Talk:Dale Earnhardt Jr.

Untitled

how come jeff gordon links here?

New Contract Rumors

Please refrain from adding rumors and hearsay about new contracts.--STS01 13:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

POV

Before i make any changes i first want to see if anyone else agrees that the following statement might be POV influenced.

"So far Junior has had a successful 2006 season, with crew chief, Tony Eury Jr., including numerous top 10's and a win at Richmond International Speedway. Many analysts predict Earnhardt will be a legitimate contender for the 2006 Nextel Cup. " --Killakane24 14:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is getting a bit long, is it alright if we break it up into sections like Pre-Cup or Busch Series, 2001, and Sponsors or something to that effect.

Birthname

I can't find a source that says his true birthname. Wasn't he named "Dale Earnhardt" NOT Jr., and his father's true birthname was Ralph Dale Earnhardt Jr.? And his father took the nickname Dale to avoid confusion with his father Ralph Earnhardt? I know everyone calls him Junior, so that needs to be reflected here. There's gotta be numerous Earnhardt family experts here, but I know I'm not one of the them. Royalbroil 06:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

See [1] or [2] for #8's full name. #3 is listed as RDE Sr. Simishag 06:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I see where I was wrong: the key is the middle name. Jr.'s grandfather's middle name was Lee, not Dale. I see why I was confused!

SO: Ralph Lee (grandfather) -> Ralph Dale (Dale Sr.) -> Ralph Dale (Dale Jr.) Royalbroil 21:23, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Team Ownership

I dont really know but dont his mom own the team he is a co-owner isnt he?

Junior owns at least 1 Busch team (#88) through JR Motorsports. Not sure about the true ownership structure of that, but it is considered "his" company. I'll add a note about that. DEI owns the #8 NEXTEL team and other teams. I don't know who the shareholders of DEI are, but even if Teresa owns 100%, the "owner" should be listed as DEI, not her. Simishag 23:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Dale Earnhardt Jr. co-owns Chance 2 with his step-mother Theresa Earnhardt. That is the team that provided cars to Martin Truex Jr., who won 2 Busch Series championships in the 8 Busch car. Dale Earnhardt Jr. wholly owns JR Motorsports. Earnhardt Jr. does not even use DEI engines in this car, but are bought from RCR (Richard Childress Racing).Kf4mgz 14:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought Chance 2 closed down/merged with DEI and Junior now just runs JR? --D-Day ^{I'm all ears} 15:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Chance 2 is only running a very limited schedule in 2006, with Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Martin Truex Jr. sharing driving duties for the few races the car will be running. DEI's apparent focus in the Busch series is the #11 car driven by Paul Menard, who will most likely be driving in the Cup series in 2007 in the #15 car with Menards sponsorship.Kf4mgz 09:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

No Dale jr is not a co-owner because he does not meet w? the team in team meetings. I am sure though that he will take over the team when he retires but that wont be for some years. - I No evry thing about nascar

According to Nascar.com, Junior's team is DEI (which he supposedly is a co-owner of) but Teresa Earnhardt is his #8 car's owner of record. (That basically means she goes to the Big yellow Trailer when something goes wrong.) DEI & RCR have interlocking ownership. TimothyHorrigan20:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where the interlocking ownership comes from. DEI is wholly owned by Theresa Earnhardt (though I'm sure Dale Jr. owns some "stock" in the company) and RCR is wholly owned by Richard Childress. Theresa and Richard have a relationship, in that Dale Earnhardt drove for Richard, and Dale Earnhardt Jr. uses Richard Childress Racing engines for his JR Motorsports team in the 88 US Navy car, but other than that, DEI and RCR are separate entities. Theresa and Richard do not co-own anything.Kf4mgz 14:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Deleted Contribution

Who deleted my contribution to the fact that Dale Jr is highly overrated. It is a fact. He has yet to do anything worthy of the great praise given to him.--Ledlaxman24 01:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

While I may agree with you, this is not a discussion board but an encyclopedia! Everything must be written without a point of view, and you certainly are presenting a point of view. Please read WP:POV for Wikipedia's policy. Point of view goes both ways, both in praising and dissing someone. Edits about him being overrated with be considered vandalism by all editors, including myself, and will be reverted (see Wikipedia:Three-revert rule). Royalbroil 02:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Royalbroil. Dale Earnhardt Jr.is one of the most popular drivers in Nascar, and has to date won 17 Cup races, as well as 2 Busch series championships. That's not as many as some other drivers, but is more than a lot of other drivers.Kf4mgz 15:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The statement that he is overated is also only an opinion. Depending on one's level of "fanaticism," many may consider him "underrated."

