Talk:David Darom

Conflict of interest, need for third party sources

Self promoted, self published books and article is heavily edited by himself!.Teapotgeorge^Talk 16:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi there, I wrote the article about David Darom - Biography of a living person. After writing I asked Darom to review the artical and to load to the public domain some of him valuable photographs - this is an advantage to write about a living person :) you can check yourself with the original. I'll check agsin the article and remove the books pictures and so on.Ntronb (talk) 18:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Please also note that forums are not considered reliable references.Teapotgeorge^Talk 18:08, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

There are no third party references and notability is in doubt.Teapotgeorge^Talk 18:38, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello - Can you please explain what do you mean bt third party references ? Thanks Ntronb (talk) 09:39, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I tried to fix the article acorrding to your suggestions - do think it's ok now? If so please remove the removal of the warning. Ifnot please guide what to do. Thanks Ntronb (talk) 07:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

More: Dear George, Thanks for your attention and your help in editing my article David Darom. I wrote this article, and since it is a biography of a living person (one of the best nature photographer in Israel) I asked him to review my article, and also to load to the public domai some of his grreat photographs. I understand your comment regrading advertisment and removed the pictures of his books. Please let me know what elso to change. Happy new Year!Ntronb (talk) 18:19, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi again - Regarding your comment about forums: The forum references are of several Book Reviews only or of a factual stating of an event (the Guild's award)... Not just "talk"... I ask Darom to leave the article - since I understood this is not ethic to let someone to edit his own biography.

This is my first article in Wiki and I realy learn a lot - please don't hasitate to wite me more comments and let me know what should I do in order to remove the delete threat. Best Ntronb (talk) 14:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC) Ntronb (talk) 14:45, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

There are still no independent references, the references you have added are just links to his books or photos. You need to find coverage in newspapers or articles that refer to him or review his work. ( A third party reference is one with no connection to the articles subject) The photographs all have peculiar red linked titles. The text is gushing and full of peacock terms. His books appear to be mostly self published and there is no evidence of notability yet.Teapotgeorge^Talk 18:38, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

All the reference links refer to REVIEWS of David Darom as an Author / Photographer or of his books. The only ones that are not such reviews indicate large usage of his pictures in encyclopedic productions (ref. 8 and 9) or give an example of many language translations of one volume of his books on custom knives (ref. 14). References 10, 12 and 13 are good examples of more recent complimenting magazine coverage of his books on Art Knives. One of these can immediately be accessed through the following pdf link: http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/modern-custom-folding-knives.htm.

The pictures peculiar red linked titles appeared kind of on their own, probably due to something that I did while uploading the files. Can you help me here? Of his 23 books (so far) only the last 3 are self published.... And by the way, David Darom, sent in his agreement to publishing all his uploaded pictures under "Free Art License" 1.3, being creator and/or sole owner of their exclusive copyrights. Please do remove the delete threat Happy New Year! Ntronb (talk) 07:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Dear Editors friends, Regarding the David Darom article, I noticed that the new banner set up today repeats what the previous ones stated even though a great effort has been made trying to fulfill the editor's requests. Most requests have been dealt with as I outlined in the previous note above. As for writing the article as an ad - well, David Darom does do things with a passion. This is evident in all his works that are produced and presented in a unique and original way. This is also very clearly stated in references of all third party reviews some of which are mentioned above, even adding a pdf link for easy access. I truly fail to understand why there is no indication to the fact that the Editor's requests have been explained, answered and in most cases dealt with (see previous talk above) and yet the banners remain unchanged... Best wishes, Ntronb (talk) 21:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Dear all, I would like to delete the banners - let me know if I can do that Thanks Ntronb (talk) 09:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

It seems that you have decided without consensus to remove the banners which relate to you and your edits.Teapotgeorge^Talk 20:17, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I think that I considered the comments - and therefore removed the banners. I got the feeling that they appears automatically.

Ntronb (talk) 11:17, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I am not certain which banners you removed, but I have added many whose concerns will need to be addressed. Active Banana (^bananaphone 22:03, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Dear Active Banana, I think that you were mistaken by adding all these banners to the David Darom article as all requests and requirements have already been addressed and corrected by other helpful editors and by myself, the author. (a) Everything remaining in the article has relevant third party reliable source references. (b) The article states facts about the living subject's contributions presenting only those that have reliable third party references. (c) The image galleries are all sample photographs from his documented books and were donated by David Darom for free usage by anyone. These are in no way "random images" but are examples of the uniqeness and the quality of his photographic work as displayed in the various projects cited in the article. Please find a moment to check carefully and compare the stated facts opposite their specific 3rd party references, and then, please remove the banners... Thanks. Ntronb (talk) 07:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Restored pblication list. For reasoning, see above.Ntronb (talk) 06:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

List of published books

The list of published books appears to contain many books where he has only one photograph? This seems like rather avid promotion to call them HIS books? I can find no mention of "Sadan Publishing House" are they self published? If so they are not notable enough to appear here.Teapotgeorge^Talk 16:03, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

