Talk:Dendera zodiac

A fact from Dendera zodiac appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 February 2008, and was viewed approximately 5,323 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Dendera zodiac (pictured), an ancient relief on display at the Louvre, was originally a planisphere on the ceiling of a temple in Egypt?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/February.

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Needed articles.

We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.

Cleanup.

To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?

Standardize the Chronology.

A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the dates !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source, you can date it 2590-2567 or 2585-2563)

Stub sorting

Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Wikipedia, but if you believe it needs to be done . . .

Data sorting.

This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of Wikipedia than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge quotations or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.

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Inconsistency

If the pronaos was added under the Emperor Tiberius (reigned 14-37), and the relief forms an integral part of the pronaos, then it is impossible for the relief to have been created in "50 BC." What perhaps was intended was that the star patterns approximately match those of "50 BC," but it is of course impossible to astronomically date with such precision a representation which is itself imprecise.

Also, as far as I can tell, Cauville et al. have fudged their data, and the alignment they claim did not actually take place at the time they claim. RandomCritic (talk) 13:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Joint or saw mark?

Is the apparent joint that passes through the middle of the carving due to limitations on the size of the stone blocks originally used, or was it sawed through to make it easier to transport to Paris? 70.15.114.2 (talk) 19:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but it would be interesting to know. Another odd thing about this joint, besides being badly refitted at the breasts of the goddesses (?) wearing that heaven, is that a few of the figures cut apart are still half figures, one part at either side of the joint and the part at the other side missing. Something went amiss when the blocks were removed from Dendera, maybe. Maybe a few of the figures were seriously damaged at some stone block movement. Said: Rursus ☻ 20:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pole star

Seems like the French image from Louvre has a pole star somewhere farther at the back of that jackal on the plough of Taweret. If that jackal back is Ursa Minor, then it's consistent with epsilon or zeta Ursae Minoris being pole stars, topical in the hundreds around 0 AD. Said: Rursus ☻ 20:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Something along this line, reported from published work, would illuminate the bald assertion "...50 BC, since it shows the stars and planets in the positions they would have been seen at that date." --Wetman (talk) 03:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The current sources aren't modern enough. The source explaining Champollion's dating, which is plausible, also reports another analysis claiming that the positioning of the constellations are just "wishful thinking", which is greatly exaggerated. Most zodiacal constellations are placed reasonably well, excepting Cancer (constellation), most other unknown constellations coincide with real star patterns, f.ex. the back of the north pole jackal coinciding with Ursa Minor, that Taweret figure reasonably coinciding with stars in Draco and probably Cepheus. It might be that the Dendera Zodiac is academic hotstuff that not many academics dare touching, but hopefully that is not the case, and we might find better sources out there. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 16:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Taurus and Libra

Surely the zodiac disc depicts all 12 zodiacal signs? Why are these two called out explicitly in the introduction? Timbojones (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:21, 16 May 2010 (UTC).[reply]

Multiple zodiacs? also sources

The first line of the 'History' section currently reads: During the Napoleonic campaign in Egypt, Vivant Denon drew the circular zodiac, the more widely known one, and the rectangular zodiacs. As I recall there was only one rectangular zodiac found at Dendera, but there were also a couple at Esneh. Could these have been conflated by the original author of this article?

The article could use more current sources. I'll point out Jed Z. Buchwald's nice article on the 19th century debate on the zodiac which is available online http://eands.caltech.edu/articles/LXVI4/buchwald.html Maybe someone could use it to spruce up the Wikipedia article a bit. 173.66.1.39 (talk) 03:56, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Big errors !!!

Hello to all,

I am amazed to see that the last correction of certain parts of this article, was deleted!

I am a English speaker but i learnt the French language and i can assert that a big part of this article on the Zodiac of Denderah is as well fanciful as full of errors.

I thought that the writing of articles of Wikipedia offered a guarantee of seriousness and searches to avoid spreading the big errors.