Maybe a better way to phrase the statement is, "After winning two Busch Series Championships, Dale Earnhardt. Jr was speculated to follow in the footsteps of his father, who won multiple NEXTEL Cup Championships. Through 2006, Dale Earnhardt Jr. has yet to produce a NEXTEL Cup Championship." - Althouh this is common knowledge, I am sure we could still find a reference stating Junior was speculated to win a NEXTEL Cup Championship some time in the future (2000ish). Penciljunk 13:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Right now Jr. doesn't have the good side of luck such as Jimmy Johnson and others to win a championship, he usually is a front runner but never finishes where his car is capable of running, because of fluke finishes by drivers on fuel strategy such as Kyle Petty, or because of flat tires, pit road problems, however he is usally decent about not wrecking. But thats Jr. ever since all these dang Nascar races end under night now. Car always falls off at the end.

Plate Tracks

Somewhere around the paragraphs on the 2002 or 2003 season, there is a mention of "plate tracks". I think it would be a good idea to define the term "plate track" or provide a link to another page that describes a plate track, in order to make the article more accessible to non-diehards like myself.Davemcarlson 06:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

That's an excellent idea, and wish I had the expertise to do so. I hope someone with more knowledge of exactly how a restrictor plate works, and with a good understanding of the rules will contribute to this definition.Kf4mgz 10:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Trivia

I changed the trivia...Teresa is NOT Dale Jr's Mother. Dale Jr's Mother is Brenda Earnhardt (divorced from Dale before he married Teresa). --Gorkon 03:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Chevy Ad Controversy

I don't know why caster23 sees deleting my contribution as cleanup as it is relevant to Jr.'s career:

His career has been successful enough to allow Jr. to purchase a Learjet. A Lear 60 ferries Jr. and his associates to NASCAR races. [http: //jetjit.com/dale_earnhardt_jr.htm] However, he has been recently seen in a Chevrolet commercial singing the 1974 song by George Jones and Tammy Wynette, entitled "(We're Not) The Jet Set". The lyrics refer to a couple as being "the old Chevrolet set," as opposed to leading a glamorous, jet-setting lifestyle.

Ironic, as after he drives his Chevy he hops into his jet to go home. Walkerson

Please tell me what you think is wrong with that contribution before you delete it again caster23 and lets see what others have to say as well. Walkerson

Fist of all, the cleanup i did was to the entire article. The controversy that you seem to want to repeatedly add was in a random place the first time i deleted it (in my cleanup edit). You then added it again under its own section. It is not important to this article at all, so I removed it once again. --Caster23 00:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Funny, the first two Learjet sentences have been up on the main article for a while, but as soon as I mention that he is singing a song about not being part of the jet set (while driving a Chevy which he drives for a living) in a television commercial it is immediately deleted. Walkerson

Those sentences were spam. I have deleted many links to that website that is referenced above. Please understand that i did not delete just what you added. I have been working on cleaning up this article. Caster23 01:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Does anyone believe that this is important enough to be in this article? It has its own section yet I believe it's not at all notable. At the risk of getting into a revert war with Walkerson I thought I would ask here and let someone else deal with this user (who thinks that it is relevant to Jr.'s career). Caster23 16:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it is notable. Dionyseus 22:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC) During one of his races his father Dale Earnhardt Sr. was killed right in front of him.

Trivia Section -> Accomplishments

After seeing the deletion of the trivia section (not that I'm objecting, I understand and support the policy against), I was just wondering if other editors also thought that some of that information might be worth keeping in a "Notable Accomplishments"-type section? Looking over the removed material, if people were in favor, I'd propose some or all of the following to be listed:

• First Rookie to win "The Winston" All-Star Event
• First driver since Bill Elliott at Michigan 1985-6 to win four straight races on one superspeedway, doing so at Talladega October 2001 through April 2003
• Joins the Allisons (Bobby and Davey Allison) and the Pettys (Lee and Richard Petty) as the third father and son combination to win the Daytona 500
• Only driver in NASCAR NEXTEL Cup history to pull off a Bristol Sweep in one weekend (won both busch and cup race). [August 2004]

Just a thought, would appreciate other opinions. --Umrguy42 (talk) 01:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to take so long to respond, but yes, I think that each of these is a notable accomplishment, and should be integrated into the text of the article. In fact, thinking about the father/son combination, there is almost too *little* mention of the fact that Jr and Sr are both quality race car drivers. Perhaps this is an attempt on the part of the editors, and the media, to let Jr. stand on his own, but this may be worth mentioning more clearly. Edhubbard (talk) 14:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Infobox pic replacement

The new picture at the top is a much clearer and more current pic---used because it is a work of the US Army...and thus public domain as a work of the United States Federal Government. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 14:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Great pic. Would cropping to focus more on his torso and head violate the copyright? Would it be desirable to focus more clearly on his face? Edhubbard (talk) 14:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

This photo, however, would probably look best unedited. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 00:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hendrick Motorsports box

Hey, is anybody else noticing that the HendrickMotorsports box at the bottom of the page seems to be seriously to the right-of-center of the page layout? I've checked this in IE7 *and* Firefox 2.0.0.12, and it looks the same in both. I don't know what's causing it, and it doesn't seem to show up in say, Casey Mears or Jimmie Johnson or on Hendrick Motorsports itself, but it does here on Dale Jr. and on Jeff Gordon. Can somebody better at wiki-markup take a look, and see if they can spot what's going on? --Umrguy42 (talk) 21:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Gutless!!!

