Talk:Diego Paulsen

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"Excellency"

The President of the Chamber of Deputies holds the style of "Excellency" as per the Chamber's rules,^[1] though that title is not used even at the most formal of events (the Cuenta Pública, which is the equivalent of the State of the Union),^[2] which is why said style should not be mentioned in this article.

The style of "The Honourable" is granted to all members of the said Chamber,^[3] though that title is also sort of a courtesy which is only used in formal documents (when refering to the member in question) and never outside of the Chamber. Even inside, the correct way to address a member is with 'Señor' (Mr), followed by their given names and surname (or just the surname). I do not think it is necessary that I reference what I've just said as it can be seen on every single sitting of the Chamber. MaximusWikipedian (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MaximusWikipedian: It is completely irrelevant whether the title is used in some instances or not. The rules regarding this matter are clear, and as you have stated in reference n°1, the President of the Chamber of Deputies holds the style of "His Excellency" as per the Chamber's rules, and those rules are legally binding in accordance to article 56 of the Constitution of Chile ^[4]. The fact that a legal norm is not used in certain instances, does not imply its inexistence, and therefore it certainly does not justify its removal. AtomsRavelAz talk 18:55, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Article 56 dictates each Chamber (Deputies and Senate) shall decide upon its own rules of preceedings in regards to debate, and does not grant them the power to establish forms of address (as a matter of fact, that article is specifically in regards to debate only). Chile follows the same practice as the United States, in the sense that members of any chamber of Congress receive the style of 'The Honourable', but as it is only used in the most formal documents, the style is not added in Wikipedia (see for example Nancy Pelosi).

The Excellency style should be added on the President of the Chamber of Deputies of Chile article, but not on Diego Paulsen's, as the style, notwithstanding the fact it is not used, is connected to the office and not the holder. MaximusWikipedian (talk) 19:01, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MaximusWikipedian: What article 56 of the Constitution does is grant validity to the entirety of the content of the Rules of the Chamber of Deputies. If said rules were not legally binding or were partially in violation of the Constitution, then they would not be mentioned on the constitution itself. This is guaranteed by articles 6 and 7 of the Chilean constitution. Once again, the fact that a legal norm is not used in certain instances, does not imply its inexistence, and therefore it certainly does not justify its removal.

The styles might not be used on Nancy Pelosi's article, but it is used indubitably in countless other articles of politicians from other countries. Just to name a few: Jacinda Ardern, Justin Trudeau and Boris Johnson. AtomsRavelAz talk 19:11, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jacinda Ardern, Justin Trudeau and Boris Johnson are members of the Parliaments of Commonwealth Nations, which all use the British honours system in regards to not only medals but also forms of address. The 3 persons you named are citizens of Monarchy of the United Kingdom, and thus follow strict rules on titles and styles, so I believe your example does not serve Chile well.

Chile does not follow strict rules on the matter, and the only style that is universally accepted is Excellency for the President of the Republic, currently Mr. Sebastian Piñera. Otherwise, titles and styles are only courtesy and are barely used, if used at all (as I said, Deputies use the style Señor rather than than the 'oficial' style of Honourable). MaximusWikipedian (talk) 19:14, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MaximusWikipedian: The only reason why I mentioned politicians from other countries is because you did that, and to quote you: I believe your example does not serve Chile well.

Once again, show me formal legally binding sources that prove that the only style that is universally accepted is Excellency for the President of the Republic. So far you have no refuted my initial argument. So for the third time, and now proven by the mentioned articles of the Chilean constitution, the fact that a legal norm is not used in certain instances, does not imply its inexistence, and therefore it certainly does not justify its removal. AtomsRavelAz talk 19:19, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will stop arguing as I have already explained my points. The most formal of events, the Cuenta Pública, only uses "Señor" to refer to the President of the Chamber of Deputies, and reserves Excellency only for the President of the Republic - I think that is enough evidence. MaximusWikipedian (talk) 19:36, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MaximusWikipedian: And I explained my points and you completely ignored them, even when I provided actual legally binding sources backing it up. So what was was the whole point of this discussion if you are just going to ignore its result?. I stated from the get-go that I was willing to be convinced as long as you provided me with a source that backs up your claims, which thus far you have not been able to do. AtomsRavelAz talk 19:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@AtomsRavelAz: I have done some reading – specifically a document concerning "Vocatives in Chile for National and Foreign Authorities"^[5] – and it seems that "Excellency" is only used when referring to a person through the office of President of the Chamber of Deputies or when writing to the President. Whilst the Rules of Chamber of Deputies do confer the style of "Excellency" on the office of President of the Chamber of Deputies, it's more likely than not that is referring to the office itself (even the most formal styles do not confer "Excellency" on the person"). As this is Paulsen's personal article, I am of the opinion that "Excellency" does not belong here, but, as MaximusWikipedian previously mentioned, it should be on the office's wiki. OhDidgeridoo (talk) 19:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@OhDidgeridoo and MaximusWikipedian: I see. Good find. I'm of the opinion that the style should be added, but only on the article of the person currently holding the position and once he steps down it should be removed. My reasoning is that since page 7 mentions that the title of upmost importance should always be used first, in this case "His excellency" should be used instead of "The Honorable". If that is not the case, then there is also a reasonable argument to remove the style of "The Honorable" from some articles of Chilean politicians. What do you guys think? let's reach a consensus. AtomsRavelAz talk 20:58, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've already removed (prior to the start of this discussion) the title of The Honourable from all current Deputies and Senators, as the style is not used on Spanish Wikipedia either, so I stand by the opinion that the titles are of courtesy and should not be on people's articles but rather the articles on their offices. MaximusWikipedian (talk) 21:10, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Reglamento Cámara de Diputados de Chile [Rules of the Chamber of Deputies of Chile] (article 53, page 27)" (PDF). www.camara.cl. 1 August 2019. Retrieved 27 September 2021.
^ "Session of the whole Congress (Cuenta Pública)". www.senado.cl. 22 July 2021. Retrieved 27 September 2021.
^ "Reglamento Cámara de Diputados de Chile [Rules of the Chamber of Deputies of Chile] (article 83, page 39)" (PDF). www.camara.cl. 1 August 2019. Retrieved 27 September 2021.
^ https://www.oas.org/dil/esp/constitucion_chile.pdf
^ Vocativos en Chile para Autoridades Nacionales y Extranjeras (PDF).

[1] "Reglamento Cámara de Diputados de Chile [Rules of the Chamber of Deputies of Chile] (article 53, page 27)" (PDF). www.camara.cl. 1 August 2019. Retrieved 27 September 2021.

[2] "Session of the whole Congress (Cuenta Pública)". www.senado.cl. 22 July 2021. Retrieved 27 September 2021.

[3] "Reglamento Cámara de Diputados de Chile [Rules of the Chamber of Deputies of Chile] (article 83, page 39)" (PDF). www.camara.cl. 1 August 2019. Retrieved 27 September 2021.

[4] ttps://www.oas.org/dil/esp/constitucion_chile.pdf

[5] Vocativos en Chile para Autoridades Nacionales y Extranjeras (PDF).

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