Talk:Conchita Wurst/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Colombian descent

Neuwirth is not of Columbian descent. Refer to http://conchitawurst.com/index.php?id=7 He made up a Conchita Wurst as a stage persona with a fictional biography. Please correct. -84.112.231.139 (talk) 10:12, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

 Done PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:37, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

No mentions of Conchita being born in Colombia

Conchita has claimed for several sources that she was born in Colombia. She has claimed this in her biography at her site and an interview for Wiwiblogs. There have been claims that she was born near Bogota, in the highlands of Colombia, in Spanish speaking media outlets, including El Espectador and Antena2.

I think this must be addressed somewhere in the article. --Javp87 (talk) 03:47, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

It will do in due course. AT present there is a lengthy dispute taking place (see above) that needs to be resolved with urgency before we can even get going on adding new content to the article. Regards, Wes Mᴥuse 03:50, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Remember that Conchita Wurst is an "art figure" persona ("Because of the discrimination against Tom in his teenage years, he created Conchita, The Bearded Lady, as a statement"). Wurst's biography is therefore a fictional biography. This is different to the biography of her creator, Thomas Neuwirth. If Wikipedia is to describe a biography of Wurst, it must make it clear it is an 'in universe' or fictional biography. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 04:02, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Meaning of the surname 'Wurst'

I think this should be explained to the English speaking world: Wurst means ‘sausage’ in German. The name comes from a Austrian idiom Das ist (mir) Wurst (lit. ‘This is sausage (to me)’) meaning ‘This does not matter (to me)’. The choice of name is therefore programmtic, indicating that Tom Neuwirth considers appearance ans sexual orientation as a non-issue.

He explains this in a chat interview at http://derstandard.at/1397521434127/Chat-mit-Conchita-Wurst

Question: Wie bist du auf den Namen Conchita Wurst gekommen? ‘Why did you choose the name Conchita Wurst?’

Answer: Conchita wurde ich von einer kubanischen Freundin getauft und den Nachnamen, weil es eben "wurst" ist, woher man kommt und wie man aussieht. ‘I was called Conchita by a Cuban friend, and concerning the surname, because it is sausage (=does not matter) where you come from and what you look like.’

I think that should make it to the article, but it’s blocked. 49.244.243.8 (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, I guess you also need to explain "Conchita" as a first name, coupled with the last name "Wurst" (sausage). Conchita is the diminutive of "concha", meaning "shell", but that has a very explicit meaning in Spanish: it is used to designated the vagina in a very vulgar way. So the name Conchita (vagina) Wurst (sausage, i.e. I leave to your imagination what it stands for), is clearly no coincidence...

Before imagination takes us too far, let me add that unlike sausage in English, Wurst is not used as a synonym for penis in German. 89.217.24.38 (talk) 11:47, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, I have heard it so in German, but rarely. It is in no way a standard euphemism for penis, and the explanation given in the interview is sound, because the expression is extremely common in Austria (less so in Germany) and it probably used twice a day by every Austrian, on average. 49.244.247.117 (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

It is very common in southern Germany too, especially in Bavaria. It's even pronounced the same way here ("wurscht" or "wuascht"). Bavarian dialects are spoken in a large part of Bavaria as well as most of Austria. The idiom das ist mir wurst is known in the rest of Germany, too, even if it may not be used as much – there are various alternatives which are more common in the north. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:15, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

And let me add that according to Wikipedia the name Conchita originally is a diminutive of the name Concepción. 89.217.24.38 (talk) 11:54, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I doubt very much that this choice of name is mere coincidence, although I cannot prove this hunch of mine. It is very much in a tradition of double entendre in the LGBT, drag and related scenes. As far as I am aware, LGBT people tend to take it pretty much for granted that the name of the band Queen is an allusion to gay slang, while many straight people live in blissful ignorance of this obvious interpretation. Freddie Mercury has pointed out that there are many ways to interpret the band name, and that the mentioned one is but one facet, but a facet it is. Similarly, it is fair to assume that the name Conchita Wurst has more than one facet to it. Clever, multi-layered wordplay, which often goes straight over the head of outsiders, is valued in several subcultures. So it is plausible, even probable, that the choice of name was influenced by such a consideration. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:20, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Wurst

While in German, Wurst means 'sausage,' ...

