Talk:Daniel (given name)

On 26 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Daniel to Daniel (given name). The result of the discussion was moved.

Disambiguation

This is really a disambiguation page -- it's even marked as such -- it should be merged with the standard disambiguation page. An article called "Daniel_(name)" should probably be an etymological discussion of the name. --Delius1967 19:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this page should contain a discussion of the etymology of the name, and perhaps someone will add one. In that case, it would not be good to combine the pages. The "name" pages - Daniel (name), Anita, etc. - seem to often contain an etymology and a list of people with that name. I think it would not be a bad thing to just have the "Daniel" disambiguation page refer to the Daniel (name) page for a list of people with the first or last name of Daniel.

The problem is, whatever you do, people will start adding names onto the other article. And if you combine them, it will have to contain the etymology and other text on the name as well as the disambiguation part. You can't win...

I have been moving all the "name" pages to Category:Given names from Category:Names, so that they will all be in one spot.--Brianyoumans 04:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The MoS for dab pages indicates moving such information to "List of people named [X]", so this has been moved here (List of people named Daniel). If desired, Daniel (name) can now be an etymology of Daniel, of course. ENeville 00:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Craig

Anyone gonna add Daniel Craig to the famous people list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DannyChaos23 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 15:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Categorization of surnames

In the "Daniel as a first name" section, wisely or not, the names are split into categories--should the same be done for the "Daniel as a surname" section, given that it is quite long. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.125.212.120 (talk) 17:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I don't think splitting the list by profession is a good idea, as it makes things complicated when a person is notable for than one profession they have had during their lifetime, such as an actor-turned-politician or a person who is an actor and a musician. Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 15:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting the list by profession is a good idea. And it is done on other articles about common names. Where a person is known for more than one thing, they would best be listed according to their primary area of notability. If there are cases where the primary area of notability is not obvious, the name could be listed in more than once section.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:23, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Move page?

Perhaps move this to "List of notable people named Daniel"? --HappyCamper 01:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If they are on this list, then by definition they are notable, as per Wikipedia standards. --DLand ^TALK 02:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... --HappyCamper 02:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not only a list, it also gives info about the name, hence the current name of the article is correct. Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 15:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But the article also seems to contain a very long list of people named Daniel (or some variation of Daniel), and doesn't contain very much else. It is unclear whether it is attempting to list everyone who is mentioned on Wikipedia who is named Daniel, and if not, who should be listed and who should not. This seems like a basically undesirable situation. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence in the lead about finding in English roots in American countries

The lead contained a sentence saying "Daniel is commonly found in English roots in American countries." To me this sentence seemed strange in several ways. Rather than listing the various ways it seemed strange, I have simply deleted it. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Split article

Should the article be split into Daniel (given name) and Daniel (surname)?

Support - this is the practice with many articles such as John. This page should be a disambiguation page. St Anselm (talk) 00:51, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Splitting the article does not mean that there is an absence of a primary topic. Census reports alone show that "Daniel" is far more prevalent as a given name than as a surname, with the surname generally being derived from the given name as a patronymic anyway. bd2412 T 01:46, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support in any case, but we should also get rid of the silly primarytopic claim and make Daniel the disambig page. Dicklyon (talk) 01:50, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, keep the article, but do spinout both: List of people with the given name Daniel and List of people with the surname Daniel. Note that neither are encylopedic, but may serve as navigation aids, may be better as categories, or may be made redundant by new navigation features. Neither does this list content sit well in this article. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:13, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 February 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No consensus on whether the proposed moves are a good idea. Number 5 7 21:48, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel → Daniel (given name)
Daniel (disambiguation) → Daniel

– In the recently closed RM, it was not clear whether Daniel should be reassigned to the names page or the disambig page, as people had suggested both and the closer chose the partially disambiguated alternative; and the names page is being split (it looks like) into surname and given name pages. It makes sense to do more like John and make Daniel be the disambiguation page, with the given name, surname, biblical figure, and other meanings needing to be disambiguated. Dicklyon (talk) 02:04, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Something like this:

Daniel is a common name and surname:

Daniel (given name)
Daniel (surname), including a list of people so named
Daniel (biblical figure), perhaps the best-known Daniel

Daniel may also refer to:

Places

Daniel, Utah, a town in Utah

...

