Talk:Detention of Juan Requesens

Deputy arrested

I will note that I think this is the first time a main deputy of the National Assembly is arrested. I don't recall if Richard Blanco was a deputy when he was detained and back in 2015 three deputies were also arrested, but before they even assumed office. --Jamez42 (talk) 05:55, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Sign on chair

From August 9, AN members have put a sign on Requesens’ chair there saying “Kidnapped by SEBIN” [1] [2], where would this information best go? Just in the main text? Kingsif (talk) 15:20, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

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• Juan Requesens holding his hand out as camera is turned during arrest on August 7th 2018.png (discussion)
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Pacifist - worth inclusion?

In this interview, Requesens' wife calls him a pacifist, and it's a character trait observed in other sources. Is it worth including? Kingsif (talk) 03:32, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

@Kingsif: I think to include the information in its main article and that it's more noteworthy to mention how he was assaulted and injured during the 2017 protests, like many other deputies; if I'm not mistaken the Spanish Wikipedia already has some info about it. However, if more information could be added to his role in the protests, both as student leader and as deputy, or other statements, it can show implicitly how he was a pacifist. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:59, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Good idea Kingsif (talk) 12:08, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Title: "Arrest" or "Detention"

Question; which should it be? Detention has precedent with other political prisoners of Venezuela, and there's interest in more than just the arrest; though there's a lot about the arrest, too, so "Detention" as a catch-all would probably be good.Kingsif (talk) 21:00, 21 December 2018 (UTC) @Jamez42: - also, why is the page title in italics and how do we get rid of it? Kingsif (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

@Kingsif: Also, why is the page title in italics and how do we get rid of it? - That's...a good question, actually. We could try by moving the page. I strongly support the move of the title to "Detention of Juan Requesens"; just this week Requesens' preliminary hearing was deferred, and as the date of this message he has more than four months in prison. There have been several abuses during his detention, many of which have been denounced in regional bodies such as the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. Not wanting to be a crystal ball, but it is also likely that Requesens spends more time detained. The deferral of preliminary audiences is a known dilatory tactic used by the government to prevent detainees from having a trial. For instance, Lorent Saleh had his preliminary audience deferred 52 times before being released after four years in prison. The average detention time of a political prisoner in Venezuela is around a year. --Jamez42 (talk) 03:25, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Yay, italics title problem solved. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:53, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

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Moving to talk for better sourcing

Tex that needs better sourcing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:22, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• The hashtag also began to be used for things not directly related to Requesens, including announcing the national general strike that began on 21 August.
• Article 49 of the Constitution says that 'no person can be forced to confess guilt or testify against himself". It describes the video of Requesens as being in violation of this, as well as in violation of the Venezuelan legal system for being obtained outside of court and without a lawyer present.
• During a mass service in San Cristóbal (the capital of his home state Táchira) that was held for prayers of release for political prisoners, a group brought some of Requesens' T-shirts as an offering for his freedom.
• BLP issue, I cannot put that name to those words from a high quality source. [3] Addressed best I could find from RS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Caracas Chronicles reported that even when Requesens was briefly brought to court, he was denied the opportunity to see his lawyer outside of the hearing. Addressed from a RS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Maduro later said that "as soon as he was arrested [...] ex-deputy Requesens voluntary gave information". This is in contradiction to the first video itself, in which the date is established as 9 August, two days after Requesens' arrest.

References

I don't think quoting Wikisource is the best option, but I wanted to leave the link of a copy of the constitution here just in case. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:55, 6 March 2019 (UTC) (edit conflict)

So far, I don't think anything I have mentioned above is significant or necessary-- the issues are covered by other sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Does anyone have an opinion on the reliability of http://cronica.uno ? I can find nothing on their website to indicate reliability. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

Done and to do

From this version 286 edits later (I am such an inefficient editor) to this version, I've done about all I can for now.