Forum-y post

I have been a unwavering fan for many many years, but I'm not anymore. Your devotion and drive to be the best race car driver on the track is gone, what ever be the reason to much going on off the track or you and the crew chief not on the same page what ever....You are in charge of that.You seem happy just to be out there and that's fine but we as fans don't hafta support you, and I'm not anymore.....You said it yourself when you went on with Hendrick no more excuses its time to put up or shut up well I guess you have answered that one. You no I just wonder where your drive went? you no like when it gets down to 50laps to go even if you are at the front the other drivers get serious you get passed even by cars that have been in wrecks. And trust me I no a little about racing, I have drove for over 30yrs go-karts legends cars and stock cars and Asa cars I even beat your favorite driver Kyle Bush at his on track in a legends car, so I no what I am seeing with you and I don't like it.... Its up to you to fix it if you can or just keep letting your competition with lessor cars beat you, and lose your fan base that made you IN THE FIRST PLACE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.129.248.167 (talk) 03:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

umrguy42 21:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

2009 section

this section seems to have POV issues. "It was evident that Vickers was to blame for this" was it? and if JR didn't have bad luck (and/or "bad" cars) he would have no luck and no cars at all. I'm not a racing fan, just looking at the article due to recent changes in his team, so i don't think i'm competent to make any changes, except the most minor ones, i suppose i could have banners and "citations needed" tagz placed about, but i'd rather appeal to his, and racing's, fans to see if they can tackle and improve this paragraph.

Childhoodtrauma (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Nah, feel free to work on any blatant POV stuff. (Personally, I tend to do minor cleanups as necessary, and then a more thorough re-write at the end of the season, when the major highlights/incidents, and the general trend(s), can be described, instead of race by race recaps.) Don't worry too much about banners and tags (there's already a REFIMPROVE for the whole article needed still), but feel free on the language... umrguy42 19:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

now we got a few people warring about whose fault the crash was. I know that was one of the main pov issues i had to start with. If you are a "dale's fault" or "Vicker's Fault" editor, until you can source it (and "fault" is such a pov issue on a crash it can not be sourced to satisfaction) all that is going to happen is dale jr is going to get 100 undo's. Can we/ should we lock or semi lock this page? ah one of the things i love about wiki, ain't watched a race in two years but now I'm stuck with looking into dale jr's page every other day! Childhoodtrauma (talk) 18:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Nah, just revert on sight. It's not a high enough level for them to even think about semi-protecting the page. Them's the breaks, I guess. Just watch out for 3RR, and hope they get bored soon... umrguy42 23:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

page protection please?

since the IP vandal is apparently only interested in messing with this one article, other than user talk pages, how much longer do we need to until it gets semi-protected? the last several dozen edits are us undoing, and them re-doing, the same vandalism edit... SXT103 (talk • contribs) 03:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Kerry Earnhardt

You have his step brother Kerry Earnhardt listed as a "former driver" but yet he has been making a few NASCAR Nationwide series starts each year, also the only year he did not run a race in the Nationwide series he ran the truck series. I have tryed to change it to list Kerry as a "part time Nationwide series driver" in the opening paragraph but it keeps getting changed back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.188.188.110 (talk) 17:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC) If you go look at the NASCAR standing and list or current drivers you will find Kerry Earnhardt listed. that would make either a current driver or a part time driver but not a former driver.

2010 Season

On Dale Jr's 2010 season, you give extensive detail of the first half of his season, where he ran relatively well, but you did not cover the second half of the season, where he ran poorly, with the exception of 4th at New Hampshire, 7th at Martinsville, and a great run at Talladegga until a mid-race crash. You also mention how Jr falls out of the top 12, but do not mention that he briefly returned to the top 12 after a string of good runs in Mid-June through early July. Changes are needed. (Ryantheincredible (talk) 04:57, 13 December 2010 (UTC))

Article Update Needed

An article update is needed for Dale Jr. to include his long-awaited victory at Michigan last sunday. --Jayemd (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The article already includes it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:36, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

I was asking just in case --Jayemd (talk) 17:59, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Next time, check first, or add it yourself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:32, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 30 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move after over two weeks and a relisting. Cúchullain ^t/c 17:32, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

---

• Dale Earnhardt, Jr. → Dale Earnhardt Jr.
• Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. → Ricky Stenhouse Jr.
• Bobby Hamilton, Jr. → Bobby Hamilton Jr.
• Bobby Hillin, Jr. → Bobby Hillin Jr.
• Sam Hornish, Jr. → Sam Hornish Jr.
• Michel Jourdain, Jr. → Michel Jourdain Jr.
• Scott Lagasse, Jr. → Scott Lagasse Jr.
• Ashton Lewis, Jr. → Ashton Lewis Jr.
• Hank Parker, Jr. → Hank Parker Jr.
• Nelson Piquet, Jr. → Nelson Piquet Jr.
• James Stewart, Jr. → James Stewart Jr.
• Don Thomson, Jr. → Don Thomson Jr.
• Martin Truex, Jr. → Martin Truex Jr.
• Al Unser, Jr. → Al Unser Jr.
• Darrell Wallace, Jr. → Darrell Wallace Jr.

