Talk:Committee for Skeptical Inquiry/Archive 5

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Another problem

Don't you think there is also a problem with this:

Since paranormal claims are potentially revolutionary scientific discoveries that by definition run counter to the established body of scientific knowledge, CSICOP members argue that nothing less than the strictest standards of scientific scrutiny should be accepted as convincing. Such standards include well-designed and controlled scientific experiments published in reputable peer-reviewed journals, followed by independent replication by other researchers.

It basically assumes, without argument, that 1) paranormal science doesn't meet the strictest standards, which is very debatable in the case of parapsychology. 2), it basically says that there are no reputable peer-reviewed journals in paranormal fields. It impugns, for instance, the Journal of Parapsychology.

Martinphi 06:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so, but the paragraph could be improved. Parapsychology is not accepted outside the field of parapsychology. Bubba73 (talk), 15:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the statement is that it simply does not apply in the way it is applied in the article. For example, parapsychologists do actually do exactly what CSICOP supposedly espouses - they conduct well designed, properly controlled scientific experiments, and publish their results in peer-review journals. Most organised skepticism on the other hand, certainly CSICOP's particular brand, consists of armchair speculation, superficial investigations and experiments (e.g, Joe Nickel takes time out from holidaying in Argentina to "debunk" a haunted cemetary, expose a few miracles, and suck the blood from the Chupacabra myth[1] - all in a day's work eh!), which are then published in general interest publications. The point being that there is nothing wrong per se with Sagan's mantra; but it simply doesn't apply in the way it is extended and explained here.Davkal 16:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Parapsychology, or paranormal belief, has a lot of acceptance in the sciences. It's just not professionally espoused, because you'll get tarred and feathered over it, because there's little lab proof, and because there's no theory (see parapsychology page). But, anyway, I agree with Davkal, that's the problem with the paragraph.

Martinphi 19:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to provide some backup for Martinphi's point: you can find this on the Skepdic website, "according to a survey of 1100 college professors in the US, 55% of professors in the natural sciences believe "telepathy is either an established fact or highly likely". Davkal 19:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't quote Wikipedia. It's ESP, not Telepathy. Modern figures taken from Stanford show that a mere 1% believe in telepathy. Intelligent scientists don't believe in that hocus pocus. There is nothing assumed there. It is stating the beliefs of the organization. It is very POV to misrepresent the organization's views. Furthermore, no rigorous scientific evidence for the paranormal has ever been done.

Davkal making an appeal to popularity and quoting a misquote he found on Wikipedia doesn't mean much.

It's from Attitudes Of College Professors Toward Extra-Sensory Perception.

-Nathan J. Yoder 06:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Hocus Pocus wow talk about neutrality. This statement leaves no room for other viewpoints. Clearly a POV situation Magnum Serpentine (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a talk page, not a Wikipedia article. And yes, editors have points of view. Even you.--Aunt Entropy (talk) 23:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In the name of all that's Holy

Here I am going on and on for weeks, months (what seems like years) claiming that CSICOP is a misnomer because they're not really interested in scientific investigation of claims of the of the paranormal but are pushing one particlur (ultra)skeptical line; only to be met with howls of derision about this being my POV only, and (un)righteous indignation at the mere suggestion that CSICOP is not the most bona fide SCIENBLOODYTIFIC organisation, inetersted in scientific inquiry in the superscientific manner suggested by his holiness Carl Sagan when, what do you know, CSICOP changes its name and gets rid of the "scientific" part. As Jimmy Saville so eloquently put it, "now then, now then, now then, 'ows about that then guys and gals uuaoouuaoouuaoo" - not sure how you spell his trademark noise.Davkal 20:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Gonna to get someone KILLED

CSICOP keeps saying about Bigfoot and the like:"Bring in a BODY". That will only get some ass in some costume killed, and CSICOP may be implicated in homicide. 65.163.113.170 (talk) 08:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

That's doubtful - unless a CSICOP member participates in the shooting of "some ass in a costume".Simonm223 (talk) 20:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Name change

