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Talk:Death of Adolf Hitler/Archive 5

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Requested move 8 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 12:37, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Death of Adolf Hitler → Suicide of Adolf Hitler – He committed suicide by shooting himself with a gun so its a suicide and not a natural death. Jishiboka1 (talk) 08:52, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  • Oppose As per Walrasiad, and ngram viewer also states that usage of death is more common than suicide in context of Hitler. >>> Extorc.talk(); 09:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Support. If you type "Suicide of" or "Murder of" in the WP search bar, you see many such articles named using more specific phrasing. Keep in mind that Google search results include synonyms (although invoking quotes used to exclude them). The word "death" has many alternative forms, while suicide doesn't. UpdateNerd (talk) 10:25, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
    • Strong Oppose. The above reasoning demonstrates the absurdity of the suggestion to change the title as being entirely motivated by the wrong things, and serving all the wrong purposes. First, the fact that articles CAN may be titled with the alternatives does not mean that all articles MUST so titled. The argument only holds water where a claimant's intention is to enforce a trend the claimant prefers. Second, web search results should not have any bearing whatsoever on how to title an article. The objective should be to accurately communicate a topic of discussion to the human user. Accordingly, the above argument highlights that the only thing accomplished by changing the title is the fulfillment of objectives which are inappropriate considerations for naming a Wikipedia article in the first place.96.234.205.3 (talk) 21:32, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose None of the WP:RS books used for this GA rated article use the proposed word change. The overwhelming way the event is referred to in these works and others is by the title currently used by the article. As stated above, it is the common way to refer to the event. Even the 1968 Soviet propaganda book, is entitled The Death of Adolf Hitler. As one who helped bring this up to GA, it is clear that the Soviet disinformation and fringe views are shown to be false. I think it’s a stretch to say that the current title gives credence to fringe views in some fashion. Also, per AusLondonder, above. Kierzek (talk) 13:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NATURALNESS. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per AusLondonder. WikiLinuz {talk} 🍁 15:45, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
  • NEIN! per the above. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 16:37, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose this is a minority viewpoint, there is already Conspiracy theories about Adolf Hitler's death and even if suicide was strongly suspected but not confirmed the current title would be more accurate for if it wasn't. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:40, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment: This raises why I supported the unpopular proposal. Conspiracy theories about his "death" assert that he didn't die by suicide. The official account is that he did commit suicide. The more ambiguous term "death" was fitting when the death was still under investigation. Now, the cause is proven beyond doubt and it's a confirmed suicide. So sticking to "Death of Adolf Hitler" because it's been popularized by historical "what if" discussions (or a propaganda book!) is poor reasoning. UpdateNerd (talk) 04:20, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
  • OK, struck the "strong" but since when was there a general agreement he committed suicide, when I looked at the article a few years ago I can't remember reading this and that it was only a minority viewpoint but that may have been to the escape. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:49, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Since the mid-1940s among Western scholars, based on eyewitness accounts. The version you remember probably focused on the 2009 DNA test showing that cranial remains in the Russian archives belonged to a female. This merely proved that the long-disregarded Soviet account (that they found a complete body, not just the dental remains) is false. UpdateNerd (talk) 09:06, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
If one reads this article, which has been GA rated since 2013, the evidence presented clearly shows that he died in April, 1945. You may be thinking of the similar article on the Soviet propaganda book, entitled, The Death of Adolf Hitler or the article as to Hitler conspiracy theories. Kierzek (talk) 01:12, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Support. As both titles are WP:NDESC and not WP:COMMONNAME, it is not really relevant which is used more commonly in other sources contrary to the comments above. The key thing are the five criteria at WP:CRITERIA and I think there is a reasonable argument that "suicide" is both more "precise" and in line with our general practice of naming deaths on Wikipedia. I also agree with UpdateNerd's views on the desirability of avoiding fringe viewpoints here. —Brigade Piron (talk) 09:41, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per the guidance at WP:DEATHS and Brigade Piron. I agree that this is a descriptive title, not a name, so relative usage in reliable sources is a weaker argument than it would be otherwise. Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 12:52, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose to match Death of Benito Mussolini. In both cases the death is what is important, not the method. We would have these articles still if Mussolini had died in plane crash and Hitler had been killed by Soviet shelling. —Srnec (talk) 19:01, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