– American race drivers seldom use the comma before Jr. or Sr., as their official web sites and most fan and news sites confirm. I had fixed this once before, when WP:JR said that our style was to avoid commas except for individuals who prefer to use them, but in the great Jr. comma backlash of June, someone asked to have them all moved back to having commas, which seems odd. We should fix this. I realize that racing-reference.info's style is to include the comma, but most other sites do not. If there are exceptions in this list to what I'm claiming, let's find them and discuss; I checked most (which is hard, given the number of dead external and ref links in the articles). And maybe I missed some; please say if you find more. Dicklyon (talk) 03:10, 30 December 2015 (UTC)--Relisted. Cúchullain ^t/c 18:49, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support as nom. And I missed Johnny Benson, Jr., which is where I had started to work on this and got some pushback; see preliminary discussion at Talk:Johnny Benson, Jr.. Dicklyon (talk) 03:17, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Others I missed include Kenny Irwin, Jr., Glenn Allen, Jr., Danny O'Quinn, Jr., Wally Dallenbach, Jr., and even Joe Jackson, Sr. (the last being not an American racer, but an Austrian clown and one-time bike racer who also appears in print mostly without comma). Dicklyon (talk) 04:17, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom. NASCAR's website and their official websites do not use the comma. – Nascar1996 ^{(talk • cont)} 03:27, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - What about treating each article independently based on how reliable sources most commonly refer to each one? --В²C ☎ 05:20, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

If you're saying you think that some might be most often treated with the comma, please point out at least one such. Otherwise, what are we talking about? Dicklyon (talk) 06:04, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, I have no idea. I'm just suggesting we look at reliable source usage for each one independently. If it turns out no comma is the "winner" for each, so be it. --В²C ☎ 18:21, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming that you have no idea. I have an idea, and I think it's unlikely that a better set of ideas can be arrived at by splitting up the discussion on to 15 pages. I'm OK with no move if that what racing editors prefer, but not OK creating a major disruption spread over 15 articles. Dicklyon (talk) 18:55, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. Rather than random fan websites, we should look at actual reliable sources. Looking just at Dale Earnhardt, a Google Books search shows a pretty even split between comma and no comma. I assume the same is true for the others, because there is a pretty even split for most Jrs and Srs out there. This is not enough of a basis to move from the status quo, at least at first glance. If the nom (or anyone) would make their argument from reliable sources, that would be helpful. Dohn joe (talk) 15:25, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I believe you're not counting well. If you add up the books on the first 5 pages of hits, it's running 3:1 in favor of no comma. Not "pretty even split". Dicklyon (talk) 18:48, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
  • His official website dalejr.com doesn't use the comma; nor does his Twitter account; but his Facebook does. Dicklyon (talk) 18:52, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

• Neutral - Historically, this article has been "Dale Earnhardt, Jr." and there have been previous move discussions (and actual moves) that have brought us to where we are today. That said, I did a search on Dale Junior-related business records and "Dale Earnhardt Jr" is listed as the official business contact for several of his businesses (no commas or periods). What we don't want is a "move war", so let's make sure there is an overwhelming consensus for a move before we consider actually doing it. Bear in mind that with the existence of redirects, this is really not a big deal or even necessary -- Scjessey (talk) 20:01, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Historically, it spent its first 5 years without a comma in the article, until it was accidentally flipped in this clumsy fix to vandalism. Dicklyon (talk) 21:51, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
    • I'm confused. I've been editing this article for years, and it has (for a long time) had the comma. It's almost as if a great chunk of the logs, talk history and article history have gone missing. Bizarre. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:30, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. While recent changes to manuals of style suggest not using the comma, Wikipedia allows either, and the general consensus when it comes to stylistic matters is "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" (cf. WP:RETAIN, WP:NOTBROKEN, etc. for similar situations). Prevalance in the sources is not something particuarly workable here, either - as many sources use both, on different pages (checking Johnny Benson, Jr., for instance, has NASCAR.com's store page using the comma'd version (as the only hit on a site-search), while Jayski's has both with what appears to be a slightly-more-common occurance of the comma'd. Basically this boils down to "does this affect any technical issues" (no) and "does it improve the experience for the Wikipedia user" (I'd say probably not). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:41, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support—It's clearly the subjects' preferred formatting, and now we have the flexibility to go with that. Bushranger, this "ain't broke don't fix" thing is a mantra of those who resist any change. As soon as I read the phrase, something cynical in me is triggered. Tony (talk) 02:28, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
  • And it became "broken" in June, when someone felt that the comma really needed to be there; I wasn't here to object at the time. Dicklyon (talk) 03:19, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support: The reason many people may not use the comma is that it may not actually be part of their name on birth certificates or SS cards. I am the II with no comma, my son is the III with no comma (on the birth certificates), AND --since my father passed away I am not legally obligated to use II which is not even listed on my SS card. My son's SS card does not have a comma.

