Talk:Dhar (surname)

Let us upgrade

For the year 2006-07, let us concentrate on upgrading the contents as decided: Wales to upgrade quality of Wiki. Thanks. --Bhadani 03:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I meant please expand the contents. --Bhadani 14:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Origins of Dars

Kashmiri muslims have no relation whatsoever with the hindu brahmins, most of the kashmiri muslims with surname Dar are essentially illiterate peasant cultivators as Dar is more of a honorific title in the kashmiri villages similar in this sense to the title Chaudhary in villages of india.

Any proof of your written text??? Dar's are originally converted Brahmins of kashmir. It doesn't matter what profession they later adopted. DarSahab (talk) 15:30, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Dar

I have heard that the 'Dar' tribe has two origins. One being from the Persian area (predominantly with a double 'r' spelling "Darr"), the other being from a Jewish tribe in Medina, Saudi Arabia.

Dhar or Dar?

As a Kashmiri, i have never heard of "Dhar" nor does it represent the caste of Kashmiri people. As far as "Dhar" is concerned, it is not "Dhar" but "Dar"..

Example: Aleem Dar, Muhammad Ahsan Dar, Ishaq Dar, Galleh Dar, Hasanak Dar, Karreh Dar, Manzoor Dar and much more.. There are millions of people with "Dar" caste but if you talk about "Dhar", it doesn't exist anywhere on this planet.. (Farooqahmadbhat (talk) 17:47, 13 November 2018 (UTC))

@Farooqahmadbhat: That is an odd contention to make given the volume of evidence in the article that "Dhar" is a Kashmiri surname. There are also several examples in the article of Kashmiris with the surname "Dhar". Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@Farooqahmadbhat: Some sources suggest that "Dar" is a variation of "Dhar" used by Muslim Kashmiris descended from Kashmiri Pandits. Perhaps the reason you do not encounter the surname "Dhar" often is that the population of Kashmiri Pandits in Kashmir is far lower than it was about 30 years ago, so you would only have encountered the name in its Muslim spelling. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 13:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Recently discovered this and thought I would share it: "Dhar was the honorific given to a village head, strongman, or a warlord of a smaller jagir/estate; called Dara pronounced as Dhara... with the advent of Islam many such Dara's had converted and to differentiate themselves from Brahmin Dara's, converts modified it to Dar while Brahmins persisted with Dhar". [1] Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 10:48, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Muhammad din Fauq's View of Dar

Mr Fauq stated in his book Tareekh e Aqwam that Dar is a Kshatriya surname and a variation of Dangar. This claim as far as I have read is only true for Kashmiris of Hanji origin. Hanjis are described as clever and cunning by Mr Walter in his book. Hanjis were a minority in Kashmir and today they are very much dissolved in the society and some do use the surname Dar, but Dar masses still are descendants of Pandits. This should not be ignored because Many Dalits also use the surname Sheikh ( as a surname) in Kashmir. I am going all in with Kalhana's claims. Because Mr Kalhana has provided historical detail of their (Dar/Dhar) feats whereas Mr Fauq has not. Conclusion : The older the source the better. DahafSipah (talk) 12:52, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Also the Argument presented by Mr.Fauq is plain British Warrior Race Classification of the Indian subcontinent. i.e Anyone who picks up a weapon and fights bravely has kshatriya blood in him (Not my words, referenced in his book). This argument is too much invalid given the fact that historically Brahmans who were a majority in Kashmir have always fought in the armies. So before someone in near futures want to revert or present some other information to the article. I want to let them know, the source provided is clear on the claim that Dar or Dhar are not Rajputs or Kshatriya by birth but are Pandits. DahafSipah (talk) 15:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

"Kashmiri Pandit surname"

Hi @DahafSipah, one of your edits indicates that "Dhar" is a Kashmiri Pandit surname, but the line that follows immediately after indicates that it is a Kashmiri Muslim surname too. Isn't this an inconsistency? Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 08:31, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Kashmiri Muslim surname of Pandit "Lineage". Therefore I don't see it as an inconsistency. DahafSipah (talk) 12:50, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@DahafSipah But that doesn't make it a Kashmiri Pandit surname. All it means is that it once was a Kashmiri Pandit surname, but now is a surname for both Kashmiri Pandits and Muslims. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 02:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@Kohlrabi Pickle Indeed it is, but it's origins are not in Islam. So I think it should work. But If you think we can replace it with a better term then please let's discuss. DahafSipah (talk) 02:51, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@DahafSipah This was the version before your edits: [2]. I think it works better. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 05:13, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

