dale, Wolfscote Dale, Milldale and Dovedale."

Now either these four are called Dovedale or one bit of it is called Dovedale or both are.

  1. All four are called Dovedale .... then the River Dove article = Dovedale
  2. Dovedale is a shorter bit of the River Dove. .... then Milldale should not direct here.
  3. They are both called Dovedale .... then we definately need this bit about Definitions which you suggest.... and in time we will need two articles. Sorry if Ive missed it the answer to LinuxLads question elsewhere.

As you see I have added a picture to this article. (This isnt about who owns the article... although I can see that moving a lot of the River Dove article to here removes a lot of history of people who contributed.) We do need to sort this out particularly as your article may be on the front page in a few days and the subject is very important to Derbyshire. (Should be TOP importance I think). So can we resolve this quickly? Victuallers (talk) 14:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well my sister's answer (she lives in Brailsford) is that to her Dovedale means near the stepping stones (under Thorpe Cloud), and upstream some indeterminate distance towards Milldale - except when it was clear from the context ('have you ever walked down the Manifold then back up Dovedale') when the 8 mile stretch Ilam to Hartington would be meant - more or less as it said in the the River Dove article. I don't think anybody uses the term Dovedale for the broad valley upstream of Hartington, or downstream of Ashbourne, and only occasionally for the bit from Ashbourne to Ilam. Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion has been spread in three places - here, Linuxlad's talkpage and my talkpage. I made a brief comment of what I understood from what I had read of where Dovedale is on my talkpage: User_talk:SilkTork#Dovedale, which appears to match with Linuxlad's sister's own knowledge, so I think we are in accord on that now. Though, yes, the Dovedale#River_Dove section could be clearer on that point.
For the history of contributions, I linked to the River Dove article in the Edit summary as per Help:Merging and moving pages and linked Dovedale in the same way on the River Dove edit summary.
And yes, I agree, an area which attracts at least one million visitors a year making it one of the most popular natural areas of Britain is certainly of TOP importance! SilkTork *YES! 22:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just realised I hadn't read Linuxlad's comment very clearly. So we do need some discussion on alternative understandings of the Dovedale area. But we need sources for that. Do either of you know a website, book or magazine which talks about Dovedale as being the 8 mile stretch Ilam to Hartington? SilkTork *YES! 22:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hartington Hall YHA is described as being at the North end of Dovedale I think. Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 08:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I have walked dovedale, but not the River dove. Links like this and this convince me that option 2 above is right. We need to make this about only Dovedale and move any substative stuff on milldale etc elsewhere. Certainly milldale (although there is milldale (village) and milldale (dale)) should not redirect to dovedale... however where dovedale precisely ends is still up for grabs. Oh and this article continues to improve... well done Victuallers (talk) 14:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
During my researches I have found some useful pics ... you will find them by clicking on the commons template. There are also a number on the Dove article. Victuallers (talk) 20:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Staffordshire

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The title article on Dovedale appears to presume that Dovedale is just in Derbyshire, this is misleading when it is shared with Staffordshire. Work that takes place is done by both Derbyshire and Staffordshire County Councils, in cooperation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yadar21 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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