Name of choice: If an article is a BLP then it is very clear that we refer to them by what name they use that would include punctuation or the lack thereof. Anyone not believing that can look up Bruce Jenner. I can't imagine that an official website or business names would not be proof. Surely nobody will argue that the person the web site is about (official) isn't using the name of choice? NASCAR drivers might have issues with "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" as not changing a tire (that wasn't flat or broke) has lost races. Otr500 (talk) 14:27, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree. We had a perfectly good and widely recommended modern style guideline to just skip the commas, but changed to say either is OK. Given that either is OK, going with common usage or preference in a field (such as wrestling, or racing) seems like a good idea. There is no good way to find the preference of the subject in general, and even their official sites often disagree (as with Earnhardt's Facebook and Twitter pages). So we pick a style. I'd rather see consistency within racing, consistent with most outside sources, than try to make every article depend on the unknowable. I had fixed it to be consistently without comma in racing about 8 months ago, when the guidelines recommended that, but someone undid all that in the great comma backlash while I was away. Now, let's decide which way is better and be done with it. Dicklyon (talk) 17:51, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Dicklyon on this point - the comma is a stylistic point, not a point of identity. It should be one way or the other for all racing drivers (well, throughout Wikipedia ideally, but good luck with that); to have some drivers with pages with the comma, and some without, would make people point and chuckle about 'good old reliable Wikipedia, can't even decide how to format people's names, ha ha!'. Let's not feed the nabobs. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:00, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:RETAIN. There is no good reason to go with or without a comma. There is no good reason to change between with and without a comma. Consistency in this case is not important. If we randomly changed about half to lose the comma and left the others with the comma, it wouldn't matter. If we left them all with commas, it wouldn't matter. If we change them all to not have commas, it wouldn't matter. No matter what we do or don't do with respect to these commas, it won't matter by any reasonable measure. As far as linking goes - that if we aren't consistent you have to look to see whether there is a comma or not in the title to know how to link - that's good!!! - you should always double-check what the title is before linking anyway. So random inconsistency on this point encourages good editor practice (users are unaffected either way because of redirects), though even that is not good enough reason to change any of these. There simply is no good reason to do anything here. And WP:RETAIN is an excellent reason to do nothing. --В²C ☎ 21:20, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I seem to recall that you agreed with me on something once – so long ago, who can be sure? Anyway, I think it would have been great to retain the version of last April that was in agreement with both the MOS and common usage at the time. But we didn't. I'm willing to do the work to fix it again. Dicklyon (talk) 03:11, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
    • I didn't notice the proposal was yours or even what your position was. As you know, my primary concern with respect to WP titles is title stability. I want stable titles. Fewer RMs. Now I'm the first to admit that the road to title stability ironically includes title changes (to get to more stable/consistent titles), but I just think the stable state of any "Jr." title with respect to whether it has a comma is whatever it is. I mean, it's one thing if reliable sources clearly prefer one form or another. But here we have no such clear guidance - so the clearest guidance, I think, is: leave it alone. Don't care. Oppose any RM on these grounds regardless of whether it's adding or removing the comma. Whichever it is, it's just as good as the other. Don't support changing it, period. --В²C ☎ 18:38, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Books are about 60% without comma for Earnhardt, and even more so for other drivers. See [3]. Dicklyon (talk) 18:43, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
        • It just seems very similar to an ENGVAR issue. If 60% of sources use an American spelling but the article is at the British spelling, we don't change it, because it doesn't matter. I'd say comma or no comma matters even less. Clearly both forms are acceptable. And, for better or worse, we tend to not show preference to one form or another in such cases. Changing any or all of these would be showing preference for whatever style we're switching to. Let's not do that. --В²C ☎ 20:24, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose – I, like User:Born2cycle above, believe that this move would create inconsistency across the whole website; it is best to leave it as it has been established. United States Man (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
  • If we wanted consistency within project and with the vast majority of sources (much more than 60% for most drivers), we would not have allowed the June 20 moves that put the commas in. Dicklyon (talk) 01:06, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
    • You don't seem to have understood what I just said. Look across Wikipedia. Just about all people with Jr. in their name have a comma before it. Changing just a handful of these and not every one across the website would be one of the dumbest things ever done on here. I am surprised that experienced editors such as yourself are pushing this. And, with the sourcing, whether or not there is a comma in online references to these drivers is trivial at best in my opinion. United States Man (talk) 05:26, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Continuing, I do not like the fact that most Jr./Sr. articles include the comma, but there are also a bunch that don't. It really makes no sense, and I would support a change to MOS:JR to clearly define which one of these is more acceptable instead of saying both are okay. I am not a fan of inconsistency in anything, and this is something that I think should be looked at by the Wikipedia community. United States Man (talk) 05:36, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

I would not be against this if it was for all the articles across the site, but, for just this handful, what's the point? United States Man (talk) 05:36, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, for a long time WP:JR said it was preferred to not use the comma and many did not. Then in a great backlash last June, someone moved a whole bunch of articles to use the comma, while WP:JR was changed to say that either way is OK. So inconsistency is now officially OK. But in racing, it's pretty much not done -- though not as uniformly as in wrestling. Dicklyon (talk) 05:43, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I understand, but I still respectfully oppose. United States Man (talk) 05:46, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support: I think we should get rid of these commas everywhere. They only complicate matters, for instance in "Al Unser, Jr. did [this or that]", or "Al, Jr. did ...". The comma seems to indicate that a dependent clause, or something similar, maybe something that is set off by commas (similar to this), is to be expected, but it never materializes. We're then left with two sentence fragments, separated by the comma, namely:

1) "Al"

2) "Jr. did ..."