As a non-English common noun, "Wurst" should be italicized: Wurst. Sca (talk) 14:08, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

 Question: On what basis would italicized serve a better purpose than how it currently looks? Would this be in-line with manual of style? Wes Mᴥuse 19:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

See MOS:WORDSASWORDS. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:15, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

English meaning of the name "Conchita Wurst"

It might be a bit off-topic for the article but "conchita" is the diminutive form of the Spanish word "concha", which in addition to meaning among others things "mussle" is a slang word for "pussy", while "Wurst" is the German word for "sausage". So the English meaning of the name would be "little pussy sausage". A name that would probably be appropriate, and quite amusing, as the name of a drag show persona, but might be a bit inappropriate for someone intending on a mainstream music career under that name. Thomas.W ^talk 21:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I've merged your thread into this combined one, as it is covering the same issue and makes more sense to have them all bundled together. Wes Mᴥuse 22:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I thought Conchita is a dimunitive to "conception" or "to be born/conceived", hence Conchita Wurst is "Born a sausage(man)". Sausage and mussels as one's name is rather amusing though. -- Sjschen (talk)

In an interview she explains, how she got the name and that she knows that Conchita is also used for female Genitalia. Judith Sunrise (talk) 21:56, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Video

Conchita Wurst at Eurovision Song Contest 2014.

I got some typo-problems when trying to ad this video. Can anyone else add it? The text under did not appear. Adville (talk) 13:18, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

 Done Wes Mᴥuse 13:26, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Ethnicity

Many people are curious about Conchita Wurst/Tom Neuwirth ethnicity. She is obviously not a Germanic, he looks like a Turk. Is anything know on this subject? I think it's pretty relevant to tons of peoples' interest--24.203.108.54 (talk) 03:45, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Is there nothing that comes up from a Google search? As we are dealing with an article about a living person we have to be very careful that we only write content that can be 200% verified via reliable sources. Without such sources, then we cannot speculate or even guess. Wes Mᴥuse 03:50, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Neuwirth's ethnicity may be judged more reliably from the picture from 2007 also shown in the article. Of course sources will still be needed if the ethnicity actually is to be mentioned in the article. 89.217.24.38 (talk) 12:03, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Many native Austrians whose ancestors are not known to have immigrated from somewhere else look rather swarthy, i. e., vaguely Mediterranean. (Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example, hardly looks like Marvel's Thor.) Neuwirth's appearance, as far as I can tell from the pictures, is entirely within that range. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:01, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

You can't really say what someone's ethnicity is just by looking at a photograph - well not all the time anyway. I'm British, yet I have Danish looks. I don't have any ancestors from Denmark that I know of. So because I look Danish, does that automatically make me of Danish ethnicity? No. The same should be applied here with Conchita. Until we know his/her ethnicity, then we should not speculate just by looking at a photo. Wes Mᴥuse 16:10, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, that was my entire point! Austrians, and Southern Germans too, are often quite dark-haired and not at all stereotypically Germanic-looking, so appearances can be deceiving. There's this waiter in a beer garden who looked Egyptian to me, but he swore he's born and raised in Bavaria and knows of no foreign ancestors. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The beard is partly painted in, which is part of the overall effect. Easy to find pictures of Tom Newirth online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Petercascio (talk • contribs) 23:03, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

As Wesley Mouse points out above, the question of ethnicity in the article will be determined by what reliable sources say. Everything else is just speculating. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I added a source from Wiwibloggs confirming Conchita/Tom's ethnicity as being Colombian, but it was deleted for some reason. Jjj1238 (talk) 00:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

That might have something to do with WP:BLOGS. A lot of websites are now using the word "blog" in their domain name, and people classify them as a blog which are not permitted to be used as a source, apparently. Wes Mᴥuse 00:06, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh ok, should I readd it then? Jjj1238 (talk) 03:06, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I suppose there is nothing wrong in checking their reliability status. See if other posts that they've written are accurate and verifiable. Then we'd at least know if Wiwiboggs is safe to use as a source or not. Wes Mᴥuse 03:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I've used Wiwibloggs as a source on many pages before such as new artist and song pages and I could've sworn they were one of the websites listed as "reliable" by the EBU or something like that. It was a few months ago I saw that so I don't really remember the details. Jjj1238 (talk) 03:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I've just check ProjectEurovision's list of reliable sources, and Wiwibloggs do not appear on it. Wes Mᴥuse 03:21, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

