Talk:Consolidated Commodore

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Out of service by 1935?

Pan Am retired it's last Commodore in September 1946.

NC668 crashed on 24 August 1944 in Biscayne Bay, while operating out of Dinner Key due to taking off with locked controls.

Out of service by 1935?

Hah.Mark Lincoln 22:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That claim came from NASA SP-468, the original source for this article. Pan American timetables make it clear that it's completely wrong, though, and I've removed it. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 08:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Use during World War 2

Pan Am Airways Navigation School in Miami, Florida continued to use Commodores until at least late 1942 as training aircraft. The Royal Air Force used it to train aircrews, probably for most of the war. My father (who later flew in Halifax bombers in 78 Squadron) started his training there. Between 6 July and 11 October he clocked up 51 hours 40 minutes in NC669M and NC670M (20:25 hrs at night) with various pilots.PhilJeffries (talk) 17:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Operators

As far as reported by Popular Mechanics in the caption to the photo retrieved from the external link to Google Book, The Commodore was in service in 1930, before the Pan Am was founded, and had to be a route operated by NYRBA. Thanks for your attention.--Threecharlie (talk) 19:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Odd, that....per the Pan Am article, that airline was founded in 1927...but from from the PanAm history page, it would seem that you are correct that the New York, Rio and Buenos Aires Airline was the first to fly the bird. The China National Airways Corporation website http://www.cnac.org/aircraft16.htm tracks the fate of one of the birds through 1937, when it was transferred to China. DocKrin (talk) 13:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the Commodore was definitely not in service before Pan American was founded, but it was originally built for NYRBA, whom Consolidated had a close relationship with. Pan American got the type through buying NYRBA, before the production order had been completed, and Pan American received the balance of the order. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 16:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Clipper nickname

In reviewing the sections on the Martin 130/156 series and the Boeing 314 series, both were known by the nickname 'Clipper' while in Pan American Airlines service and named for various ports of call. While one of the M-130s was specifically known as 'The China Clipper,' only three M-130s were used by PanAm, as opposed to 12 B-314s. The original reference in this article was to the Martin 156, which was a modified M-130 and was sold to the Russians, not PanAm. [link removed due to copyright problems] also indicates the type as Model 16, and indicates that a total of 14 were built. DocKrin (talk) 13:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You should probably remove the link there - see WP:AVIASTAR. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 16:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

thank you. I had not cross referenced the page before posting.DocKrin (talk) 01:34, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No worries.

- The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:57, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The "Clipper" naming system was the idea of Juan Trippe the honco of PanAm. The practice of naming "Clippers" started with the S-40s.

Specifications were certainly incorrect, even though cited, due to low-quality source. Fixed.

The listed specifications for the Commodore were clearly incorrect (some grossly so), even though they had been cited from a published book:

Sharpe, Michael (2000). Biplanes, Triplanes, and Seaplanes. London: Friedman/Fairfax Books. ISBN 1-58663-300-7.

It appears that this book was very sloppy in its fact-checking. Except for the passenger capacity, the engines, and the maximum speed, the given specifications were identical to those for the Consolidated P2Y, despite the fact that the P2Y was an improved design with more powerful engines and an additional lower stub wing and was a maritime patrol aircraft rather than an airliner. I've replaced the Commodore specs with those in the 1930 edition of Jane's, with a few values confirmed by the Commodore's type certificate data sheet. (The other values in Jane's are also apparently consistent with other sources.) --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 18:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Argentine operators of Commodores

Aviación del Litoral Fluvial Argentino or A.L.F.A. never operated it's Commodore. It was SANA (Sociedad Argentina de Navegación Aérea ) that operated Commodores in Argentina after they were sold by Pan Am. When SANA closed 16 August 1943 LV-AAL was sold to Compania de Navegacion Dodero, then on 23 of December of 1947 it was sold to ALFA (Coastal River Argentinian Aviacion Del) where it remained up to 3 of February of 1948 when it was destroyed. This is why the Aviation Safety Network Data Base list ALFA "operator" when VL-AAL and is listed as a "hull loss occurrence". LV-AAL never flew after SANA closed. NYRBA-Argentina (Trimotor Safety Airways, Inc.) operated three Commodores, NC666M registered as R-ACWT NC855M as R-ACWZ and NC665M R-ACVT. SANA operated NC661M first as LV-CXA then LV-QBQ finally LV-AAL, and NC658M as LV-DXA later LV-RAB.

NYRBA use of Commodores

Ralph A. O'Neill, who founded NYRBA,in his book about that airlines makes numerous references to the use of Commodores by NYRBA. This includes flights out of Miami and Rio. He does not seem to say that there was straight through service by Commodores. It seems that some legs were flown by Sikorsky S-38s. See: A Dream of Eagles, Ralph A. O'Neill, 1973, Sanfrancisco Book Company (Houghton Mifflin), Boston ISBN 0-395-16610-1.