I invite you to make translate the page in French about the Dendera Zodiac to notice where are your errors.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiaque_de_Denderah

That if the Musée du Louvre had not evaluated the French page dedicated to the Zodiac of Denderah on Wikiépedia, this page would have no presentation which it has at the moment.

Would the French speakers be more serious than the English speakers?

As long as this page would not have been corrected, it is certain that the English speakers will have this sad reputation regarding Egyptology...

Friendly — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.26.38.21 (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

no traduction possible !? (sorry for my english)

Salutations. Pourquoi la page anglophone est-elle la seule à ne pouvoir être traduite sur le Wikipédia francophone ? Amicalement --LOGOS & ALOGOS (talk) 22:10, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@LOGOS & ALOGOS: you ask ". Why is the English page the only one that can not be translated? Is there anything to hide from the English-speaking world?" You don't mention translation software here, but that seems to be your question. I've asked here. Doug Weller talk 12:25, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@LOGOS & ALOGOS: Please provide proper context for questions. If you want to use the "Content Translation" tool at the bottom of Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures to translate from the French Wikipedia to the English Wikipedia then Wikipedia:Content translation tool says: "The English Wikipedia community has restricted article creation by the WMF's semi-automatic content translation tool to extended confirmed users." PrimeHunter (talk) 12:57, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PrimeHunter: thanks for this. I'm disappointed to see that this editor has been adding original research to the related French articles (and been told that they shouldn't_. Doug Weller talk 13:09, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PrimeHunter: thanks--LOGOS & ALOGOS (talk) 09:05, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

stolen?

The page Dendera Temple complex has this to say about the Zodiac:

In 1820 it was removed from the temple ceiling by French colonizers and replaced with a fake. There is controversy as to whether they were granted permission by Egypt's ruler, Muhammad Ali Pasha, to do so, or whether they stole it. The real one is now in the Louvre.

Shouldn't this business have some mention on the page about the Zodiac itself? Marnanel (talk) 19:08, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of reliable modern sources

The article suggests that between 1865 and the early 1990s no serious astronomical research was done on the Dendera zodiac and further suggests that the work published by Cauville en Aubourg in the 1990s is the final word on the dating of the monument. Note that their dating is based on the assumption that the Dendera zodiac represents a horoscope. Earlier scholars (such as Otto Neugebauer & Richard A. Parker, Egyptian Astronomical Texts: Part III. Decans, Planets, Constellations and Zodiacs (Providence/London: Brown University Press/Lund Humphries, 1969), pp. 72-74 & passim) have argued that the planets are depicted at their points of exaltation, a planetary configuration which in fact can never occur.

I suggest adding references to earlier research on the Dendera zodiac by Heinrich Karl Brugsch, Franz Boll and the Neugebauer/Parker book for pointing out that other interpretations are also possible. AstroLynx (talk) 09:09, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No objection. It doesn't look like this article has been worked on in a while, aside from the recent edits by User:EgyptianAstro. I don't know what to make of those edits, but participation from a more experienced Wikipedia with astronomical expertise would be welcome. A. Parrot (talk) 13:51, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi A. Parrot,

"with astronomical expertise would be welcome"

I proposed these serious astronomical elements, you can verify them with the references :

" But since the creation of astronomical software created by astronomer Xavier Jubier, member of the IAU ( https://www.iau.org/administration/membership/individual/15159/ ) and partner of NASA (https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsearch/SEsearchmap.php?Ecl=19470520), it has been shown that the solar eclipse indicated by Eric Aubourg could never be observed in Egypt. Moreover, it was not a total solar eclipse, but an annular one.(http://xjubier.free.fr/site_pages/solar_eclipses/xSE_GoogleMap3.php?Ecl=-00500307&Acc=2&Umb=1&Lmt=1&Mag=0)

Regarding the lunar eclipse, it did not take place on September 25, but on September 26 (https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/5MCLEmap/-0099-0000/LE-0051-09-26T.gif) as indicated by NASA. Depending on the position of this eye, since there isn't a circular shape exactly opposite this eye, so there can't be a schematic representation of a lunar eclipse because there can't be two suns on this sandstone. It is not one representation of an eclipse, it is rather the oldest representation of the Andromeda Galaxy, also named M31.

