Talk:Dimitrios Panourgias

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Biography: Military

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About the name of Panourgias

The name of the article is false. Dimitrios Xiros was the father of Panourgias Xiros. Although the priest who baptised his son, gave the boy the name Panoraea, he didn't want to change the name and he just called the boy Panourgia. Later, Panourgias was signing as "Panourgias D. Panourgias", and this became the new name of him and his family by then. It was Panourgias, and not Dimitrios Xiros (or Dimitrios Panourgias that is totally false) the leader of the revolution in Salona. So, I believe the name must change to Panourgias Panourgias or just Panourgias (as in greek version).VJSC263IO (talk) 04:20, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reverts

I have noticed that Khirurg and Picco have been removing Heraclides in several articles. Panourgias is called arvanite by Heraclides and this can not be removed from the article to be replaced with a non-academic book which seems to be self-published and has no value. this will go to ANI if heraclides keeps getting removed just because some users do not agree with him. Not liking the conclusions of a source is no reason to remove it. Durraz0 (talk) 20:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hercalides is not a historian and contains factual errors about other similar figures. The "other book" is not self-published, either. "Xiros", the original family name, is not an Arvanite name. Feel free to go to ANI, I will make sure to mention the aspersions and bad faith assumptions you are making Not liking the conclusions of a source. Comment on content, not contributors. Khirurg (talk) 20:47, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The book by Neni Panourgia is published by Indiana University Press [1], no idea where you got the impression that it's self-published. It contains no mention of any kind of Arvanite background. Khirurg (talk) 21:03, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another source: The Greek military leader Panourgias[2].

I already answered in my edit summary. Piccco (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The book doesn't even support what Khirurg wrote[3], so this is source falsification and will be brought to ANI if it continues. The author reports some stories (including the one about an origin from Istanbul) and then concludes: The family tradition which as we saw presents the origin of the Xiroi from ironclad knights who left Constantinople, is likely based on stories of real events related to the nation, which in time were merged with the memories of the first members of the family. The stories of family tradition, most likely stem from the events of constant wars in central Greece regarding raids by Normans, Franks, Catalans during the 12th and 13th century. Later, in the middle of the 15th century, many areas of Greece are taken over by Venetians, Franks and other knights who fought against Turks. .... Greeks in all these years fought as allies of the Venetians. It's natural that these battles have been preserved as legends in the memory of Greeks.

Alltan (talk) 12:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No source falsification whatsoever, I faithfully sourced what is on p. 64. What you have posted does not in any way contradict what I wrote. Are you saying the source contradicts itself? Anyways I don't see any hint of Arvanitic origins, so that's ruled out. Khirurg (talk) 18:35, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's okay, I reworked on the paragraph a bit based primarily on the information acquired from the first source ("Panourgiades" - the one which Alltan cited), which seems to sum up everything better, so that there wouldn't be confusion. Piccco (talk) 22:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]