What is done

1. The worst problem that needed addressing was WP:CITEKILL. Multiple paragraphs had citation bombs at the end of general statements, and it wasn't possible for the reader to sort our which citation verified which text. This is an awful thing to do on Wikipedia, because sorting it out is so time-consuming, and citation bombing does not serve our readers (even less with some of them may not read Spanish). (I just wanted to summarize text from here to Juan Requesens, and was not able to do so. The sourcing here was so muddy that there was no way through it but through it, and I had to dig in.)
2. The second biggest problem was a rambling TOC with incoherent text placement within short, stubby sections – typical of Wikipedia because of the way text grows haphazardly via the input of multiple editors. A rambling TOC is always an indication of underlying prose problems, which is why criterion 2 is part of the Featured Article requirements. Background-->Events-->Controversy is a strange way to structure articles (particularly when the entire topic is a controversy). "Background" is not a particularly encyclopedic section heading, and "Events" forces an awkward, WP:PROSELINE structure upon the article, rather than having like content grouped together. I hope I have worked all of the content into a more readable narrative by restructuring the entire TOC.
3. Most of the citations did not include a date, many of them did not include the author, and there were (still are) unreliable sources. And, many of the citations had dead links. When date and author are not given in a citation, finding the original (or a copy of) the source is made more difficult. Almost every El Pitazo and Time magazine link was dead, so it might be good to avoid those.
4. There was – and probably still is – copyvio. It is NOT OK to directly translate Spanish text to English without putting the translation in quotes. That is copyvio, just as directly cutting and pasting English text is. I found enough of it that the entire article should be checked.
5. This is an article that is about an alleged crime, with serious implications, and a BLP, and yet, it used marginal sources. It is exactly the kind of topic that should use the highest quality sources available, which Caracas Chronicles is not. There are still some non-reliable sources in the article that should be replaced.
6. Images: holy Mother of All text sandwiching. Placing too many images, so that they overwhelm the text and cause text to be sandwiched between images and quote boxes, is one sure way to encourage Wikipedia's readers to move on quickly.

What remains to be done

1. Replace non-reliable sources, which are flagged.
2. Watch for Spanish to English translation copyvio.
3. ALSO: why does this article exist? At 4,500 words, it is not overwhelming, and over at Juan Requesens, there is no reason these 4,500 words won't fit. Why was the content created here instead of at Juan Requesens? If/when he is ever released and can continue his political career, and if/when his main article grows too large, then I could understand having this spinoff. This article should be merged back into his article, and redirected for now.

Tomorrow, Requesens allegedly has another hearing, and theoretically readers will hit on Juan Requesens, seeking information about his detention. And there, they will find nothing. I don't see why.

I hope that everyone familiar with the case can read through this today (I surely left tons of typos, 'cuz I do that); after tomorrow, I hope we will start a merge discussion to get this text back over to Requesens article (which I will next attempt to improve). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:31, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Wow this is surely an article I that I did not want to know it existed. El Pitazo has this bad habit of moving their links from one URL to another when the news is archived, to fix them just add "archivo." at the beginning of the URL. --MaoGo (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

It seems like it does not work. --MaoGo (talk) 18:51, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

It's a good idea, though! I added the lead from here to Requesens, but before any Detention content, his main article has less than 350 words; it can easily accommodate all of this content, plus an expansion of his time as deputy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

What about copying Requesens content here and then moving the whole page to Juan Requesens?--MaoGo (talk) 18:59, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Since he may get a hearing tomorrow, it is preferable that we leave well enough along for now, but your proposal for a move over redirect is probably a good way to go if we decide on that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

By the way, isn't calling it a "drone attack" accepting a POV that it was an attack? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

• Amazing, thank you! And re this direct point, these are really topics that do need a retrospective view we obviously do not have at the moment. Will look at more on the pages soon :) Kingsif (talk) 19:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, it's now that I've been able to read this calmly. Thank you very much for your huge effort; for the time being I'd comment that knowing the Venezuelan justice system, it's likely that the hearing will be postponed again, but it's a good call to have the article ready by that time. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:00, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