Survey and Discussion

Support as nom. Dicklyon (talk) 02:04, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A result either way is not particularly significant as there is precedent for either as the primary article. However, there is a tendency for names that also have other meanings (e.g. mark, john, bob) to have the disambiguation page as the main page, but generally the name is the primary article for words that are only used as a proper noun (e.g. Michael, Chris, Joseph).--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: This is also the name of a biblical book, like Mark and John, and unlike the Michael, Chris, and Joseph mentioned above. St Anselm (talk) 03:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But so are Luke and Micah. And the book of Daniel is linked in the first sentence of the name article anyway.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:53, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have just initiated a discussion at Luke to bring it in line with Matthew, Mark, and John. As you can imagine, I think Micah should be changed as well' but I will wait to see what happens with the other discussions first. St Anselm (talk) 04:20, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The words 'mark' and 'john' have uses other than as proper nouns. Matthew should probably be brought in line with other names that are only proper nouns. But it's not the end of the world either way. The claim that names that are also titles of books of the Bible are different to other names is essentially an invented arbitrary distinction.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, the page was just moved here. Let's give it a few months to see how the page views settle out before rushing to another move. Also, given that Mark and John are two of the books in the Jesus narrative, they are likely to be substantially more significant historically than the Book of Daniel. The Biblical book may be the origin of the name, but see Boston, Lincolnshire and Boston. bd2412 T 03:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Move Review was just closed on the basis of having this RM discussion as an alternative. One would not say that because a mistake was just made it would be too soon to talk about fixing it. Dicklyon (talk) 04:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One might say, however, that we should give this arrangement some time to shake out to see if a change in pageviews suggest that this is indeed the primary topic sought by readers. bd2412 T 04:11, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Since page views are always biased toward the base name, spending time to look at such numbers wouldn't really tell us much useful. Dicklyon (talk) 04:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The biblical book isn't the origin of the name, though it contributes to its popularity. The character in the book of Daniel is neither the only nor the first person with that name even in the Bible. Daniel, the son of David, predates the character in the book of Daniel. However, the name originates from the name Danel from at least 1400 BCE. That character is also mentioned in the book of Ezekiel, but is often misinterpreted as referring to the Daniel of the biblical book instead, even though the spelling in the original text of Ezekiel is different and the context alludes to an ancient character).--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. We agree for a change. But maybe this comment is not where you intended it? Bit of a non-sequitur here. Dicklyon (talk) 06:50, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was responding to bd2412's suggestion that the biblical book may be the origin of the name.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issue not relevant to this discussion