There's no dependent clause, and it just makes no sense. Additionally, the comma is not reflected in speech (as is the case with a dependent clause); you speak the name just as if it were Al Unser-Junior. And if you ask me, the period/full stop can be dropped too. HandsomeFella (talk) 16:57, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Now that is a truly bizarre reason for a page move. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:52, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Care to elaborate? HandsomeFella (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

I mean, you skipped the comma yourself in your post above: "I did a search on Dale Junior-related business records ... ".

Wouldn't it look crazy with "I did a search on Dale, Junior-related business records ...?

There would be two sentence fragments:

1) "I did a search on Dale"

2) "Junior-related business records ... "

See what I mean? HandsomeFella (talk) 22:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

The problem with this argument is that in the "first name+suffix" combination the comma is not used. "Al Junior" or "Dale Jr." is the correct formatting in that case. It's when the full name is used, that the comma is used. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:58, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Then all the more reason to remove the comma in combination with first name + last name. What purpose does it serve? "I did a search on Dale Earnhardt, Junior-related business records ... " doesn't make any more sense than the first-name-only example (using the comma) above. HandsomeFella (talk) 06:56, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually, it does, and it did for a very, very long time before it was recently decided by the people who sit around and create Manuals of Style that it's better to be lazy than to use proper grammar. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:03, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Let's discuss a little around the "Junior" part. It obviously serves as a disambiguator, to distinguish him from his father. Similar disambiguations are mentioned in WP:Copyedit#Punctuation, which calls for a closing comma. It would mean that a sentence could look this: "Dale Earnhardt, Jr, won the race". Now, I think that's a little over the top, so I prefer no commas at all, i.e.: "Dale Earnhardt Jr won the race". HandsomeFella (talk) 11:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose per Born2Cycle. In particular, if we're not going to review the prominence of the comma in reliable sources for all of these individuals, then there is no rationale at all for this broad stroke, and moving pages for the sake of moving pages is silly. The guideline only recommends that the individual pages be internally consistent, and if project-wide consistency is preferred then that's great too, but you already have it. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:18, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm switching my !vote from neutral to oppose. Born2Cycle makes a compelling case for just leaving it alone because it just isn't necessary. Some people have made the case that the comma can make for comma-laden sentences, but there's no reason why the body of the article needs to use the same form as the title. In fact, when referring to the subject within the article we should just be using "Earnhardt" anyway (without commas, Juniors or Jrs). -- Scjessey (talk) 15:04, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Like people's initials (full stops or no full stops, spaces or no spaces), this is purely a matter of house style, and our house style is to use the comma. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:04, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Quite the contrary. Our house style, expressed at WP:JR was, for many years, to avoid the comma. It was recently changed to say that either is OK, and then these pages all had unneeded commas added. Dicklyon (talk) 18:15, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
• Pretty big meh from me. The comments about the page history did interest me though. As far as I can tell, this article was at the ", Jr." title from creation until Feb 2015 when a move was requested at WP:RM/TR to the no comma title [4]. The same admin who made the move then reverted himself in June. Jenks24 (talk) 12:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
  • That's what I thought had happened. Pretty weird. I also notice it was Dicklyon who requested the change last time as well. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:53, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
    • I think it's hard to tell from the history what the original title was, but there was no comma in the article text for for its first five years after creation, as I pointed out above. Dicklyon (talk) 15:59, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Not really. The article was created as Dale Earnhardt, Jr. and was only changed after you requested a move many years later. And usually, the full name "Dale Earnhardt, Jr." would only be used in the introductory paragraph of an article (in bold) and (if there is one) an infobox. The rest of the time, it should be just "Earnhardt". -- Scjessey (talk) 16:50, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

The history is irrelevant. Present arguments to the point instead. HandsomeFella (talk) 17:02, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I did already. I was just responding to another comment and correcting a misconception. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:55, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually, apart from your initial position (where you found that most sources don't have the comma), most of your posts have commented on the history. You later changed your !vote based on WP:RETAIN, if I understood things correctly. And while I elaborated on my position, you only dismissed it as "bizarre", and haven't bothered to explain what you mean. You're welcome to do that. HandsomeFella (talk) 06:44, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I just think it is bizarre you would think the use of the comma would confuse people into misreading sentences that include it. Anyway, dismissing the history of the article as "irrelevant" is unhelpful to this discussion because it reinforces B2C's point. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:51, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