← I don't think so changing to Hindu will make any sense. As there are so many divisions among Hindus. It's better to select the specific branch rather than going for the root. We also have book references for the pandit point. However I won't mind if we can just call it a kashmiri surname here used by both Pandits and Muslims. But To some folks it may look that somebody is trying to erase the pandit Lineage point which is clearly not in a good taste. It's in the books however so those folks can wait. DahafSipah (talk) 16:54, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I am in agreement with User:Kohlrabi Pickle on this issue and have also corrected the misrepresentation of sources in this article by providing the original quote parameter to the statements. Additionally, the clauses "Sanskritized Kashmiri" and "Persianized Kashmiri" are not found in the reference at all, which actually states that Dhar was the original Sanskrit spelling and Dar was the spoken Kashmiri spelling. User:DahafSipah, per WP:BRD, you will need to gain consensus if you wish to reinstate your contentious and unsourced changes, some which violates WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. User:Arjayay had already reverted your modifications to the article already. Please discuss your thoughts here as further attempts to insert the problematic content will be reverted. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 02:33, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Anupam's version seems to have fixed much of the OR that infiltrated the article. As this observer at Quora noted, aspirated sounds aren't found in Kashmiri like they are in Sanskrit.[3] That's the reason - not Persianization, which isn't even in the citation that DahafSipah was citing. LearnIndology (talk) 04:15, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Anupam and @LearnIndology, for clarity, the terms "Sanskritised" and "Persianised" were added by me, not @DahafSipah. Apologies for not including the reference earlier. It's a distinction coined by the linguist Braj Kachru to differentiate between the dialects of Kashmiri spoken by Pandits and Muslims. It comes from his 1969 text A reference grammar of Kashmiri. I am happy to put the reference in, depending on how you feel about reinstating those terms. It's not a particularly technical term of art, just one of the many different ways academics have distinguished between the dialects. To my ear, it sounds classier than others like "Pandit Kashmiri/Muslim Kashmiri". It would be my preference to reinstate it.

LearnIndology, the explanation on the Quora page is generally accurate but not complete in this instance. The Kashmiri language does lack certain aspirated sonants found in Sanskrit (specifically घ, झ, ढ, ध and भ), but the Pandit "Dhar" (धर) converts to दर in Kashmiri, which is still different from the Muslim डार. (If you don't read Devanagari, you can put this into Google Translate, and use the "listen" function to hear the difference.) Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:52, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Kohlrabi Pickle, although those claims were never added by me. I am happy you did confirmed that. DahafSipah (talk) 07:48, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Kohlrabi Pickle, डार is the Persian / Urdu inspired pronunciation. दर is the Kashmiri one it's still pretty much used in the northern Kashmiri areas where Urdu is not quite spoken. DahafSipah (talk) 07:52, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

User:Kohlrabi Pickle, thank you for your clarification. If you have a reference that mentions that distinction, I would have no issue if you added it in this section, where the name variation is explained. I don't think it's necessary to use the terms in the lede since this is just one theory and the current source explains the difference as being one between Sanskrit and Kashmiri, rather than Sanskritized Kashmiri and Persianized Kashmiri (note that Sankrit influenced Kashmiri at a much different time than did Persian). Additionally, if you could include the quote parameter with your addition, since this article is a frequent target, that would be great. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 14:14, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you @Anupam. I'm tied up at the moment with commitments outside Wikipedia, but I'll put it in when I get the time. Things can stay status quo until then. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 06:24, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Dhar title in Saryuparin Brahmin

Share your view if you know something about it Pandit Ashutosh Dhar Dwivedi (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Adding Muhamamd din Fauq's View

I am working on adding Muhammad din Fauq's view to the article. I have cited Lone and Dars pages to the citation from the book. I will be translating and adding it to the argument. I am also planning to add another history book but since it's in Hindi (Sanskrit Script) I'll have to struggle with it. DahafSipah (talk) 15:03, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