The right ascension of this galaxy corresponds to the position of this eye if we present the Zodiac of Dendera in the right direction (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k9621728m/f370.texteImage ) determined by the French astronomer (Jean-Baptiste Biot) Jean-Baptiste Biot (1774-1862), author of the book titled "Research on several points of Egyptian astronomy applied to astronomical monuments found in Egypt" published in 1823,, by Firmin Didot editions (https://books.google.be/books?id=MfleAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false) . Based on astronomical calculations, he determined that this Egyptian artifact displays the sky of the year 716 BCE (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k9621728m/f100.item.r=716.zoom) according to the position of the star Sirius.

Eric Aubourg was published exclusively internally within the IFAO (French Institute of Oriental Archaeology). His theory was never submitted to a committee of readers, nor published in an astronomy magazine. It is therefore recommended to rely on the career of a true astronomer such as Jean-Baptiste Biot, also renowned for his mastery of physics and mathematics."

Above is my modest participation who could be modified of course but why Grachester deleted it all ?

My serious participation was judged not neutral, but I am not Xavier Jubier, I found his website on the Nasa website, where I verified the solar eclipse indicated by Eric Aubourg.

This article without my participation was already not neutral because Eric Aubourg is member of administration of IFAO as we can read on his page in French : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ric_Aubourg

IFAO isn't a private society, it is just a department of the Minister of French Culture, its publications are internal and distributed only to the members.

Eric Aubourg never published his theory in an astronomical magazine sold in bookstore, his theory was never verified by astronomers.

Who isn't neutral ? Who not verify the elements ? Who is too lazy to read all the references and the bibliography ? Who don't respect the readers, the students, the knowledge ? Not me !

I did the job that all wikinauts must do before publish a serious article. But some of you don't want a person as me, because too much work for them.

The problem with Wikipedia is because some Wikinauts are there since years, they believe that Wikipedia became their propriety, they don't want to modify anything because they don't want to show to all they wrote a wrong article.

What a pity ! EgyptianAstro (talk) 20:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

About the partnership between Nasa and the software of astronomy by Xavier Jubier, below the direct link :

https://nasasearch.nasa.gov/search?query=Xavier+Jubier&affiliate=nasa&utf8=%E2%9C%93

Just use the link below (recommended by Nasa) to see that Egypt could not observe the solar ecipse of March 7 50 BCE because the solar obscuration rate was below 40% in Alexandria and less than 20 % in Dendera: :

http://xjubier.free.fr/site_pages/solar_eclipses/xSE_GoogleMap3.php?Ecl=-00500307&Acc=2&Umb=1&Lmt=1&Mag=0

Any serious astronomer will tell you that it takes at least 88% of solar obscuration for an eclipse to be observed as an annular eclipse and 100 % of solar obscuration for a total eclipse.

That's why is preferable to retain the dating by Jean-Baptiste Biot, he did astronomical calculations and he find the year ; 716 BCE; He found this dating because he made a stereographical projection cartography which used the position of the star named Sirius.

Anyone can read his book, it is very interesting to learn astronomy. EgyptianAstro (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've blocked this editor for legal threats. Loved this bit on their talk page "I would say to the judge that after my report about my desire to remove my images, you blocked me, thus refusing to respect my copyrights which I never ceded to you, but just lent." Editing as "Alice-astro" when they added the image. Doug Weller talk 10:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Astronomical dating of the Dendera Zodiac