You stole the words right out of my mouth! We don't seem to have a specific guideline or policy when it comes to things like this, but in the vein of WP:IINFO, I'd suggest we remove the list of books unless there are sources that discuss which are more important than others. I can't find anything which discusses them and it makes the page look like an advert having such a long list - that is what personal webpages are for, not WP articles. SmartSE (talk) 16:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Teapotgeorge^Talk 16:16, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:David_Darom&action=submit Dear Teapot George and others. Your asumtions about David Darom's books are completely misleading and mistaken. In all the books noted on his page he is either co-author and photographeror or sole author and photographer. This is in no way self promoting and in no way does he have any book with less than ALL the pictures in the book. In most cases 200-300 photographs and in one case more than 800. Have you seen even one of these books to pass such an untrue and insulting judgement? I have seen them all and cannot believe that you said what you said and then removed his list of publications!!! With these books David Darom has made a major contribution to the knowledge of the wildlife in the Red Sea and Eastern Mediterranean Sea, as well as the Wild Flora of Israel and Plants of the Bible, educating hundreds of thousands. When he began to create his books on Modern Custom Knife Art, he wrote the books and created all the illustrations (please read the pdf file of ref. #14), introducing this unique art form to the world as never before seen. His pictures ALSO appear in many additional books and articles where he only contributed 5-50 pictures. These of course I did not even mention. As for Sadan Publication and Masada Publishing House – they have both closed down, but the books he published with them are originall, fully illustrated volumes that stand for ever. Please return the list of publications as they are an integral part or as you call it a noteworthy part of David Darom's contribution to our world. Now for removing the illustrations. This think that was truly uncalled for as they are direct indications to the quality of the multi platformed photographic contribution of David's 40 years of photography as seen in his books. These sample pictures of wild flowers, underwater life and custom knife art are an integral part of David Darom's contribution, his life story. Please return the sample photographs of David Darom' work. As for your comment about making this a personal platform for a webpage, This too is insulting and truly uncalled for.

I added one more reference for the fish named after David Darom: Israel Journal of ZOOLOGY, Vol.47, 2001, pp111-121 Ntronb (talk) 08:52, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I corrected a link to the Hebrew University.Ntronb (talk) 09:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

We're not trying to insult anyone or degrade their work, but if no "reliable source″ like newspapers, magazines or other books have written about the books that have been published then we shouldn't include them. I spent the best part of an hour looking for references yesterday but can't find anyone who had written that he "made a major contribution to the knowledge of the wildlife in the Red Sea and Eastern Mediterranean Sea, as well as the Wild Flora of Israel and Plants of the Bible, educating hundreds of thousands". This could well be true, but unless someone has written about it, rather than you knowing it we can't include it as it is unverifiable. As for the images we are an encyclopedia, not an image repository and there were far too many listed. You can create a gallery over at our sister project, Wikicommons, and link to it from here, but articles here shouldn't be filled with images. If the article was longer, then we could include one photo, but images are supposed to illustrate the article, rather than be the subject themselves. Thanks for finding the original Upeneus davidaromi paper, I've changed the reference to a format that links to the paper. Did anyone write anything about him when he retired from HUoJ? If there was something like that, then that would be an ideal source for us to use. Lastly, please remember to assume good faith, we are all volunteers here and trying to do the best for the project as a whole, it's not particularly nice to be told that my actions are insulting, when they are made with the best aims of the project. Thanks SmartSE (talk) 10:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Dear SmartSE, first I would like to thank you for removing the templates. I also have to apologise for being a little harsh earlier, but looking at what suddenly happened after many weeks of requesting a response was quite a bit of a surpise. Stating that some of Dr. David Darom's books have only one photograph was a little misleading and based on imagination, to be polite. Don't you think that it was a little insulting too? You yourself, just like me, could not find any additional relevant references to Dr. Darom's contribution to spreading extremely well illustrated knowledge of the Red Sea, the Eastern Mediterranean Sea and wild flowers of Israel and the Bible as these were written in several local newspapers and magazines but are nearly impossible to trace and recover today, so many years later. The books and their titles speak for themselves and therefore I listed them, as Dr. Darom was the contributor of all the photography and co-authored the books or wrote them himself. I really think that these titles speak for him in a loud and clear voice. These books ARE his public contribution as are his thousands of high quality photographic images. This photography is HIS ART of documenting the world around him for others to enjoy. The few images posted on his page represent the various aspects of this art, illustrating his way of displaying the subjects he worked on for his books and they should therefore be an integral part on any article about him. Although Dr. Darom IS VERY WELL KNOWN in Israel through his books, he never seeked exposure through the various media. He felt that his books (some of which sold over 200,000 copies in a small country like Israel alone) spoke for him in a loud enough voice, and that was his reward. In the case of his page in Wikipedia, this it seems, is not enough although I disagree and think that this list of books is a part of the man behind them as are the few photographic samples of his art displayed on his page. After he retired in 2007, he went on creating several additional volumes on modern knifemaking as an art and about the artists behind this art form. Almost all documentation about these projects is found on specific Forums on the Internet and are therefore as you and others have stated, not worthy of including in his page. Finally, I think that it would really be nice (and correct in this case...) to restore the list of his books and the handfull of sample photographs (that have his permission for free usage) making this short story about a living person complete and visually pleasing too. Ntronb (talk) 08:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Restored publication list. For reasoning see above paragrph. Cheers,Ntronb (talk) 06:20, 15 February 2011 (UTC)