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Page name dispute: Marshall & Chilevic

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== Counter productive editing ruins the spirit of the project ==
I (with Cruzville) started the Croats of Chile wikipage a few days ago and you changed the name from Croats of Chile to Croatian Chilean without any discussion. You made no significant contribution to it apart from renaming it – this is very counter productive and goes against the respect editors general convey to each other in this project.
On your edit you stated: "Moved in order to fit according to other articles such as German Chilean". But this page wasn’t started as part of a series on Chilean immigration it was started as Part of a Series on Croats – by region or country. (within the Wikiproject Croatia).
I linked this page to a page in spanish wikipedia Inmigración croata en Chile because it was related to the one I started – but I have been unable to discuss the page with the principal editor who is probably from Chile. This Spanish page appears to be part of an attempt to create a series on immigrations in Chile (but it isn’t part of any specific wikiproject) so it started from a different point – the page I started was within Series on Croats. The link between these two project has to be discussed so that the information can be shared and some how serve both the project in Spanish/Chilean and that in English/Series of Croats.
Whether there is any validity to the change of page you introduced is not the point the point is that it should have been discussed. I would appreciate if you undid this change of name or I will have to start a discussion on it within the Project Croatia – which would be a great waste of time, time that I could use to further research the topic and expand the article. Regards, - Cruzville & Chilevic (talk) 15:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
== Croatian Chilean ==
If I receive any more aggressive/insulting comments from your part, I will be forced to report you to the Wikipedia civility alerts.
In reponse to your other comment, Croatian Chilean is the most appropiate name for the article as it stands. The article could be named "Croats of Chile," but it is more standard and correct to have it under the title of Croatian Chilean. If you want to go more in-depth on how the Croatians arrived in Chile and lived, that's what the History section is there for. This clearly demonstrates that the article has barely any contributors to it, so moving it without a discussion was not much of a problem. You did the right thing in commenting on my talk page, although it would have been more correct to discuss it on the article's actual discussion page, your disagreement with the move; but you should not have attacked me. However, I will not report you to Wikipedia's civility alert center as I will assume WP:Good Faith from your part (Unless, that is, you make me change my opinion). Happy a good day.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 17:36, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
As a matter of thought, the article reads exactly as a Crotian Chilean article would read. If the article was actually dealing with Croats of Chile, it would be more close to articles such as Croats of Serbia. The Croatian culture in Chile is not independent of the widespread population, such as the case in Serbia, but rather it has blended in through the years and has led to the establishment of such a thing as Croatian Chileans. Another thing to note is that the article sometimes makes mention of "Chilean-Croat," but that seems to be an incorrect term as it (upon a first look) strikes as Chileans that have blended into Croatian society (which is not the case).--[[User:MarshalN20|[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|]](talk) 17:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Finally, if User:Cruzville has anything to say to me, let him act on his own merit and do not include him into your statement. That is highly undiplomatic and, if considered with care, might even lead me to think that Cruzville might not even know you're using him to solidify your statement.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 17:55, 11 April 2009 (UTC)



Regarding the above block quotes from MarshalN20 and Chilevic talk pages:

Chilevic did not start this page (even though Chilevic has contributed most of the current content of the page - which is probably why she/he thinks she started it) I did and I have no problem nor care about the change of name (the page is under GNU). Actually the name introduced by Marshall is demographically and ethnologically more accurate. Marshall obviously has a better understanding of the Croatian question than Chilevic, given that the situation of Croats in the Balkans is fundamentally different to that of Chileans of Croatian descent. Few of the 400,000 Chileans with ethnic links to Croatia are Croats most are simply Chileans of Croatian descent this can be noted in their surnames which often includes one Slavic and one Spanish. In some cases considering the high rate of inter-ethnic marriages in Chile some Chileans of croatian descent may have lost the legal use of both slavic surnames or may even have acquired a non-spanish or non-slavic surname. So the change of name to the page was warranted.

On the other hand Chilevic’s comment that renaming pages without trying to discuss why a page should be renamed is counter-productive to the project is also valid. In his reply Marshall evaded the fact that the page was started as part of a series of the Wikiproject Croatia as was correctly stated by Chilevic. Moreover, I don’t see any personal attacks let alone aggressive/insulting comments in the posting made by Chilevic to Marshall on his/her talk page – the only threats I see or threat-like statements are made by Marshall in his reply to Chilevic by mentioning all the wikipolicies Marshall seems to think Chilevic has violated – which is utterly unfounded. Chilevic could simply have reversed marshals renaming of the page, the fact that she didn’t and instead placed a comment on Marshalls page is evidence that Chilevic appears to be more familiar with the policies Marshall claims to be upholding and defending.

Segments of some policies and guidelines relevent to this issue

Wikipedia:Ownership of articles
Even though people can never "own" an article, it is still important to respect your fellow contributors' work and ideas. Therefore, when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor, it is often more effective to try to work with the editor, instead of against them…
Wikipedia:Civility
[Wikipedia]… policy is not a weapon to use against other contributors. To insist that an editor be sanctioned for an isolated, minor offense, or to treat constructive criticism as an attack, is itself disruptive, and may result in warnings or even blocks if repeated.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions
Especially when there is no other basis for a decision, the name given the article by its creator should prevail. Any proposal to change between names should be examined on a case-by-case basis, and discussed on talk pages before a name is changed.
Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers
 The principle "Ignorantia juris non excusat" (Latin for: "ignorance of the law does not excuse") is incompatible with the guidelines of not biting and assuming good faith. You yourself violate Wikipedia's guidelines and policies when you attack a new user for ignorance of them.

____Cruzville (talk) 20:01, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I don't quite understand what your point is in this discussion. Are you desiring to discuss the matter of the name or whether there was some civility problem? On the matter of civility, which is the only subject seemingly able for me to discuss at this moment...
    • Chilevic's statement: You made no significant contribution to it apart from renaming it – this is very counter productive and goes against the respect editors general convey to each other in this project. [...] I would appreciate if you undid this change of name or I will have to start a discussion on it within the Project Croatia – which would be a great waste of time, time that I could use to further research the topic and expand the article.
    • Comparison to Wiki sample: Hi! I notice that you are a new contributor to the widget article. Thank you sooo much for your ideas. It is wonderful to know that so many novices like yourself have taken an interest to widgets. [...]
In just that one statement, Chilevic accused me of doing a counter-productive edit and being disrespectful. Stating that a move is counter-productive is an illogical and insulting statement if it has no good foundation to it. I demonstrated my point when on my second comment to Chilevic I responded to Chilevic the difference between "Croats of" and "Croatian blah blah," therefore I also did not evade what he was discussing. However, I will agree that I did not strike the discussion with a more effective tip to the Wikiproject he mentioned, but I was expecting to wait for his reply (which he never made).
However, I will not go too ind depth with that, as you apparently are trying to, because this is the talk page for the Croatian Chilean page. For these kind of discussions please go to the appropiate Wikipedia page, which has a name that I apologize cannot currently provide for you.
Thank you for agreeing with my re-naming of the page, by the way.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 04:44, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Languages in the infobox

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What do Croats of Chile have to do with German or Serbian language? Can someone explain this??Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 22:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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