I have just contacted User talk:PaleAqua to request a review the procedural close. It seems logical to start with whether the original move was a good one according to consensus, and then to come back here. St Anselm (talk) 04:18, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I predict you'll not make progress with a review of a close of a review of a close of an RM discussion that left the results ambiguous and up to the closer. Dicklyon (talk) 04:20, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this last closure was a procedural one, and had nothing to do with assessing consensus. St Anselm (talk) 04:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, I don't think I will get anywhere along that line. St Anselm (talk) 04:37, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Anyway, back the the matter at hand - eight of the top ten results in Google Books are for the Book of Daniel. If there was a primary topic, it would be that book; it's certainly not the personal name. St Anselm (talk) 06:16, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion about the biblical figure has been closed, and there has been no suggestion of the book being made the primary subject.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:26, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think he is saying that the book should be primarytopic; just that the name should not be. Dicklyon (talk) 06:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support in lieu of what is probably the best solution, which is to make the book the redirect's location (or just bring it over here). Red Slash 05:53, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as I think there is a propensity for the over elevation of Judeo-Christian frames over broader cultural conceptualities. Only a fifth of the globe hews to the Bible, but a far larger proportion likely knows or knows of a "Daniel." .... DeistCosmos (talk) 20:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. There are plenty of articles about names of people where the main article is about the name, even though they have disambiguation pages that typically refer to towns, works of art, literature, music and so on. But as soon as there's something about 'the Bible', suddenly it's supposed to be the dominant subject by fiat?! There has been no claim that books of the Bible are not notable, but they are not more notable than other subjects.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:00, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How is this a rationale to oppose putting the disambig page at the base name? Did DeistCosmos misunderstand the proposal? Dicklyon (talk) 04:03, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal specifically asserts that the disambiguation page should be the main page on the basis of giving prominence to the article about the biblical subject. You don't seem to be suggesting that the disambiguation page for other articles about non-biblical names be made the main article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not. It says "It makes sense to do more like John and make Daniel be the disambiguation page, with the given name, surname, biblical figure, and other meanings needing to be disambiguated." Exactly how the biblical character is treated on the disambig page is not the issue here. Dicklyon (talk) 07:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If anything is a certainty it is that Daniel is no John. No. No, I think that the widely given human name Daniel holds the ground here. But nice patronization there!! DeistCosmos (talk) 22:51, 9 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Per the information above, the biblical character or their book in the Bible are just as notable as the given name, if not more, given that the given name's strong connection to the biblical figure. Steel1943 (talk) 20:49, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:NOT, i.e. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and the name (with its DICDEFish "article") itself is not the primary encyclopedia topic. — AjaxSmack 01:13, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Given names have incredible long-term significance, and it is quite reasonable to think that someone entering just a given name in the search box is expecting to find an article about that name. And Daniel isn't just any name, it's consistently been one of the most popular, and not just in one place, but many. When it comes to names, the most thorough stats come from the US, where it was the 10th most popular boys' name of 2013, has been as high as 5th (1985, 1990, 2007, 2008), within the top 15 every year since 1972, the top 20 every year since 1952, and has never been lower than 55 as far back as these statistics go - to 1880. Other countries' data is much less detailed and doesn't go back nearly as far, but the name still has an impressive showing in, for example: England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Ireland, British Columbia, New South Wales... there's a list of them here. Egsan Bacon (talk) 15:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, don't move any articles, but as per my comment in Talk:Daniel#Split_article, the lists of people so surnamed or first names should be spunout, leaving this page like a DABCONCEPT, detailing the meaning, origin, popularity, etc. Keep the dab page separate. "Daniel" the name is the PrimaryTopic, but this PrimaryTopic is not a list of Daniels. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:19, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Danel?

I feel perhaps some mention of Danel should be made here. 180.43.40.229 (talk) 12:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:24, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Other surnames derived from "Daniel" include McDaniel and Danielson"

Much more likely that McDaniels and O'Daniels and Some Danielson are just Anglicizations of the name Donal/Donald/Domhnall which is Gaelic for world ruler. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.20.195.39 (talk) 22:32, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2022

This edit request to Daniel has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

change Daniel is a unisex given name and a surname of Hebrew origin to Daniel is a masculine given name and a surname of Hebrew origin StolzenJaeger (talk) 23:38, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: This is actually a controversial edit, so you'll need to discuss first with other editors. Please open a new section here and start a discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:00, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Aaron Liu (talk) 05:55, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The original (very recent) change was made without any reference to sources, so I've reverted it. Elizium23 (talk) 06:02, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2022

This edit request to Daniel has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In "Related names", remove Ukrainian from Danilo line. Instead, add another line with the correct transliteration: Данило (Danylo) (Ukrainian) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danylo) Add 2 more Russian variants to the name - Данил(Danil), and Данила(Danila). (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danil and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danila_(given_name)) 109.108.94.6 (talk) 21:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Partly done: "Danil" is not cited in the corresponding source in the article and has not been added. I've added "Danylo" to the corresponding line since the two words are just the same word except one of them is in the cryllic alphabet. Everything else has been added. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:16, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article that I've linked previously (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danil), established the connection of "Danil" to "Daniel" and has the accepted source for it: https://xanim.az/gozel-muselman-adlari-ve-menalari-16614

Alternatively, see https://www.familyeducation.com/baby-names/name-meaning/daniel for "Danil" appearing in variations.