MERGE proposal

OK, Apagón means likely no hearing today, and few views on this article. I don't want to tag the article with one of those unsightly merge proposals. If no one disagrees, I will proceed. If someone disagrees, I will start a formal merge proposal. This content belongs at Juan Requesens. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:21, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Here's what it looks like; still a small article, at 4,800 words. His article is missing information about his election as deputy. Please weigh in; can revert at Requesens article if y'all hate it, otherwise, only need to redirect this article there, work is done. @MaoGo, Jamez42, ZiaLater, Kingsif, and Oscar: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:12, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Nicely done. --MaoGo (talk) 15:52, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Very weak oppose: I'm an inclusionist and I'm glad this article was created, but at the same time I'm afraid it might be too long for a user to read comfortably. I really like how the merge looks, so if nobody else opposes I don't think opening a formal proposal is needed. I'm expecting to know others' opinions --Jamez42 (talk) 17:09, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Retract, I have completely changed my mind on this after working further through the changes that would need to be made. I have found one good reason for this article to exist, as a stand alone: {{Bolivarian Venezuela Crisis}}. It would not make sense to have Juan Requesens the bio/person listed as part of the Crisis template, but it does make sense to have his detention listed there. If/when the Crisis ever ends, his detention stands as part of the crisis, separate from the person/bio. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:47, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't have a massive preference either way, as long as Juan Requesens is expanded suitably to include more other stuff should this be merged at some point. Kingsif (talk) 20:28, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Question @SandyGeorgia: We could include the redirect in the template, just like it currently is with Alí Domínguez. Unless, of course, we want to see the detention as an individual event during the crisis. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:42, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Will wait to see what others think, I guess ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:49, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

This was one of the peaks (in terms of repression) of last year, and given the overall quality of this article (thanks in part to SandyGeorgia) I tend to oppose the merge. --Oscar_. (talk) 21:06, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Detention of Juan Requesens/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MX (talk · contribs) 17:49, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Review

Will review. Stay tuned! MX (✉ • ✎) 17:49, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Lead paragraph and more

• I like the lead paragraph because it summarizes the major points of the entire article. But why are there sources clogging it? Per WP:LEADCITE, sources don't need to be in the lead if the info is already cited elsewhere. I think it will read much cleaner that way, so please consider cleaning it up.

• per LEADCITE, with this article there's a balance of 'info is cited in the article' and 'but it's contentious enough that a source in the lead is beneficial'. I can only really see the Helicoide part not being so controversial, but it was kept secret so long that the source can also be seen as having more value than in other cases. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• In addition to above, how do you feel about adding an infobox? Perhaps an "event" infobox would be useful. Up to you.

• It had a legal case infobox at one point, but there's little information that fits the parameters of any infobox, given the irregularity of it. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Drone attack

• Requesens had been a student leader of the 2014 Venezuelan protests – has been → was; then change "of the" → "in the", if you think it's appropriate.

•  Done - and changed to 'during'

• I'm a bit worried of this section being a WP:QUOTEFARM, especially the last paragraph. I like Requesens' quote since that is the subject matter here, but the observers could probably be paraphrased. Now, instead of giving undue weight to certain observers (i.e. "BBC said this", or "Observer X said this"), you can just paraphrase what observers say in general about the drone attack and leave readers with the option to consult the sources if they want to.

• Will work on this; SandyGeorgia rephrased it this way for accountability. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Arrest

• his parliamentary immunity as a legislator was not respected – link parliamentary immunity

• The government charged that the arrest was – charged → said; I would also say "was made in flagrante..."

•  Done

Prison videos

• Very good section overall. Gave me chills reading it.
• Rayder Alexander Russo Marquez – Should be Márquez per Spanish language rules.

•  Done Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Video controversy

• Saab denies this, saying that the video is a recording – Who is Saab? He's not introduced before.

• Yes, a restructure probably moved this - swapped. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• Members of the Justice First party, of which Requesens is a leader – is → was

• Politics in Venezuela kind of works where being arrested doesn't stop you from being important in a party, with figures like Leopoldo López being a notable example. Though it is probably contentious to say if he is or was a leader either way - changed to just say it's his party. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Hearings

• Great (and crazy) section...

• Thanks! Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Prison conditions and health

• but also the doctored effect compared to the videos released prior. – doctored effect of the videos? A bit unclear, so consider rephrasing.

