Talk:Composition of Regional Councils of Italy

A single table is needed

It is nice that this article was created (thanks, User:Nick.mon!), but a single table on regional council seats is needed. The tables on each regional council may be included in specific articles: Regional Council of Lombardy, Regional Council of Veneto, Regional Council of Lazio, etc. --Checco (talk) 11:15, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

@Checco and User:Nick.mon: Would it not be better to include the summary table of the regional councils in the page Regional council (Italy), like in it.Wiki (Consiglio regionale (Italia))?--Wololoo (talk) 13:20, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to upload all the council diagrams and create all the tables, but I agree, we should summarize them in a single one, and then having the detailed composition of each council. -- Nick.mon (talk) 13:23, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

And I have no preferences in having it here or, as Wololoo says, in the article "Regional Council (Italy)". -- Nick.mon (talk) 13:30, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Maybe it is better to use the other page as the main one, since it already exists for years, however for me it's the same. If you agree, I would turn this page into a redirect to a specific paragraph in the page Regional Council (Italy). In this paragraph I would include the general table (like in the italian page), while for these single tables, it would be better to create a page for each regional council. For example, I prepared a draft on the Regional Council of Abruzzo--Wololoo (talk) 13:48, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Okok, yes of course, a proper article for each council will be absolutely the best solution. -- Nick.mon (talk) 14:28, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

It is very nice that someone is finally creating an article for each regional council. It is also great that we are now three users updating the articles on politics of Italian regions ("politics of" aricles, "elections in" articles, those on regional institutions, etc.). With "onlyinclude" transclusions we can easily do a good job. I would avoid diagrams because they would need frequent updates only Nick.mon is able to do them...

This said, I would leave the Regional Council (Italy) article separate from this one. The former article should be generic and focused on the institution, while this article should include basically the "general table". --Checco (talk) 18:31, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

For me the two pages can also remain separate, but it would be more practical if the summary page of the regional councils was linked to the itwiki page where there is only one page--Wololoo (talk) 20:02, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Just a clarification, create a diagram is very very easy, you can do it here inserting the party’s name, seats and color and then you can upload it directly to WikiCommons, it takes just few minutes. -- Nick.mon (talk) 22:00, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! I didn't know it. --Wololoo (talk) 23:10, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Uhm, not so easy and quick in my view!

However, sorry if I repeat myself, but it makes no sense to create new articles or update electoral results, if those pages are not linked or transcluded in "Politics of", "Elections in", etc. articles. In "Politics of" articles there are already very small sections on the "Legislative branch", that can be improved (also with a transclusion), while electoral results are transcluded both in "Politics of" and "Elections in" articles. --Checco (talk) 06:48, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

I am ready to enter the general table in this page and consequently the number of regional councilors in the party infoboxes. If you agree, once we have created all the pages on the regional councils, the tables on individual regional councils will be removed from this page.--Wololoo (talk) 22:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Very good! And I agree with removing the tables on regional councils. Are you going to count also regional councillors, especially of minor parties, sitting in mixed groups? For instance, what about the LeU councillor in Veneto? --Checco (talk) 06:34, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Ps: Once again, let's use "onlyinclude" transclusions as far as we can!

The general table in it.wiki is periodically updated, the venetian regional councillor of MDP too was counted. I would generally include in "Others" the civic lists, the regional parties and the independents.--Wololoo (talk) 08:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good: "Others" including civic lists, regional parties (possibly with notes, as they usually have articles and also in those articles the number of regional councillors may be shown in the infobox) and independents. --Checco (talk) 17:49, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

I have completed the pages of the regional councils, in this page I replaced the individual tables with the general table, I hope it is ok for you. Now I will also include the number of regional councilors in the pages of the parties, as established in the previous discussion. --Wololoo (talk) 21:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Updates too soon

Hi all, Facquis, Nick.mon, GianluSport and LarsMoon. I think that on this page, as well as on many other pages related to regional councils in Italy, the updates to the composition of the political groups have been done too fast and too soon. After the most recent (September 2020) elections, most if not all of the newly elected councils have not been seated yet, and the officially working Presidents and councils are still the old ones. I would suggest to please wait until official communication of the installment of the new councils is done, before changing these councils' compositions (for example, the issue with Lega Nord vs Lista Zaia members would be solved soon if we just had waited for the first session of the new council of Veneto, when the groups are formed). --Ritchie92 (talk) 11:46, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I totally agree, let's wait until the installment of the new councils. -- Nick.mon (talk) 12:14, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree.--Facquis (talk) 12:43, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it would have been better to wait.