It is a rarer Russian form therefore doesn't appear in the original source. Nonetheless, it is clearly a form that exists and so should be added. 109.108.94.6 (talk) 17:57, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done Of the universe (talk) 21:02, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 21:02, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel → Daniel (given name)
Daniel (disambiguation) → Daniel

– The pageview statistics are now much clearer than they were in 2015: Daniel (biblical figure) and Book of Daniel each get more than twice the pageviews of the given name at Daniel. People arguing that the name is still primary thus have an extremely high hill to climb, and long-term significance doesn't get us over it: the biblical meanings (one of which was the pre-2015 primary topic) are emininently encyclopedic and have a great deal of enduring notability and educational value, arguably more than the name and certainly not enough to overcome the pageview gap. I don't see a primary topic here, and if there is one, it's definitely not the name. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Daniel indicates that in October there were 12.2k views of Daniel, which led to 3.1k identified outgoing clickstreams, to 27 destinations, where the biblical figure got 901 (~7.4%), List of people named Daniel got 693 (~5.7%), Book of Daniel 471 (~3.9%), and the hatnote 303 (~2.5%), followed by a smattering of others. With both the biblical figure and the Book of Daniel linked in the short lead section, and the hatnote being on top, I'm not sure what the argument is for saying the navigation is bad with respect to these particular destinations. A more straightforward list would significantly raise the amount of people who click those links from the current ~13.8%? That seems possible, but it seems doubtful that the change would be significant, because the same links are quite prominent already.
In fact one could say that the anthroponymy lists, split out per WP:NAMELIST, are less obvious being two sections down, yet readers do find them and visit them at a comparable level. Indeed, if we listed some of those people here, instead of requiring another click, they'd probably attract much more reader interest, something I've discussed before at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 55#effects of WP:NAMELIST on navigation outcomes for anthroponymy entries.
Now does this mean we shouldn't change to a simpler list format? Not sure, but I'd be more comfortable saying "tell people 'Daniel' is a generic word and not just a name, have a look at all these meanings" if we actually had non-name-related meanings that were attracting a lot of interest. --Joy (talk) 22:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support the given name is likely to be what most people think of when they here "Daniel" but the biblical figure has 23,573 views, the book has 23,009 and the Elton John song has 4,647 compared with only 7,614[[1]] for the name. The name also comes from the biblical figure which points to the the biblical figure also having long-term significance. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale please don't link views statistics from just the latest 20 days and compare those numbers without any rounding. With WikiNav, we only have a month or two of data rendered, but with mass views you can easily see years worth of stats. --Joy (talk) 10:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
20 days is the default so if you think that's not generally appropriate I'd suggest you get it changed. Unless recentism is likely a major factor 20 days is normally fine. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:16, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, this is confusing for me. Are you saying that we need to have WP:DPT actually say "don't use the smallest available statistics period" for that to be the default for us, the sentient humans tasked with interpreting these machine-generated statistics? :) --Joy (talk) 13:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

BTW the mass views software defaults are probably short because one doesn't want to encourage making expensive long-term queries by default on a website open to the whole world. It should have no bearing to how we act here. --Joy (talk) 13:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The given name is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (if anything, that would be the biblical figure). St Anselm (talk) 18:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@StAnselm the biblical figure is barely attracting the same amount of interest from readers as the navigation elements for the human names, so it's hardly a primary topic by usage. --Joy (talk) 10:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. With pageviews favoring other topics, and a comparable level of long-term significance, it's clear that – at a minimum – the given name is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 21:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. My view has changed since the discussion eight years ago. While I continue to believe the given name is the most significant topic under this title, the number of other topics with this name tilts it into disambiguation territory. BD2412 T 22:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2024

Would like to add a Lithuanian version of the name "Daniel" - Danielius. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dvisockas (talk • contribs) 14:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]