That is the fictional biography of Conchita Wurst, and has nothing to do with the real biography of Tom Neuwirth who was born in Gmunden (Upper Austria) and raised in Bad Mitterndorf (Styria). Judith Sunrise (talk) 21:56, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

That's weird then, I could've sworn I saw it on one of those lists. Anyways, I've used Wiwibloggs on other articles before, thinking it was considered a reliable source of information so I would definitely support it being added to the list. Jjj1238 (talk) 03:34, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The list from EBu isn't really EBU endorsed, and they do stipulate that. They are merely advertising other websites that may be of interest to Eurovision fans. If Wiwibloggs is to be included as reliable, then we're going to have to do a reliability check and make sure they publish facts and not fiction. Wes Mᴥuse 03:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Ethnicity is hard to tell from a single picture. There is a video on Youtube where she meets her/Tom's parents. Judith Sunrise (talk) 21:56, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit requests

11 May 2014

First request

According to Neuwirth he got the name Conchita from a Cuban friend, and the last name comes from the upper german 'Das ist Wurscht', or as Tom said: "It doesn't really matter where one comes from, and what one looks like." The dialect word "Wurscht" literally means sausage, and is spelled "Wurst" in standard german. ThurnerRupert (talk) 09:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

References

Doesn't the article already address this? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:53, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty much certain is does, yes. Wes Mᴥuse 19:43, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

it does, but it is not very precise imo. there are quite some sources who confirm that he was born in gmunden so there is no point to write as he has made this up. same with the bad mitterndorf where he grew up. "it does not matter" is different from "it does not matter to me" how the article translates what he said. "das ist wurscht" is common in the southern dialects, but does not exist in standard german. in the source, an interview, he states that in private, he is tom neuwirth, and male. the article is missing that as tom neuwirth he speaks styrian dialect, and conchita speaks standard german - which is quite different. but of course you are right, that all can wait a couple of weeks before beeing added :) --ThurnerRupert (talk) 20:15, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Well at the moment, and in case you hadn't realised. There is a much larger dispute taking place (see further up this talk page). It is that dispute that has caused this article to be fully protected in the first place. If it comes down to us having to create 2 articles, one for Neuwirth and one for Wurst, then this information you mention would inevitably be added to the Wurst article. But we cannot do very much right now, until the dispute has been resolved. Wes Mᴥuse 20:22, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Second request

In the Biography section it currently reads that "Neuwirth stated that he was born in Gmunden". Well, the source is his own website and it still gives the same information, so can the article be changed to "Neuwirth states that he was born in Gmunden"? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 10:03, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Isn't this just a grammar issue that could easily be amended once we've found a resolution to the "pronoun" dispute above? I think the priority here is get that dispute resolved amicably and swiftly, then any other minor alterations like grammar can be fixed afterwards. Wes Mᴥuse 19:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Third request

If wikipedia is still an objective and logical source of knowledge, you should specify his gender : male. Thank you. 82.166.42.38 (talk) 19:33, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

 Declined: See ongoing content dispute debate above. Wes Mᴥuse 19:39, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

LGBT

I really don't think this is a good source. Is this the best source that exists regarding his supposed sexuality? --John (talk) 10:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

That is a quote which is absolutely explicit and not open to any misinterpretation: "When Tom realized that he was attracted to men, and not to women, '(I) didn't dare go to the bathroom during breaks any longer, I only went during lessons.' And then he adds quietly 'There are still teens who take their own lives because they are homosexual.'" What more is needed?(Petercascio (talk) 23:13, 11 May 2014 (UTC)).