• Rephrased to "because of the curated image of his incarceration being presented when compared to the videos released prior". Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Legal rights

• would be great international consequences of Requesens' "disappearance" – great → major

•  Done Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• Requesens' lawyers went to Helicoide and asked to see him but were refused, as were his family. – "Requensens' lawyers and family went to El Helicoide and asked to see him, but were denied permission."

•  DoneKingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• Question: is it El Helicoide or just Helicoide? What's used more often?

• Officially El Helicoide, in more casual sources it's written as Helicoide because that's obviously how it's said out loud. I can definitely standardize it. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Responses

National Assembly

• and was sent to the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. – already linked before, so remove link per WP:OVERLINK. Consider its official abbreviation instead.

•  Done Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Maduro adminisration

• Diosdado Cabello denied that Requesens was abused at El Helicoide. – WP:OVERLINK per previous mentions

• member Hermann Escarrá addressed that body on 13 August – "That body" sounds a bit awkward. I would rephrase to "addressed the assembly"

• were no human rights violations with Requesens' detention – ... conducted in Requesens' detention

• she tweeted that people shouldn't speculate or doubt, – shouldn't → Should not

• especially by the woman in charge of his conditions in prison – ... especially since she was in charge of his ...

• Images of Requesens during his incarceration were used by the Venezuelan government in an October 2018 presentation to the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights to demonstrate that political prisoners were treated well; this action was met with scorn and controversy. – Wasn't this already mentioned previously? Consider merging it all in one place instead of having two separate mentions of the same event.

•  Done all Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Other Venezuelan reactions

• Juntos por la Libertad ("Youths for Freedom"), Sin Mordaza, and Las Piloneras. – Would it make sense to add the translation for the other two?

• The others don't have an official translation. I've added in the form of "(English: ...)" to reflect this. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• several hundred miles from Caracas on the eastern edge of the country – I think this sentence should be rephrased, since we usually avoid miles / kilometers in the prose unless we have an exact distance that can be used to convert both.

• removed, there's a link anyway. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

International

• The case of Juan Requesens is the latest in a long litany ..." – I would remove this part of the quote since another guy said almost the exact same thing just earlier

•  Done Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• and denounced that this had happened to someone who won the Sakharov Prize. – So someone else and not Requesens, right? It's a bit unclear, so if you can add the name of the person that would help.

• I've tried, see if you like it. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• The Lima Group and its nations stated that they "strongly condemn and reject the violation of due criminal process and international norms in matters of law enforcement and respect for human rights, in the arbitrary and illegal detention without any previous investigation of National Assembly representative, Juan Carlos Requesens", saying that it was an "open violation of their parliamentary privileges and immunities enshrined in the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela (Article 200), as well as the American Convention on Human Rights, the American Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Man, and the Charter of the Organization of American States, among other applicable international instruments" and expressing "deep concern on the use of the Venezuelan State security and justice apparatus to persecute political opponents, which indicates, once more, the breakdown of democratic rule and the continued violation of its Constitution, contrary to the will of the Venezuelan people". – Too long of quotefarm here. Please paraphrase.

•  Done Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

"Yo me niego a rendirme"

• After the death of Fernando Albán, another Justice First politician who was illegally arrested and who died in SEBIN custody in October 2018, protesters marched with signs bearing the slogan. – WP:OVERLINK; also, we already know who Albán is, so consider trimming the description or adding it for the first mention of him earlier in the section. Just keep the fact that protesters marched with signs bearing the slogan.

•  Done Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

References

• Ref #47: [unreliable source?]Morales P., Maru (23 January 2018). "Guaidó se juramentó en Cabildo Abierto como presidente encargado". Crónica Uno. Archived from the original on 7 February 2019. Retrieved 24 January 2019. – It has an unreliable source tag. Can you replace this or explain if this is reliable?

• Though not on the WP:VENRS list, the Human Rights Watch uses Crónica Uno for facts about the region (e.g. here) and it's run by Carlos Correa, so I feel it's reliable. It was probably tagged because it's hosted like a blog, but the state of free media in Venezuela can force some sites to do that. Kingsif (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Response

• @MX: Edits made, and responses to comments above. Kingsif (talk) 19:47, 5 October 2019 (UTC)