Talk:Destruction of Irish country houses (1919–1923)

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Sectarian violence vs Big House burning

I think we have a bit of a conceptual problem here. There is a conflation between two different topics, the extent to which southern Protestants in general were the subject of attacks and the destruction of the Big Houses of the gentry. While there is some crossover, they are not the same topic.

For instance, in the case of the the War of Independence section, we have a whole paragraph dealing with the propensity of the IRA to shoot Protestants as informers, especially in Cork. Now this is a live debate in Irish historical circles, but what does it have to do with destroying country mansions? I don't really see why it is in this article.

Secondly, as I've tried to show in the edits I've made, the attack on the Big Houses in late 1922 and early 1923 was a specific IRA policy intended to be a reprisal for the executions, part of a wider campaign of destruction and intimidation aimed at Free State supporters. Now while there probably was a sectarian element to the targeting of the gentry's houses - labeling them 'Imperialists and Freemasons' etc - it should not be confused with an attack on southern Protestants in general, which it was not. Contrary to what was stated in the article up to my last edit, I am not aware of orders ever being given to target CoI clergymen.

Now please don't misunderstand me. I am not arguing that there were not attacks on southern Protestants in this period. There were, but it needs to be the subject of a whole other article. The whole timeline is different. The major outbreaks of sectarian animosity happened, first, during the War of Independence - in some areas, when the IRA targeted informers. Then second and in some ways worse, during the Truce period, after the Treaty, in early 1922, when British forces withdrew, when violence in Belfast reached its peak and nationalists perceived that Belfast Catholics were subject of a 'pogrom'. This period - January to June 1922, is when the Church of Ireland Gazette and other sources complained most of robbery, intimidation, Church burnings and even murder - like the Dunmanway killings. Whether we put the violence of that period down to the IRA (pro or anti-Treaty) general anarchy, popular sectarianism or all of the above, it is a mistake to conflate it with the civil war burning campaign against the Big Houses. None of the latter were attacked in early 1922 when the violence against southern Protestants was at its worst and anti-Protestant intimidation actually eased during the Civil War itself.

Jdorney (talk) 11:02, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RMS125 re Mrs Lindsay, per above, and why is it relevant ot this article? Thank you. Jdorney (talk) 20:08, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is entirely important as a particularly violent and revanchist attack on an elderly Protestant widow by a group of IRA, led by Frank Busteed. Most assaults on the country houses were non-violent, and certainly non-lethal. As an important exception to the rule, the info re Mrs. Lindsay must remain. Why you would want to remove it for no valid reason is curious. Quis separabit? 14:38, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If I may, I have outlined my reasons above in considerable detail. Mrs Lindsay was not killed as part of the house burning campaign. To reiterate, I am more than willing to work with you or others on an article on sectarian violence against southern Protestants in the period. My objection is that it is not relevant to this article. Best, Jdorney (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RMS, can you please respond to the points I have raised above? Thank you, Best Jdorney (talk) 20:17, 20 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

RMS, I am trying to avoid an edit war here, but if you do not respond to the point I have raised above, I will go ahead and make the changes and then call in arbitration if necessary. Best regards, Jdorney (talk) 21:06, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Exceptions

I've added a few exceptions as examples. In fact there were a lot of these, and many houses were taken down by the owners before 1960 because they cost too much. Also the local economic effects of terminating thousands of staff agreements is indisputable; less local shopping, less use of railways and post offices, less rates received.78.16.41.64 (talk) 10:40, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Burning of Brackley house, Co Cavan and killing of retired Church of Ireland Dean of Leighlin Cathedral, John Finlay

Your article misses the very significant destruction of Brackley House in Co. Cavan.

In June 1921, retired Church of Ireland Dean of Leighlin Cathedral, John Finlay, was seized at his home, Brackley House in Bawnboy, Co Cavan. The IRA shot him dead and burned down the house.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Finlay_(Dean_of_Leighlin)

https://www.theirishstory.com/2019/09/28/the-border-counties-in-the-irish-war-of-independence-1918-21/#.YGLv72go8UE

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=721984.18 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.168.65.61 (talk) 09:49, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]