However, all 35 elected regional councillors from the three lists sponsored by Liga Veneta per Salvini Premier in Veneto (Liga Veneta, Zaia Presidente and Lista Veneta Autonomia) are members of Liga Veneta–Lega (there is no single independent), thus they should be considered as such.

Cheers, --Checco (talk) 16:36, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

What about the members of the other Presidents' lists? De Luca, Emiliano, Bonaccini... I guess many of these people are PD members. --Ritchie92 (talk) 17:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Such information would be tremendously interesting, so please share it. I would always make notes on "president's lists" in the "electoral results" sections of the articles on political parties. However, while most "president's lists" are composed also of independents (just think of Lopalco in Apulia) and people from minor parties (think of Italy Alive and Action having elects in Bonaccini's list), the two additional lists filed in Veneto were officially formed by League members, with minor exceptions, and all the elected councillors are League members. --Checco (talk) 21:27, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok probably they are mainly League members but the list is a "civic list", as even Zaia stressed after his great result (Il Fatto Quotidiano). We cannot simply sum the League's votes and Zaia's votes. -- Nick.mon (talk) 07:38, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

We have always done that for League politicians' lists in tables, with note. Maroni List and especially Zaia lists are not truly "civic lists" as they are fully controlled by the party and its candidates/elects are all members of the party. Let's continue to do that.

This is even more necessary for this table. If an IV politician is elected from the Bonaccini list, it should be given to IV (and that is exactly what we are currently doing in the table). That is quite easier for Zaia list's elects: as I have explained (and there are plenty of sources), all 35 elects from the three Venetian League-sponsored lists are party members. --Checco (talk) 16:34, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Checco Donato Toma is not a member of FI "Donato Toma non ha la tessera di Forza Italia, non è iscritto al partito", and Tomas Piccinini is not a member of LN "Senza patria politica dal 2004, anno in cui ha avuto l’ultima tessera di Alleanza nazionale, Piccinini è un civico".--Facquis (talk) 12:27, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

On Toma the very article you mentioned states that he is a FI member! Nothing of what is written in the second article contradicts the fact that Piccinini is now a member of the League: there are plenty of sources stating that all elects from the three League-sponsored lists are leghisti or, better, lighisti. --Checco (talk) 16:07, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Facquis is right, actually Toma is an independent close to Forza Italia, but he is not its member and he doesn't sit in the FI group. Furthermore, it appears nowhere that Thomas Piccinini is a member of the League, he himself defines himself as civic. About the Zaia list elects, they are probably all members of the League, the candidates of the LSP belonged to the Salvini wing, those of the Zaia list to the Luca Zaia wing. However the Zaia list can be defined a civic list, therefore the count of its members among those of the League in the table is not automatic.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 17:29, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Presidents are elected separately from party lists, thus they often sit in a one-person group: Toma is definitely a FI member, as also the source linked above shows. More important, as I said, all the elects from the League-sponsored lists were or, upon their election, are members of the party; moreover, while sitting in different political groups in the Council, they will have a common whip and structure; ZP was not a true "civic" list and, as well as LAV, it was only an instrument for obtaining more votes and more seats for the League: we can have a note, if you want, but we cannot simply ignore that all those people are full members of the League and take orders from the League (the party is particularly "Marxist-Leninist" in Veneto). --Checco (talk) 09:55, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Although generally Donato Toma is referred to as a member of FI, he is not actually a member of the party (here it is said explicitly: [1]). Furthermore I don't understand where the belief that Thomas Piccinini is a member of the League comes from, I haven't seen any source about it, until proven otherwise he is not a member of the League.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

As the articles explains, Toma is a matter of debate, but OK.

Piccinini has long been a member of the LN (see here, for instance) and being a member of the party is now a sort of conditio sine qua non after being elected in a League-sponsored list. --Checco (talk) 16:08, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

It does not seem to me an extremely reliable proof, on the contrary it appears that in the past Piccinini was a member of AN and then provincial vice-coordinator of FLI ([2], [3]), however Piccinini himself presented himself as an independent and civic candidate.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 10:05, 30 October 2020 (UTC)