Hello to all,

I have recently published the astronomically correct solution to the system that was used to define layout of the carved Gods and Zodiac symbols that constitute the inner circular sections of the Dendera Zodiac. The work is scientifically robust and the results of the work are available on the website

www.denderazodiac.com

Because of the complexity of the Dendera zodiac bas-relief sculpture and the number of possible permutations of the positions of the planets of the solar system it is impossible for the sculpture's components to be successfully reverse engineered. The work that I have published uses the date of the winter solstice of 2729 BCE as the input parameter and then references the planetary ephemerides of NASA, specifically the DE441 table, to determine the rotation parameters of the eight planets of the solar system at this moment in time, 14th January in the year 2729 BCE. The NASA data is then applied as rotations to the inner circular section of the sculpture and it is shown that the planets all then align perfectly into dedicated positions in the outer section of the sculpture. There are a total of 24 precision astronomy angles that need to be applied when using this approach, and therefore the possibility of all the planets aligning without the input date also being correct is so remote as to be implausible.

The work is a major breakthrough in terms of our understanding both the Dendera Zodiac sculpture and the fact that it is intrinsically linked to the Great Pyramid of Giza. The two entities must have been designed and built by the same people and therefore the Dendera Zodiac must date back to 2729 BCE, as does the Great Pyramid.

The determination of the date of the 2729 BCE winter solstice being the key to both the pyramid and the sculpture is covered in an academic paper "The architecture of the Great Pyramid's lower northern shaft" that was published in 2021 and which is available from the URL

www.thegreatpyramidpapers.com/paperI.html

The key to unlocking the Dendera Zodiac is to realise that the hook object that was found inside the lower northern shaft of the Great Pyramid is a perfect match for the knee sections of the outer Gods of the zodiac sculpture, which shows that the hook must be an original part of the pyramid and that the sculpture must therefore use the astronomical data that can be extracted from the pyramid's lower northern shaft. Consequently I am currently in contact with the appropriate people at the Louvre museum and the British museum and am working to get the hook object sent to the Louvre museum curator for direct comparison with the sculpture.

Because this work is a major step forwards, it needs to be included on the wikipedia page for the Dendera Zodiac, but as the author of the work I do not consider that it would be appropriate for me to add references to my own work. I am as keen as you will be to retain the integrity of the page. I am therefore posting this to the page discussion and would ask everyone who is tracking this page to look at the published works and then add to this wikipedia page accordingly.

The understanding of the remarkable technical accuracy of the rotations and alignments of the sculpture to the known astronomy angles requires a decent overall understanding of the fundementals of planetary motion and I am also in contact with the department within NASA that creates the DE441 ephemeris. I would suggest that contacting other people within the wikipedia community who have this type of astronomy knowledge would be a good step when considering how to document this work on the Dendera Zodiac page of wikipedia because the remarkable nature of the discovery is concealed within the scientific accuracy of the rotation angles.

Regards, Steve Brabin 18th May 2024 Stephenbrabin (talk) 20:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Stephenbrabin I'm sorry, but we will have to wait until you have a peer reviewed paper which has been commented on by other professionals. Doug Weller talk 08:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other Egyptian zodiacs

I've been doing some light research on these, trying to get a number of how many and pictures of the best. I'm thinking about making a general page for them. Until then I'll mention others I find at this talk page, whereas I'd been gathering some info at the reference desk. The one I found today was here^[1]. Zodiac on the ceiling of the Tomb of Petosiris. (Wikimedia category, but without the relevant.) Extremely interesting example, but lamentably overrestored. The artist seemed to be a very experienced Greco-Roman portraitist, less sophisticated with the Egyptian animal forms. I found some pics on Flickr here, no great ones with the whole thing though. One source I was discussing on the refdesk said there might be way more than three of these zodiacs, which is clear to me now. Temerarius (talk) 00:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC) Temerarius (talk) 00:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ Germond, Philippe; Livet, Jacques (2001). An Egyptian Bestiary. New York, N.Y: Thames & Hudson. p. 272. ISBN 0-500-51059-8.

[m602-1] Germond, Philippe; Livet, Jacques (2001). An Egyptian Bestiary. New York, N.Y: Thames & Hudson. p. 272. ISBN 0-500-51059-8.

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