Talk:Ddakji

Requested move 3 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 06:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

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Ddakji → Ttakji – "Ttakji" abides by Revised Romanization of Korean ("RR"). I dislike "ddakji" because it's not a valid spelling in neither of the two major romanization systems: RR and McCune–Reischauer ("MR").

I'd argue there is no WP:COMMONNAME. Neither spellings show up in Ngrams. "Ddakji" is ever slightly more popular in news articles than the more correct "ttakji" in some simple Google searches, but it's like 48 vs 9 articles from mostly low quality pop culture sources; hardly a consensus I'd argue. By contrast, the Encyclopedia of Korean Folk Culture [1], uses "ttakji", and so does Korea.net [2].

I'm admittedly a little bothered by the power that Wikipedia has on language, and that if we keep this "incorrect" spelling on Wikipedia it'll make it even more popular. Romanization of Korean is already beset with inconsistent spellings and I dislike the thought of making the problem worse. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 01:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 09:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Alternatively, maybe "Ttakji chigi" is a more appropriate name; that's the name of the game, and not just the toy itself. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 02:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

When searching for sources, it seems most of them (the reliable ones) still called it "ddakji", such as the Dong-A Ilbo, the Korea JoongAng, Yonhap, Korea.net, and even the LA Times and NBC (the Korea Times was the exception). I’m going to oppose the move, as "ddakji" seems to be the WP:COMMONNAME, even if it is doesn't follow romanization standards.

I should also point out that the term "ddakji" probably developed independently of Wikipedia, as the article was branched out from the milk caps article on November 28 2021, and all of the sources I listed (minus the korea.net one) were published before the "ddakji" article’s creation. Additionally, the Korean subsection on milk caps before it got branched out actually gave priority to "ttakji", as seen here. In other words, the use of “ddakji” came before Wikipedia’s use of it. Dantus21 (talk) 14:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, I know that ddakji predates Wikipedia; I just don't want Wikipedia to prolong it. I may just have to take the L on this one and accept that another inconsistent romanization is going to stick... I wish Korea had something as consistently applied as pinyin. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 18:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I've thought about this for a while, and ... I'm not sure. It's pretty unfortunate that Netflix used "ddakji" instead of "ttakji" in the subtitles for Squid Game, as this was most of the world's first introduction to this toy and is now how most people seem to refer to it. As the nominator pointed out, it's an objectively incorrect romanization, but one that appears more often (but far from exclusively) in English-language sources. (Ngrams only goes up to 2019, so it doesn't capture the significant impact that Squid Game (2021) had.) However, it doesn't appear that often, so it's debatable if WP:TRANSLITERATE applies (if there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject): if it doesn't, then the title should be "ddakji"; if it does, then it should be "ttakji".

More generally, I also wanted to note that this is far from the only case where a relatively popular Korean term with a tensed consonant is romanized contrary to RR: for example, Squid Game also gave us "gganbu" instead of "kkanbu"; Blackpink's song is Ddu-Du Ddu-Du, not "Ttu-Du Ttu-Du"; BTS's song is "Ddaeng", not "Ttaeng", etc. It sort of makes sense—if an initial ㄱ is "g", an initial ㄷ is "d", and an initial ㅂ is "b", then why shouldn't ㄲ, ㄸ, and ㅃ be "gg", "dd", and "bb"? (Some might even argue that the tensed consonants sound more like "g", "d", and "b" than "k", "t", and "p".)

Ultimately, as the nominator mentioned, Korean romanization is less consistent than some would like (cf. Korean surnames; romanizing ㅓ as "u" instead of "eo" ("mukbang"); etc.), so it's not the worst thing in the world if this article stays at "ddakji". But I'm not sure if "ddakji" appears often enough to qualify as a common name. Malerisch (talk) 11:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for considering this, I think we're on the same page. I don't know why RR isn't taught more thoroughly to South Korean school children; it's clearly a valuable skill for a globalized country. Most of these problems would disappear if it did. Pinyin is taught for Chinese students (although pinyin does serve as an alphabet for them so a bit different). 104.232.119.107 (talk) 18:38, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.