What is reinforcing B2C's point, dismissing the article history, or the article history it self? Anyhow, comma-laden sentences (as you put it), are harder to read, no matter how you look at it, grammatically or otherwise. While reading, we're (often unconciously) looking ahead for the next comma (or punctuation) in order to "decipher", or interpret, the sentence. Missing or unpaired commas, or poor punctuation in general, make us re-read senctences in order to understand the correct meaning of them. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support, since most of the sources don't use the comma. When in doubt, do what the subject prefers (per their official website), otherwise default to what the majority of the RS are doing. We should really just standardize across the board against the redundant comma. It serves no purpose and just makes the text harder to read. Until then, at least do no insert one unless a) the subject insists on it in public, and/or b) RS about the subject (and not limited to one organization like NASCAR or whatever) add the comma with near-perfect consistency. 08:14, 10 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SMcCandlish (talk • contribs)
• Support'—per the official driver websites that omit the comma. SMcCandlish above me has the right idea that as our language has moved forward, we should drop the unneeded punctuation. Imzadi 1979 → 07:07, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support - We should drop the commas since the drivers don't use them. Dough4872 00:54, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 17 April 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. The consensus is that the new titles would be a better fit for WP:JR, per the fact that we now prefer omitting commas, and there's no special reason for an exception to apply here.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:05, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

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• Dale Earnhardt, Jr. → Dale Earnhardt Jr.
• Ron Hornaday, Sr. → Ron Hornaday Sr.
• Ron Hornaday, Jr. → Ron Hornaday Jr.
• Bobby Hamilton, Jr. → Bobby Hamilton Jr.

– Now that WP:JR has been changed to once-again affirm Wikipedia's preference for styling "Jr." without the comma before, and in light of the previous RM discussion in which such a move had majority support even when the MOS was neutral, and in light of the fact that the previous move to include the comma came when both versions were acceptable per the MOS, and given that the previous move to remove the comma was done back when the MOS had recommended comma-free for many years, and in light of the fact the most racing orgs and news coverage don't use the comma either, let's go ahead and fix this now. Easy ones have been fixed already. See recent precedents are related discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies#Update on implementation progress and above there. Dicklyon (talk) 17:48, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Example of the effect of this change: lead sentence will change

from

Ralph Dale Earnhardt, Jr., (born October 10, 1974), known professionally as Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Dale, Jr., or just Junior, is ...

to

Ralph Dale Earnhardt Jr. (born October 10, 1974), known professionally as Dale Earnhardt Jr., Dale Jr., or just Junior, is ...

Dicklyon (talk) 21:15, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support as nom; please review the previous RM discussion and the new WP:JR if you need more context. Dicklyon (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Did WP:JR seriously get changed again? I swear that thing gets changed more often than the Chase format. Zappa24Mati 18:28, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it got changed in 2009, 2015, and 2016. It spent one whole year, almost, with no preference, then this RFC brought it back. Dicklyon (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support per WP:JR. RGloucester — ☎ 17:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:MOS and WP:IFITAIN'TBROKE. Dohn joe (talk) 17:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Hmm, so please explain to us, Dohn joe why you went on a huge spree [5] of renaming 300+ articles to have commas in front of "Jr.", back when MOS:JR said either option was equally acceptable (i.e., should not have been changed). Then see WP:KETTLE. Most of the current RMs to remove these commas are belated requests to revert undiscussed moves to insert them by you, and could in fact be speeded at the WP:RM section for doing so. You don't have a leg to stand on here. RM after RM you keep saying "oppose per MOS" when MOS clearly says to prefer no comma here, absent very specific conditions which are not met in any of these cases. This is starting to get disruptive, Dj. It's a WP:IDHT, WP:POINT, and WP:BATTLEGROUND pattern. It needs to stop.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:19, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

    Again - if you look at the page histories, those were all undiscussed moves made by Dicklyon (or at his behest) that I undid (or had undone at my behest) per WP:BRD and WP:MOS. Please get your facts right. And if you could explain exactly how commenting in open RMs is "disruptive," I'd appreciate it. Dohn joe (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

    The point is that I removed the commas when the MOS said that no-comma was preferred (as it had said for 2009–2014 and into 2015). You put them back after it was changed to say no preference. Your actions there were not consistent with your invocation of "if it ain't broke" here. Now that the MOS again says prefer no comma, they are broken again, due to your actions, so please just let us fix them to the preferred form. Dicklyon (talk) 20:27, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
    

