Talk:Creed Taylor

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External links modified

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

CreedImage small (cropped).jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New Picture of Creed Taylor

Following the deletion of the picture of Creed, I approached is son's John and Blake Taylor about a photograph that could be used, unencumbered by copyright. Blake has offered a picture that he took in 2021.

I know Blake has to send an email in attesting to being the photographer but if someone could advise me on the sequence of how the picture would get added here that would be great. Cathcam (talk) 16:20, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This was completed 5/18/2023 Cathcam (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Gene Lees/Astrud Gilberto copy over

An update by anonymous user 11:21, 8 June 2023‎ 205.239.40.3 copied over the following text from the Astrud Gilberto page.

"According to Lees, in Singers and the Song II, however, Getz asked Taylor to ensure that singer Astrud Gilberto was paid no royalties on the “The Girl from Ipanema” single, which went on to sell more than five million copies. It became one of the most covered songs in the history of pop music."

Adding this information here doesn't provide any new information and is entirely without context and detail. As can be seen from the Astrud Gilberto talk page, it's subject to years long controversy. I would like to prose deleting it from this page. Cathcam (talk) 16:02, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you mean by "doesn't provide any new information". The context is Creed's nurturing of bossa nova. This new material seems to provide a slight foil to the main contention that Creed must have always helped to promote Astrud Gilberto's career. How can you have a mention of "The Girl from Ipanema" without any mention of Gilberto? But I agree though that Creed's part in the minor scandal of the non-payment is not clear. The source says: “It was at this point that Getz called Creed’s office. Betsy, Creed’s secretary, took the call. Creed was out of the office. When he returned and she told him Stan was anxious to talk with him, Creed thought Stan must be calling to see that Astrud got some share of the royalties. On the contrary, he was calling to make sure that she got nothing.”. It's a shame that the second part, which says the single "... went on to sell more than five million copies. It became one of the most covered songs in the history of pop music" isn't sourced. Because that is probably the bit that really should be mentioned here. 86.187.162.170 (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My point was the information/speculation around this claim is already on the Gilberto page. If it's ever resolved along with the context of the Getz/Gilberto relationship claims, then it may be worthy of inclusion here. It's easy to see why Getz may be either vindictive or manipulative towards Astrud, given his penchant for drugs at the time. There's no doubt the decision to pay Astrud was Creed's though. For a man of few words, it's odd that Taylor would discuss he thoughts with Betsy, which is the only implication you can draw from the source provided.

A new biography of Creed is in the works, it will be interesting to see if the author touches this subject, and if he does, then it may well be worth quoting both here. Cathcam (talk) 19:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If the incident if mentioned on the Gilberto page, that's no reason in itself why it should be excluded here. If the incident is notable, and Creed was involved, then I think it also deserves mention here. But I agree his part is not wholly clear. Do you know how long it might be before that new biography is published? Evenso, that other information is not dependent on that new biography. It could easily be added with sources. 86.187.162.170 (talk) 21:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the publishing schedule. I know the publisher draft is done. Cathcam (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, well we might have to wait to get clarity on Creed's part in Gilberto's payment. But I suggest that The Verve years section should mention:

Astrud Gilberto.
The single sold more than five million copies.
It became one of the most covered songs in the history of pop music.

Thanks. 86.187.162.170 (talk) 21:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will ask the writer if it's a topic he has tackled.

I agree that some form of value statement about the value created by the success of the Samba movement, including the uniqgue and irreplaceable contribution of Astrud should be included in the Verve years.I'll see what I can put together, feel free to add other things you feel could be included here. Cathcam (talk) 16:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The author has not addressed this at all.

Astrud didn't have a contract or union membership, so she wasn't legally entitled to royalties; she was paid for 2-days studio time as per Taylor's logs. How much this payment was is even disputed. There are many, many other examples of artists with and without contracts not getting what they felt was "fair" this not limited to the gender, the sixties, Taylor or Verve.

The single released was a result of Taylor and the engineers' work, not how it was performed. A November 1963 mono DJ edit exists that relegated Getz sax to the fade-out and included Joao's vocals. Without a date for his call to Taylor and despite Getz's drug-related rages, there's no evidence Taylor or Verve/MGM would have paid Astrud royalties if Getz hadn't called, in fact it's unlikely. Popular opinion has it per Castro "the recording languished in Taylor's drawer" except it didn't, it was being worked on and a September 1963 acetate of the complete album exists with tracks in a different order and differences in the mix.

The issue may be crucial for Astrud's page, not Taylor's. The real problem lies with Astrud's agent and booking manager for anything that happened post the studio dates and any touring or recording deals. Taylor wasn't either Getz or Gilberto's manager.

This page still needs a lot of work, I just don't see this issue as important to the record of Taylor's work.Cathcam (talk) 19:23, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]