There is also an article referring to Neuwirth coming out on Austrian TV in 2007 at http://www.tz.de/stars/conchita-wurst-mann-oder-frau-schwul-oder-nicht-infos-eurovision-song-contest-2014-oesterreich-3538518.html Guess that should be good enough to settle this.Petercascio (talk) 23:29, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I had questions about these sources. Are they reliable? --John (talk) 07:46, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

See below for newly published source. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 17:10, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Would it not make perfect sense to have added the new source into this thread then, rather than creating a new one which just splits a debate up into two different places? Makes more sense to contain the debate about this in one easier flowing discussion. Only suggesting! Wes Mᴥuse 17:16, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It is very surprising to me that an experienced editor and advanced German speaker like John was unable to verify die Bonitaet of tz.de, the online edition of the Munich print daily TagesZeitung, which in the linked article reported that Neuwirth came out on live TV in Austria in 2007. Fortunately here is the Indy to the rescue. Or do we really have to wait for Aunty? http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/conchita-wurst-how-a-bearded-drag-pervert-reviled-by-russia-became-the-toast-of-europe-9350504.html Petercascio (talk) 22:41, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh, thank you too for your diligence, I hadn't seen this. I can of course understand the Austrian source but I do not have enough knowledge of the Austrian press scene to know if this was a reliable one for a fairly controversial claim about a living person. The reputable English-language source that now two of you have found is fine for me. --John (talk) 22:44, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Source for TN as gay man

Conchita, real name Tom Neuwirth, 25, grew up in a small Austrian village of Bad Mitterndorf in the southern province of Styria, and revealed that being gay in a small village had been tough - but that her mother had always supported her.

...

Conchita said: 'It was shortly before my 18th birthday when I came out and admitted that I was gay. If you are prepared to admit to others and to yourself who you really are, then you can have a fantastic life. Of course, you need to have a thick skin to get through it all.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2625866/Winner-whisker-Austrias-bearded-lady-conquers-Eurovision-Russias-rage.html

Suggest we edit this in to the article and add LGBT categories etc.

Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 17:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, thanks for looking. The Daily Mail, as a tabloid, isn't a good source for a BLP either. What does the BBC say about him? The Guardian? --John (talk) 18:20, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Know what you mean, I'm not a big fan of the Mail myself. But they have lawyers and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't print a quote from him saying that he was gay if they weren't fairly certain that the quote was genuine.

They seem to have an exclusive on this (interview + family photos) for now, but I'm sure other sources will appear soon. So we could always leave it for a few days.

It is a direct quote from him, so I guess I'm arguing (with some regret) that the Mail is a WP:RS for this purpose, despite the admonition against tabloid journalism in WP:BLPSOURCES.

Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It worries me greatly that The Mail, being described as a 'tabloid', is being pushed in the same corner as the Sun. As much as one may hate it, it fulfills the demand made of a reliable source, that it is "a mass-market newspaper." Were I of a different political persuasion I might want to challenge the Guardian because of the leftist leaning of much of the opinion pages. Quite clearly neither should fly on Wikipedia. Petercascio (talk) 22:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It is not a question of politics but of reliability. The Mail routinely prints lies about living people, whose recourse, if they can afford it, is to sue in court. It would not be suitable as a source for anything remotely controversial on a living person. --John (talk) 06:09, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Watch, this is going to turn into one of those Jodie Foster/Georgia O'Keefe things where they never actually get listed as GLBT even though they are. BTW I LOVE how Russia is pissed about his winning. This needs to be mentioned in the article. --RThompson82 (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with this, the paper are very sensationalist and have printed fake reports in the past, it is entirely within reason, although unlikely, that they did just make it up --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:08, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I thought the British Press have now been put under more pressure from the British Government, following the News International phone hacking scandal, and that all British Newspapers are now being watched as part of the Royal Charter on self-regulation of the press. Wes Mᴥuse 13:16, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, if they have, I haven't seen the evidence. Those papers in question undeniably still print exaggerated stories under sensationalist headlines [2]. Of course, in this instance I believe their source is accurate, but I don't think the Sun and Daily Mail are as vigorous in their editing as the Guardian and both are more sales based --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:44, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

2nd source for TN as gay man (The New Yorker)

OK, here's a really good one, it's The New Yorker ("well known for its ... rigorous fact checking"):

Conchita Wurst is the alter ego of the twenty-five-year-old Tom Neuwirth, who created Wurst in response to the discrimination he faced growing up gay in a small Austrian town.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2014/05/conchita-wurst-wins-eurovision-2014.html

This pretty much nails it, surely?

Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 12:39, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, we're getting there. I would prefer if it wasn't a blog post. --John (talk) 18:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

3rd source (The Independent)

Here for the same quote [3], this time in a news section rather than a blog post. It seems legit --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:48, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, thank you for your diligence. --John (talk) 22:39, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

It's okay, I think it was necessary. We have to be sure that what we are publishing is not misinformation and I do understand your lack of trust for the Daily Mail as a source --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 23:17, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Gay Star News

"Behind the makeup is gay singer, Tom Neuwirth, who describes himself as a man and Wurst as a character he plays." http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/conchita-wins-eurovision110514#sthash.JttDcDHj.dpuf

Austrian Times

"Conchita said: "It was shortly before my 18th birthday when I came out and admitted that I was gay." http://austriantimes.at/news/Panorama/2014-05-12/50938/Conchita_Wurst_Gets_Tattoo_In_Honour_Of_Mum

BT.com

"I refer, of course, to last night's winner of Eurovision - a hirsute brunette drag queen from Austria, AKA gay singer Tom Neuwirth." http://home.bt.com/entertainment/tv/talkingpoints/conchita-conquered-eurovision-with-an-almighty-performance-11363900504991

Spiked

"Wurst, whose real name is Tom Neuwirth, is a gay man, who dresses as a woman, but persists with a hairy legacy of his machismo on his prettified face." http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/russia-baiting-reveals-its-wurst-side/15010#.U3fXt5BDvRE

Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 21:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Done (ish)

Added LGBT category and portal link, article text needs update to reflect. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 17:13, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

See also

May a admin add in "see also" a wikilink to Transgender ? it is useful to understand this person. --Dadu (talk) 11:00, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Neuwirth is gay, not transgender. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:24, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps a link to Verka Serduchka would make sense in "see also". Serduchka is a drag queen participant of Eurovision 2007. --91.236.157.91 (talk) 22:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Not really. A line has to be drawn somewhere on what we link to. Otherwise everyone would be wanting every single drag queen known to man to be linked in the see also section. Keep it short and sweet; link to relevant articles; and not to every drag queen article. Wes Mᴥuse 22:22, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to propose the addition of few links to "See also" section.

First, Drag queen. Second, the list of other notable drag queens in Eurovision:

• Verka Serduchka
• Sestre (drag act)
• DQ (singer)

Netrat talk 10:28, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Conchita

Isnt the issue here that this person performs as Conchita Wurst now and probably forever. As himself he is just a regular guy but his performance and what he is known for is the persona Conchita Wurst. So the article should be have the "She" used throughout. And if she ever decides to not be Conchita Wurst when performing perhaps then it could be discussed if the article should be renamed or an individual article should be created to follow his career as a man. It is very difficult but lets not make this really non-issue into a big debate.--BabbaQ (talk) 11:43, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Well in that case, in the article wipe out all the information about the subject prior to 2011. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

No that is not what I ment but I am just pointing out that we can not use He and She in the same article. One of them has to be used throughout.--BabbaQ (talk) 14:00, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Well we can use he and she, just depends on if we are writing context for Neuwirth or Wurst. One only needs to view Lily Savage as a prime example on how Wikipedia have handled drag artists in the past. Wes Mᴥuse 15:55, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Minor edit: Link to English Starmania page, not the Deutsch one

Under "2006–07: Starmania & Jetzt Anders!", there's a link to the page Starmania on the Deutsch Wikipedia. Seeing as there's a reasonably-detailed Starmania page on English Wikipedia, I think the link should point there as it's a much more helpful resource for English Wikipedia readers. ~Smiley 13:59, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Done. --John (talk) 20:58, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

HE WON THE EUROVISION CONTEST!!!!!

Please update!! --- Jean Bernstein — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.120.214 (talk) 20:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Please take time to read the discussion taking place above. Thank you! Wes Mᴥuse 21:09, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

"Bearded Lady"

How can the article not mention the beard before "See Also"? I'm going to say that the names of some cited references don't count since that text is intended for those who want to verify the facts presented. --Elijah (talk) 05:58, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Propose removing this link from See Also. Article subject is not a "bearded lady", by our definition. Misleading. The Interior (Talk) 20:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)