Talk:Delilah (Tom Jones song)

Sylvan Whittingham

It seems she now calls herself Sylvan Mason. So this might affect the name of any article or categories that she gets here? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In a footnote to this article, the Telegraph says that "the registered songwriters are Barry Mason and Les Reed" - not Whittingham. Is there a story behind this? Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:52, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Sylvan Whittingham Mason claims here that the lyrics of several songs, including "Delilah", were co-written by her with her then-husband Barry Mason, and that these "were the subject of a lengthy legal battle with Barry which was settled in 1986." Several (usually reliable) news reports, reporting her words, refer to her as the song's co-writer. If there was a legal case, publicly reported, that supports her claim that she was a co-writer, it should be mentioned in this article. But so far I haven't found anything conclusive. Her Facebook biography is here, for anyone interested. In another Facebook post, she has written: "I am mostly at peace with the way things turned out including the fact that, due to the settlement of the 1986 court case (which I am not at liberty to discuss), I am legally entitled to say “I co-wrote these songs”, but there is still a part that remains a sore point when I see or read that my input, which Barry once described as the “magic ingredient” is diminished." Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:38, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see that she says, on her own website linked above, "With the proceeds of Delilah they bought 'Kinfauns' - Beatle George Harrison’s house in Esher." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:47, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why Does the Article define the some as Rock & Roll genre?

It doesn't sound Rock and Roll to me. Perhaps some defense could be added to this claim (without citation). Has some musical scholar said so? (PeacePeace (talk) 06:02, 7 August 2018 (UTC))[reply]

Agree. I have removed it. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Besame Mucho

Has anyone spoken of the similarities between Delilah and the internationally popular 1940s song 'Besame Mucho', bolero tempo, by Mexican musician-composer Consuelo Velazquez? (see her Wiki page). Give it a listen. They sound very alike, but I understand that sources would be needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.190.45 (talk • contribs) 06:46, 7 July 2020 (UTC) ‎[reply]

I can't find any sources that note the apparent resemblance. I find that quite surprising. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:19, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sylvan Whittingham (again)

Is the information about Sylvan Whittingham's legal claim correct? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:55, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. No the legal claim by Sylvan Whittingham is incorrect. In fact, she lost the claim and was prevented from raising any further claim by court order on 04.06.1985 by Mr Justice Falconer in the High Court of Justice, Chancery Division Ref 6/SC/M291/3. These claims are deeply disrespectful to a talented man who only died in April this year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.120.13 (talk) 13:29, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for discussing this. Do you have any source(s) for that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:34, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, the contentious text is this:

"In a two-year court case in The High Court of Justice, 1983 -M- No.1566 , Barry Mason's ex-wife Sylvan Whittingham, the daughter of Bond film Thunderball screenwriter, Jack Whittingham, claimed she had written half the lyrics of "Delilah" and several other songs. The legal battle that was settled out of court in 1986.^[1]^[2].

Yes, I am a family member and have a copy of the court order. If you are unsure in any way please feel free to contact the PRS. https://www.prsformusic.com/help/contact-us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.120.13 (talk) 14:04, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You'll need to provide an actual source that can be seen. Which part(s) of the text do you dispute? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:09, 2 October 2021 (UT

The part of the test I dispute is that it was settled out of court. She lost the case and it was ordered that she cannot raise further claims. The reference number is available above and this can be veified with the High Court Chancery Division as the primary form of legal reference.

Thanks for clarifying. Although it may sound strange, someone going off to check something via the High Court Chancery Division is considered WP:Original Research and thus not allowed. But if that court order is in the public domain and you can provide enough information for any reader to be able to access it, that may be acceptable. However, it's still a primary source. What we really need it a reliable source where that court order was reported. Meanwhile The Guardian is considered a WP:RS and the obituary of Mason says quite plainly "This prompted a lengthy legal battle that was settled out of court in 1986." The Wales Online article also repeats Whittingham's claim that the song was written jointly, together with a lot of background detail that all sounds quite plausible. Regarding the recent death of Mason, I'm sorry but that really has no bearing on the relative arguments. In any case, the WoL article was published 5 years ago, long before Mason's death. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Martin. You will see here https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/12145404/Ex-wife-of-Delilah-songwriter-rubbishes-claim-that-song-incites-violence.html that at the bottom of the page, The Telegraph have had to retract previous claims. 'CLARIFICATION: An earlier version of this article referred to Sylvan Whittingham as the writer of Delilah. In fact, the registered songwriters are Barry Mason and Les Reed. We are happy to make this clear.' We have taken legal advice and are in the process of contacting all the newspapers with the support of Sony's legal team and our own solicitors. As you may understand, this has been a very difficult time for the family, so we have not, until now, had the strength to address this ongoing issue. We very much hope you will correct this in advance of the corrections being made. Sylvan Whittingham caused Barry much distress over the years, we are just trying to right by him in his death. Many thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.120.13 (talk) 21:15, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Barry Mason obituary". the Guardian. April 26, 2021.
^ McCarthy, James (February 20, 2016). "'It's a ****ing hit!' Delilah writer after penning Tom Jones' smash". WalesOnline. "The Delilah lyrics were written in an office belonging to Stuart Reid, of Chappel Music, at 19 St George Street, London, from a tape recording of the melody and chorus line of 'Aye, aye, aye Delilah'," Sylvan said.

Censorship of lyrics for the Ed Sullivan performance, or not

The page says the lyrics were censored, but a video of the performance says otherwise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=65&v=MIIU9xkGAMs). Also, the cited references that I can actually access don't really back up the statement that he changed the lyrics. Ref 2 (https://www.edsullivan.com/artists/tom-jones/) suggests that he only performed the song on one of his appearances on the show. Ref 3 is a book I can't access. Ref 4 (biography by Aubrey Malone) has two phrases that slightly contradict each other; it says "the censors insisted he change the line" but also that "as well as being coy it would have been nonsensical", with the second quote strongly suggesting that he didn't accept the censorship and performed the original version. Malone should probably have written "attempted to insist...". Given that the video is very unambiguously indicating that the original version was performed, I will adjust the words in the page accordingly. Smudgeface (talk) 13:46, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Barry Mason obituary". the Guardian. April 26, 2021.

[2] McCarthy, James (February 20, 2016). "'It's a ****ing hit!' Delilah writer after penning Tom Jones' smash". WalesOnline. "The Delilah lyrics were written in an office belonging to Stuart Reid, of Chappel Music, at 19 St George Street, London, from a tape recording of the melody and chorus line of 'Aye, aye, aye Delilah'," Sylvan said.

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