I'm not sure we should simply print almost verbatim a section from what appears to be a CSICOP press release about their name change. For one thing it includes a number of demonstrably false claims - for example, the claim that "after three decades of baring questionable fringe and pseudoscience claims to the objective eye of the scientific method." might suggest to a reader that CSICOP actually engaged in and/or supported scientific investigations into claims of the paranormal. As has been pointed out time and time again here, there is no evidence that they have done anything of the sort, and much evidence to suggest the opposite, e.g, scientific studies of the paranormal conducted by CSICOP - no, serious scientific research into the paranormal sponsored or supported by CSICOP - no, scientific articles on the paranormal published in peer-review journals under the auspices of CSICOP - no, superficial investigations published in general interest magazines - yes, members appearing on TV as experts on paranormal issues - yes, publicity stunt experiments for TV - yes.

In contrtast to this, the article dealing with the name change (you get it by following the new CSI link at the bottom of the article) gives more information which could be summarised in a far more neutral way. The main reasons given there being: a) a media friendly shortening; b)a move away from the confusion caused by the inclusion of the word "paranormal" which made CSICOP appear to some to be an organisation that supports the paranormal instead of one that investigates it (with apparently no sense of the obvious contradiction this might lead to if unbiased research was undertaken); and c)a desire to broaden the scope of the name to cover the broader issues actually dealt with by CSICOP. Davkal 22:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's like printing an advert. Go for it. -THB 22:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it's blatant PR. Dreadlocke ☥ 23:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I see that it has been changed, I have added in a brief summary from the CSI lead article about the name change. Hope this fairly summarises the points.Davkal 12:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Other CSI include:

• Church of Scientology International
• Civilian Saucer Intelligence
• Civilian Saucer Investigations

Bubba73 (talk), 18:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Time to change article title

It's time to change this article's title to Committee for Skeptical Inquiry and leave a redirect here. The whole article needs to be gone through for relevant places to update the name. -- Fyslee 13:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll go through the article and update this afternoon (not sure how to do the redirect so will leave that to others). I think we should say "CSI, formerly CSICOP,..." in the first line and leave it like that for a good while. Yes, no?Davkal 13:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good. The old name should still be mentioned in some places, and with time can be phased out and left only in the historical parts. -- Fyslee 13:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The move and redirect are now done, with double redirects taken care of. It remains to edit the article accordingly. --BillC 15:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I too think the CSICOP name should be mentioned (i.e. "formerly CSICOP"), because it is going to take some time for people to learn that, including me. I know when I hear "C.S.I." I'm going to think first of the TV show. Bubba73 (talk), 16:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have in many places CSICOP to CSI. Most of the ones I have left relate to things that happened within the "CSICOP" timscale and where the formation of the organisation is being discussed. It may need more changed though but I think it's a good start.Davkal 15:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I take it the change has now been implemented?? The first line of the Name Change section should probably be amended.Davkal 15:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It has. Their website has already been updated. --BillC 15:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

article now updated.Davkal 16:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent teamwork, everyone! Looking good! Dreadlocke ☥ 21:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations on a job well done! Where else but Wikipedia can it be done so quickly? -- Fyslee 22:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Hope it's OK that i made a minor edit to tighten up the name change section. The actual organization is more interesting than the history of it's names and acronyms imho. In a year or so, one paragraph would likely suffice. JeanKorte 22:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Change "Humor" to "Sarcasim and Ridicule..."

The particular example of the trophies is clearly sarcasim - a type of humor funny only to the teller. While this may betray my personal belief concerning csicop, it certainly can't be aruged with that such displays are obviously biased.

I wonder when CSICOP will rebuke the Pope for perpetuating the irrational belief in the transubstantiation. I wonder when they'll go to Mecca - let the pilgrims know that big rock isn't from Allah afterall.