Regular all Commodore service was started in Feb. 1930 using 8 Commodores flying separate sections.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bahama Airways Commodore

The last Commodore to fly, NC 667M, Consolidated Commodore c/n 11, originally delivered to NYRBA and apparently not named. To Pan Am on 15 September 1930. Sold on 1.6.45 to Bahamas Airways, registered VP-BAA, in 1949. VP-BAA was the first airplane registered in the Bahamas. As with so many of the Commodores the ultimate fate of this Consolidated Commodore is not known. See: http://www.airhistory.org.uk/gy/reg_N29.html and http://www.logbookmag.com/databases/articles.asp?ID=91&CatID=47

VP-BAA served at least until 1952 making it the last of Pan Americans major flying boats flying. The Commodore out lasted all of the Sikorsky S-40s, S-42s, Martin M-130s and Boeing 314s which replaced it as the flagship of Pan Am. See: http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac5/ROW%20Civil%20A/VP-BAA.html

This wraps up my overhaul of the Consolidated Commodore page.

A Few Last Mysteries

According to the United States Civil Aircraft Register http://www.airhistory.org.uk/gy/reg_N29.html Commodore c/n 8 (NC664M) was owned by two organizations, Chamberlin AL (Chamberlin Airline?) and Miami-Key West Airways, before it went to Alaska Star Airlines. The United States Civil Aircraft Register listed NC664M to Chamberlain AL before it listed Miami-Key West Airways as the owner. As I have not been able to find evidence that either actually operated the aircraft, I did not include them as "operators" of the Commodore.

Miami-Key West Airways, Inc. was a Florida corporation active between October 4, 1934 and August 7, 1940. I have been unable to learn anything else.

Chamberlin left more footprints. There was a Chamberlain Aeronautical Corp, and a Crescent Aircraft Corp Aircraft Corp (pres: C D Chamberlin) both of Jersey City, NJ. Crescent Aircraft was founded in 1930 and went Bankrupt in 1939. Crescent Aircraft Corp produced several airplane including the C-2 Trainer for the Chamberlain School of Aviation in 1930. The United States Civil Aircraft Register lists the "type" of those airplanes as "Chamberlain" and not "Crescent Aircraft".

Clarence Chamberlin was a WW I flyer in the Aviation Section of the Signal Corps, later a barnstormer. He also worked as a corporate pilot, a flight instructor, an air-mail pilot, and an aerial photographer. One of his businesses was to buy surplus Army planes, restore them, and then sell them. He set an endurance record, and flew a record setting Transatlantic flight which was also the first transatlantic flight to carry a passenger. He opened Chamberlin Airline which flew between New York and Boston and which failed (dates unknown). Chamberlin Airline may have been the Chamberlain AL listed on the United States Civil Aircraft Register. If so did the equipment of Chamberlin Airline include Commodore CN664M?

During the 1930s he had a barnstorming operation, Chamberlin Flying Service Incorporated, which flew four Curtiss Condor COs which were acquired from Eastern Air Transport (later Eastern Airlines). One of them crashed on October 21, 1935. The copilot was Ruth R. Nichols which made the demise of NC-725K the first Commercial accident with a female fight crew member. Chamberlain Air Service flew it's Condors until 1937, perhaps as late as 1939. During the same period he owned flight schools, aviation trades schools and aircraft dealerships. As a dealer in used airplanes, that the paths of Clarence Duncan Chamberlain and the Consolidated Commodore might have crossed. Chamberlain apparently sold Consolidated Commodore CN664M to Alaska Star Airlines. How it came to be owned by Chamberlain before he sold it to Alaska Star Airlines remains a mystery.

Any information about either Miami-Key West Airways, Inc., or Chamberlain's connection to NC664M will be welcomed. - Mark Lincoln Mark Lincoln (talk) 15:43, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

5 Apr 1930 - #8 Built as a Model 16-1 (NC664M)
19 Apr 1930 - MYRBA Line "Puerto Rico"
13 Aug 1930 - Accident near Havana when both engines faile, landed in a suger cane field, no injuries but the right wing broken
15 Sep 1930 - Pan American Airways (Caribbean Division)
1 Sep 1932 - Repaired by Pan Am at Diner Key, Miami
1 Nov 1936 - NC licence expired (with Pan Am)
1 Apr 1937 - Louise A Chamberlin (op) Chamberlin Air Lines, Miami Clarence D Chamberlin dba Miami-Key West Airways
15 Jul 1938 - Licence expired then stored
20 Apr 1942 - Aircraft Exporting Co., New York
1943 - reported as dismantled (also reported in September 1942 while on a delivery flight from Miami to Alaska landed at Takla Lake in British Columbia to refuel, caught fire and destroyed).

Information courtesy of Air-Britain Archive Summer 2008 which also has a picture of NC664M with "Champerlin Air Lines" on the rear fuselage. MilborneOne (talk) 17:26, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks that clears up a lot of things about the Chamberlain connection. The flying boat in the sugarcane field caper is told on page 299 of Ralph O'Niell's book. The plane was on a scheduled flight from Cienfuegos to Havana. The pilot was Herman E. Sewell 2602:304:68AF:ADA0:203:93FF:FEAD:8294 (talk) 00:30, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NYRBA

Why was any mention of the New York, Rio, Buenos Aires Line purged? NYRBA was the customer for the Commodore. It is true that the last 4 were delivered to Pan Am, but . . .

I also replaced a citation using a web site for one using a book. Web citations are ephemeral. Books are not.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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