(edit conflict) Dj, commenting in RMs is not disruptive. Taking POINT/REICHSTAD actions, like going RM to RM citing guidelines that say the exact opposite of what you're supposedly citing them for, to confuse other commenters and perhaps the closer, is disruptive. This is interesting, too: [6]. You knew full well even then that moving these articles around, back when there wasn't any comma or no-comma preference, should not have been done without good reason, and tried to use back-channel chat with an RM admin to get RMs to go your way. Fingerpointing at DickLyon will not avail you. You cannot simultaneously argue that either comma or no-comma is perfectly permissible thus no moves should happen (because under MOS:JR at the time it was "not broke" either way), then go on a hundreds-of-articles march to move them all to commas, with what you hope is the backing of a cultivated "pet" admin. If it was supposedly wrong for DL to move any of them before, it was equally wrong for you to move them again (under the older MOS:JR rules). WP:KETTLE and all that. Your entire position is akin to crying "I kicked the dog on the right side because DL kicked it on the left side, and DL should be punished because kicking the dog is bad." I know Anthony Appleyard is too smart to have fallen for such overtures. At this point, I care much more about shutting down WP:GAMING misuse of RM as a battlegrounding platform and WP:LAWYER prevarication about what the guidelines actually say (which has also been happening with some other editors movewarring about song title capitalization trivia), than I care about these commas. RM exists for editors to weigh the sources and policies/guidelines and make up their own minds, not to be campaigned incessantly and misleadingly by someone trying desperately to stonewall the application of an RfC and guideline shift that didn't go their preferred way, just so they can have the style they were taught was "correct" in junior high school. It's anti-consensus filibustering for off-WP prescriptive grammarian language activism. At any rate the shift in MoS wording and current RS usage is sufficient justification for the moves today, as demonstrated by the snowballing support for no-comma style in all of them. The game is over, and running up and down the court waving your arms won't make the clock reset.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  17:03, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Again - check facts (and maybe WP:AGF) before casting aspersions. I went to the two admins who had done the Dicklyon-requested moves. They both waited until the RfC concluded - and then they both reverted all the requested titles to the previous status quo per my request. It's all in the archives. Dohn joe (talk) 17:48, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

The fact is that the comma removals were done when the guidelines recommended that; and that your reversal was done when the guideline said both were acceptable. This completely flies in the face of your current arguments. Makes no sense. Dicklyon (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:JR. We've had enough of these WP:SNOWBALLing in favor of comma removal, that this kind of move should be considered uncontroversial at this point. One "never give up, never surrender" opponent whose arguments are not cogent and who is just defending his own undiscussed anti-MOS moves from about a year ago is not an actual controversy, it's just WP:STONEWALLing, bordering on a WP:REICHSTAG antics.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:19, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

  Look - just because you disagree with my position doesn't mean it's "not cogent." It means we disagree. Dohn joe (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

It's non-cogent because the guidelines say the opposite what you claim they do. Its lack of cogency has nothing to do with our conflicting opinion about which style is better. That's not even under discussion here; that was under discussion in the RfC. The RM is about the current guideline and whether this article qualifies as one of the exceptions it outlines, and whether the sources bear that out (it doesn't, because they don't).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  17:03, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Here's the argument again in a nutshell. WP:JR says prefer no comma. WP:MOS says do not move/edit between two acceptable styles. The comma is an acceptable style. Thus, MOS says don't move/edit these articles. You think "acceptable" is limited to the WP:JR-stated preference. I say it is more broadly defined. That's a cogent argument, with which you happen to disagree. Dohn joe (talk) 17:48, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Your claim that the comma style in "acceptable" in the sense that that passage means has been shot down at every releant RM discussion since the RFC that caused us to once again put a clear preference in the guideline. Dicklyon (talk) 20:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Main image

Hi, @Bringingthewood: I have read your edit summary on your edit at the linked article. Rather than continue to use edit summaries to carry a conversation (which people could potentially see as disruptive), I figured I would reply here instead. Human hair often changes colour over the course of a year. Since the other photo of Dale was taken at Daytona during speedweeks in February, it's a reasonable assumption to make that this is the case with his hair and therefore in my opinion it's not a great way to determine if an image is "current" or not.

I also don't think the image needs to be "current" considering we are writing an encyclopedia on the internet which we hope will be around for a long while, but that's a conversation for another day as these images are only 3 years apart.

And I admit to being unconcerned about Dale Sr. here. But I would strongly recommend seeking consensus on the talk page of that article if you wish to change that image. Any consensus reached here does not apply to that article as every article stands on its own merit and the images available for Sr. will be fewer than for Jr. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  04:49, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, @GhostOfDanGurney: I hear you. Honestly, I figured you would give a one line answer and I'd leave it alone. Never thought about Jr's talk page. Btw, there would have been no animosity directed towards you in an edit summary, that I swear to. Okay, I get the hair deal. Besides, he does seem to change hair color more often than not anyway. I was just going with the 2023, instead of the 2020, looking like he's sitting a classroom.

Agree with you there also. Ha, I knew you would have a good response, that's why I asked you to revert after reading. No animosity.

Not at all, regarding Sr. I was going with maybe the sunglasses was a no-no. But I like the photo. Dale Sr. is ... well, Dale Sr.

Well, looks like our work here is basically done. No interference from me regarding any photo. I'm glad you did continue this without that one line I was waiting for, lol. My revert came over quickly because I just thanked TaurusEmerald for that photo. I never could stand that classroom look. But I get all that you're pointing out to me. Much appreciated. Bringingthewood (talk) 05:13, 6 September 2023 (UTC)