July

@Ekdalian Check the previous revisions (or just this edit which removed the attributions from the lead of the page and you'll find it is an unattributed opinion. I removed it as it looked WP:UNDUE and WP: UNBALANCED and there is no need to add this qualifier for Muslim Kashmiris to the lead. The origins are discussed already in depth further down the article with proper attributions there is no sourced content removal Kiuu (talk) 14:32, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 30 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. And Dhar (Bengali surname) should be merged into Dhar (surname) per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 16:04, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

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Dhar (surname) → Dhar (Kashmiri surname) – Dhar is a surname found both in certain Kashmiri communities and Bengali Kayasthas. I recently created an article on Dhar (Bengali surname) and thus I suggest this article be moved to Dhar (Kashmiri surname) while this page (Dhar (surname)) be converted into a disambiguation page linking to both. PadFoot2008 (talk) 13:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 13:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject India has been notified of this discussion. Bensci54 (talk) 13:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The surname "Dhar" is not exclusively limited to Bengali Kayasthas, but it can also be found in some other castes as well. In my opinion, the "Dhar surname" article should be the main article, and therefore any information regarding the Dhar surname should be incorporated there (different sections should be added). I would like to hear what Ekdalian thinks about this. Thanks, Satnam₂₄₀₈^(talk) 20:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, I think there can exist two separate articles and this page can be a disambiguation. Dhar is majorly found in Bengali Kayastha and some groups of Kashmiris. If a significant number of other peoples also have this surname it can be written in the second paragraph. PadFoot2008 (talk) 03:05, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Why do you want to create two different articles for Dhar (Kashmiri surname) and Dhar (Bengali surname)? Both this article and the Dhar (Bengali surname) article are not substantial enough to warrant a split. Further, you can go through the article on the Gupta surname. Thanks, Satnam₂₄₀₈^(talk) 04:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

The article may have some issues. — Satnam₂₄₀₈^(talk) 06:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Satnam2408; majority of such articles on surnames have similar diverse usage, found among multiple communities in India! We do not segregate on the basis of region. I understand that this proposal by PadFoot2008 is completely a good faith one, but I disagree since this is not the convention as explained above! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 08:38, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Ekdalian. Dhar hasn't very diverse usage. Dhar is mostly found only in certain Kashmiri groups and Bengali Kayasthas, and as they are of completely separate origins I think they should have different articles. This is not based on region but origins. In addition this article only covers the Kashmiri surname and not the Bengali surname. This is similar to how the Java Island and Java programming language have separate articles and it wouldn't make sense to pile the definitions of both into the opening line of a single article. PadFoot2008 (talk) 14:34, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi PadFoot2008, the example is a pathetic one! In your example, one is an island whereas the other is a programming language! In our case, both are surnames of Indian origin. If we go by your logic, how many articles would be applicable for Sinha/Singh! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 16:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that my example was but far fetched but there aren't 10 different origins for Dhar surname. Only two completely different origins. And both teh origins have about the same popularity. It isn't as if one ia extremely popular while other is very rare. Singh is used by Kshatriyas and Sikhs but the origin is same: 'lion'. Sinha's use by other groups are very rare. This article is completely about the Kashmiri surname. All the sections in the article are about the Kashmiri surname, not the Kayastha one. That is why I want this article to renamed. This article is only about the Kashmiri one not the Kayastha one. Even the page categories. PadFoot2008 (talk) 07:06, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

If we follow your reasoning, it would mean that we would need to generate numerous articles for various surnames such as Das, Dutta, Gupta, and so on. It is always advisable to merge similar articles, especially if neither of them is substantial enough. Furthermore, it would be better for our readers, who are looking for information on the Dhar (surname), to find all the relevant information in a single place, just like other similar surname articles. We had not come across this article before and were unaware of the Bengali Dhar (surname) article. Furthermore, article information and categories can always be changeable. Thanks, — Satnam₂₄₀₈^(talk) 04:44, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

All right. I agree with you on that. Readers will not be confused then. Then I shall redirect the new article about the Bengali surname to this article and change the lead. Also Forebears.io [4] shows that the surname Dhar has highest prevalence in West Bengal not Jammu and Kashmir, which means that this article's lead should be changed to tell that first. PadFoot2008 (talk) 15:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, PadFoot2008 and Satnam2408! Ekdalian (talk) 16:45, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.