Talk:Crupper

Crupper and breeching

The following in-line comment was added by User:Richard New Forest in this edit: "How does breeching replace a crupper on riding horses", with the edit summary reading: "Driving horses always have a crupper, and when they have breeching they have both – breeching is not a replacement."

Ensuing discussion copied from User talk:Richard New Forest:

Hi. Re crupper vs breeching on riding horses, see for example this. I will try to find an image that can be used on Wikipedia. BTW, are you absolutely sure that breeching on driving horses always includes a crupper? I'm not. --Una Smith (talk) 14:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see the point with riding, at least Western-style. I wonder if that is (or was originally) largely to hold the saddle when anchoring roped cattle? A crupper (or tail) would not be nearly strong enough for this.

For driving, the breeching and crupper really have different purposes. The crupper in most harness does no more than hold the harness saddle in place. In very light harness with a very light vehicle a crupper alone is also enough to allow the horse to slow the vehicle – the horse pulls back with the saddle, with the braking forces ending up at the crupper. However, in a vehicle with any significant weight the horse's tail is not enough for stopping and so breeching is needed. Harness breeching attaches to the vehicle (not to the saddle or girth) and gives the horse something solid to sit back into when slowing.

Of course, leader harness and plough harness don't need breeching, as these do not do any slowing. They do not absolutely always have a saddle either, and then they would have no crupper – so I was not quite right, it is possible to have harness without a crupper. However breeching would not normally be used without a crupper, as a horse that slows a vehicle will normally be a wheeler, and a saddle (with crupper) is needed to attach it to the shafts or pole. There is one minor exception – for teams used behind a very heavy vehicle to hold it on a steep downhill. These would have had breeching but would not have needed a saddle, so might not have had a crupper. Richard New Forest (talk) 14:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Western saddles are stabilized by a back cinch and/or a breastcollar. Cruppers really aren't much used by Western riders, other than - sometimes- with pack saddles, but breeching is more common. Breeching is not used on riding saddles by anyone normal-- that photo is just plain weird, I can only figure that they must be trying to use pack horse breeching over a western saddle so the saddle doubles as a pack saddle (that is the darnedest thing I have seen, in fact. NO ONE would ride with that rig!!!) In the west, cruppers were more a thing used by the military with the McClellan saddle and by working English riders. A few western saddles are starting to sport an attachment point for them, mostly because some cross-over English riders are starting to ask for them particularly for some of the new designs in trail saddles. A crupper is also used on a surcingle when it is being used as a bitting rig (or bitting harness). Richard is the driving expert, I'd go with what he has to say. Certainly the fine harness rigs all use a crupper, I cannot speak for other forms. My two bits from out here where hunting season is just on the horizon... Montanabw^(talk) 19:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cruppers are used fairly often by riders, both Western and English, in some parts. Cruppers are common at endurance races and competitive trail rides in hilly or mountainous areas; rider manuals for both sports mention them. Although I have photographed breeching on a saddle (on a mule), thinking back I have never seen a crupper on a pack horse or mule. Nor is there any crupper on a pack animal in the "how to pack with horses" books I checked. --Una Smith (talk) 04:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree that I have mostly seen breeching on pack strings, and not cruppers. However, they do get mentioned as equipment that is doubled up with breeching (as in this example), I personally have vague memories of seeing some pack horses rigged this way, though I would agree that breeching alone is more common out here in the Rockies. One might want to ask Cgoodwin about use of breeching or cruppers in Au on packhorses, as s/he is our Aussie expert -- I found this Au site that discusses cruppers on pack saddles. As for riding, indeed cruppers are primarily popular amongst various trail riders, especially the CTR/endurance crowd. That and, occasionally, on some really roly-poly ponies. You do not see them in the show ring. It used to be that you would see people who liked to ride on trails using those old McClellan army saddles use a crupper, as many military saddle models were specifically designed to use them, but the thing of attaching them to western trail saddles is not really all that common, though you see them more than you used to. Montanabw^(talk) 04:16, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, I have never seen a crupper without breeching on a pack horse. --Una Smith (talk) 00:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. But I have no idea what sort of standards are used for packing elsewhere in the world. Montanabw^(talk) 05:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No crupper on roping horses

The following in-line comment was added by Montanabw|Montanabw in this edit: not sure why the topic of roping horse saddles even came up here. Saddles sliding forward on rope horses is not an issue, saddles flipping up in the back is, the rope pulls down more than forward.