I disagree. This article strongly revolves around Hitler's decision to kill himself, including the background (e.g. testing cyanide pills) and posthumous events carried out according to his newly dictated will. A different method of death for Hitler make for an extremely different article, as opposed to Mussolini dying in some other way near the end of the war in Europe. UpdateNerd (talk) 09:36, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:DEATHS and Brigade Piron's refutation of the WP:COMMONNAME argument. The fact that Death of Benito Mussolini is at its present location is simply WP:OSE. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:50, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The article is not just about the suicide itself but also the background and ramifications of his death. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:02, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per User:Necrothesp. The article is not just about the act of suicide itself. JIP | Talk 19:53, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
    I don't understand this reasoning. You could equally say that the article is not just about the act of dying itself. Ruбlov (talk • contribs) 21:04, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
    I refer you to the arguments given by User:AusLondonder and User:Srnec. The main point is that Hitler died, not that he killed himself. I don't think the events that followed Hitler's death would have been much different if he had died in some other way. JIP | Talk 14:22, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
    Mussolini's and Epstein's deaths weren't suicides that had been planned out in significant detail. As Hitler's was, much of the background deals with the planning for that event, with the aftermath also 100% impacted by his followers carrying out direct orders. If he had died some other way, there wouldn't have been such planning nor a last will. As we don't cover the larger ramifications of his death (as in the beginning of the Cold War or raising of the Iron Curtain), we actually don't talk about the general impact. We only discuss the relevant details and evidence of his specific method of death. UpdateNerd (talk) 17:48, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
    Everybody dies. Not every death need be a Wikipedia article. Not everyone about whom a Wikipedia article exists will have a separate article discussing their death. Seems to me the reason why the death is a significant historical event ought to be a key factor. Is the suicidal act the main reason the death is historically relevant? Or is the mere death of the individual the primary source of historical significance? In the case of Hitler, the fact that he committed suicide is not the main historical relevance of his death (regardless of whether the suicide was planned). He could have died of a sudden heart attack that day, or from enemy fire, or could have been taken captive by the Soviet army and immediately executed, and his death would have had the same essential historical relevance. For comparison, had Osama bin Laden shot himself in the head seconds before being killed by SEALs, the historical significance of his death would not have been effected and would therefore not beg for the relevant article to be renamed. Alternate comparison: Had Julius Caesar dropped dead of a heart attack on that fateful day, the ensuing power struggle and civil war that finally ended the Republic likely would have not changed at all, and his death itself would still be worthy of a separate article for discussion. But the assassinative act itself is of such historical relevance that it overshadows interest, even despite the fact that his death alone would be independently historically relevant. So using "assassination" as the title of that article ends up being appropriate (even if not entirely necessary). Based on the historical record, Hitler's suicidal act is of subservient relevance to the most relevant fact that Hitler was dead. Yes, the suicide is of relevance. It informs us that, in the end, Hitler was just a pathetic coward. But a suicide alone would not warrant having a separate article to discuss Hitler's death. Accordingly, it seems inappropriate to title this article based on the suicidal act, because the suicide is a subservient aspect of the important event. With all of that being said, I agree that this article doesn't do as good of a job as would be hoped for of addressing how Hitler's death, served as an integral event to accelerate the final collapse of the Nazi regime and of Nazi ideology. But that is a failing of the writing, not a defining feature of the subject. The article should be improved. It should not have the title changed so as to preclude that content from having a place in the article's future development. After all, if the article on Physics lacked discussion on quantum mechanics, it wouldn't make sense to rename the entire article to "classical physics". It would make more sense to contribute to the article to more fully address the subject matter. 96.234.205.3 (talk) 16:37, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
That's a great point; this article could benefit from a "Legacy" section to address the overall impact of the death, which as you say isn't just about it being a suicide. (When the renaming proposal was made, I initially wanted to oppose it, but then decided to support it for its increased specificity. I'm not changing my vote, but I think your opposing argument is the strongest stated.) UpdateNerd (talk) 20:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
This article is a sub-article to the main article on Hitler. That GA rated article has a "Legacy" section that covers Hitler. Therefore, one is not necessarily needed herein, but with that said, a short section as to his death is agreeable and I made a short addition to what you wrote, UpdateNerd. I await others to review the section for copy edits and any further addition. Kierzek (talk) 03:41, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and naturalness. The arguments for the move based on WP:DEATHS seem to involve reading into the penumbra of that document a distinction between descriptive titles and "names", with "Death of Adolf Hitler" not being an example of the latter and therefore being immune from WP:DEATHS's first step of trying to ascertain a COMMONNAME. That seems like a stretch to me. Colin M (talk) 18:48, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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