The rope may pull down when an animal is roped by its feet, but other cases exist. Eg, pull may be lateral (or up) when a large animal is roped by the head. --Una Smith (talk) 01:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The pull is somewhat lateral in steer roping for the horse that is the "header," but a crupper would play no role there anyway. I cannot imagine a situation where the rope is pulled UP, unless someone is roping giraffes or elephants! LOL! I basically just think the whole section on roping saddles should be cut from this article entirely because it comes under the heading of "all the times where cruppers are not used." Any objection if we just chop those sentences altogether? Montanabw^(talk) 03:03, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about roping horses? Anyway, the concern is with any jerk on the saddle that pulls the crupper forward. Give it a little time, okay? --Una Smith (talk) 03:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll wait on editing until you pull the tag and finish your work (looks like it's an improvement overall, certainly in organization). I agree that a crupper could cause damage if improperly used. My point is only that no one would even think to put a crupper on a roping horse anyway, that's all I'm saying. But if you must say it, then we need to explain why-- it isn't because of the fear of damage to the tail (though I suppose that could occur if some idiot tried it), it's because it isn't needed to counter the kind of pressure put on a roping saddle anyway. Montanabw^(talk) 04:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph about no cruppers on roping horses needs to be restored. It leads from the paragraph re cruppers were customary on cavalry horses and still are used on horses used to work cattle with lances. Like cavalry and lance horses, roping horses (and polo ponies) also do quick stops and turns, yet cruppers are not used on them. --Una Smith (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it really doesn't. It's undue weight to mention one of the many ways cruppers aren't used. Saddles are more often used without cruppers than with them, if we wanted to mention every case of when they aren't used, it would never end...I mean for quick stops and turns on horses that never have cruppers on their saddles, we can include reining horses, cutting horses, show jumpers, polo ponies, cross-country eventers and the list goes on and on...the crupper has no significant effect on this, anyway, it mostly keeps the saddle from sliding forward on a horse with low withers and narrow shouders. Why the Buttero use them, I have no clue, I can't say I've ever managed a cow with a lance, so why a crupper helps that, or if it's just a holdover tradition linked to some other reason (like going downhill a lot?) I couldn't answer. The point is that cruppers are used on harnesses for absolutely practical reasons. But on saddles, the only real need for them, including when trail riding, is when a saddle doesn't properly fit the horse or if the horse has certain types of very poor conformation, particularly mutton withers or a flat, roach back. Even the mule saddle articles argue that a properly fitted mule saddle that accounts for a mule's flatter back won't need a crupper. Some military saddles needed cruppers because armies went up and down hills in saddles that were not custom-fitted for individual horses. Montanabw^(talk) 05:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A veterinary medicine article that I am waiting on (PMID 2026544) describes a fracture of the tailhead in a horse. --Una Smith (talk) 03:18, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, a bitting rig is NOT used for driving, at least not in the sense of hitching up a cart. it is usually used on the longe line, and sometimes, with side reins removed, for ground driving, but is not used for hitching -- no breastcollar. The crupper just keeps the side reins and overcheck from pulling the surcingle forward, loosening the reins. I can clarify that later if you haven't the time to do so. Montanabw^(talk) 04:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When the handler walks on the ground behind the horse, it is called "ground driving" and it is a kind of driving (as opposed to leading and riding). --Una Smith (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but you don't need to put a crupper on a surcingle for ground driving, there's nothing pulling it forward. The only reason you need a crupper on a bitting rig is if it's being pulled forward due to use of a side reins and/or an overcheck. Hence, while technically ground driving is "driving," in the context of a bitting rig, which is primarily a longeing tool and secondarily used for ground driving by some trainers who happen to ground drive, it is important to be precise and not leave a wrong impression. Montanabw^(talk) 05:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, a harness "saddle" is one term for one way of setting up the harness girthing system, the whole rig isn't a "saddle" -- see horse harness, where Richard did a lot of the editing. For more detail, I dug around and found a couple "parts of the harness" diagrams that aren't too bad, see UK English version here, extremely detailed USA draft horse harness diagram here, and another draft horse harness chart without a crupper. Montanabw^(talk) 05:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Talk about newest round of edits

I edited your latest edit, tried to meld the best of the old and new. Went to a lot of work to restore footnotes and source everything. If you are not happy with what I have done, let's discuss details here. Normally when I edit these articles, I put in a lot of hidden text to explain each of my changes, but I am not sure it will work, so just comment on things you wonder about and we'll sort it out. Montanabw^(talk) 06:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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