CSICOP claims these paranormal situations have no power over people; I wonder how true that assumption really is? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by T.C. Craig (talk • contribs) 05:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

I think there is a serious point here inasmuch as many critics have pointed out that CSI(COP) does indeed often resort to sarcasm and ridicule rather than what could really be described as humour. Indeed it is one trait that has actually led some who agree with CSI's philosophical position to be critical of the organisation. It might be worth noting this in the paragraph in question. Davkal 07:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed T.C. Craig

The big problem with noting that in the text is that you invoke POV when you characterize it as sarcasm and ridicule. Doczilla 06:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for help with "CIIS" article"

A dispute has emerged over the article for CIIS (The California Institute of Integral Studies) as to whether the school can be said to have "rigorous" academic standards, or is "flaky" and "marginal" within academia. The school offers degrees in psychology and the humanities, with numerous courses on subjects like astrology. (My favorite: "Menstruation: Blood, Bread, and Roses," taught through the medium of "ritual".) It is regionally accredited, and its psychology program is subject-accredited. Anyway, please have a look at the article and its discussion. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.167.169.210 (talk) 00:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Why are Skeptics so abusive ?!

Read the archives about someone who nearly got shot by a Bigfoot witness because skeptics accused the Fouke
witnesses of being drunk, on dope, fucking the monster, being idiot hillbillies, worse.

Also seen on the Paranormal talk page regarding supression of evidence of criticisim of skeptics, especially of Philip Klass.

My Church preacher says that "all unbelievers" will be damned to The Lake of Fire. 65.163.113.231 (talk) 20:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that.Simonm223 (talk) 20:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Damn glitches. 65.163.113.231 (talk) 20:02, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

CIA Front ?!

Holy shit !!!! Is THAT True ?! "Some guy who was in "Intelligence" said that this org was a CIA front as well." Seen that on the UFO Talk page some time back. The implication is that this org was part of the Robertson Panel and/or the Operation Mockingbird guidelines to keep people quiet about UFOs and the like. 65.173.105.118 (talk) 01:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This accusation derives from an attempt to start a rumor to this effect as a dirty trick by the Church of Scientology, in response to an article critical of them in one of the early issues of Skeptical Inquirer. It's probably worth mentioning in the article; it became public and was reported in Skeptical Inquirer after documents seized from Scientology's HQ were made public by the FBI. Lippard (talk) 00:34, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like it's already there! Lippard (talk) 00:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

TV series?

Wasn't there a fictional late-night television series about this show? I'm pretty sure there was. Does anyone remember it?--Howdybob 02:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is. It's called Psi Factor: Chronicles of the Paranormal. It follows the actions of the OSIR (The Office of Scientific Investigation and Research). And, very strangely indeed, neither the show, or even its fictional organization is mentioned in this article to spite the fact they are both obviously based directly on CSICOP. I can't believe that nobody picked this up before, or even mentioned the fact that an entire TV series was devoted to CSICOP, but just under a different name. Dark Observer 15:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

One more thing: I did not say that Psi Factor is the really taking first-hand accounts of CSICOP, rather simply, that the show derives extremely similar characteristics as to this skeptical foundation, which is involved in paranormal research. Dark Observer 15:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The main difference being, however, that CSI(COP)has never really been involved in paranormal research. That is, their main aims are, and always have been: a) to offer non-paranormal explanations to the media whenever some new paranormal claim is made (for example, if a UFO sighting takes place CSI spokespeople will soon appear in the media reciting their swap gas/weather balloon/misidentification etc. mantra); and b) to take the media to task over their "sensationalist" approach to the paranormal in terms of both fictional and non-fictional output (e.g. moaning about programmes like the X-Files, Buffy and, no doubt, The Psi Factor, as well as non-fictional stuff like newspaper horoscopes). I hardly think the sorry tale of a few scared and angry old men, upset that not everyone buys their peculiar world view, would make a very good drama series and, from what I can see, the makers of the Psi Factor thought likewise.Davkal 15:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

So, do you agree or disagree? The similarities are quite apparent, all it is, is really just a re-formatting of the basic concept of CSICOP. To disprove paranormal claims. Have you even seen Psi Factor for yourself? It's very close to this. Dark Observer 16:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I have talked to a few CSI members and they feel that everything related to UFO's etc does not exist and they even told me that their goal was to make sure that such was forgotten by the main stream media. Not sure if they were pulling my leg but looking at the situation today, seems they have almost met their goals... Magnum Serpentine (talk) 16:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:ZeteticVol1No1.jpg

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Misozabot this talk page

If it's acceptable to everyone, I'm going to install MiszaBot on this page. Any objections? Paranormal Skeptic (talk) 17:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Truth in "Science"?

I don't really have a position on this case, but to say that

CSI's Commission for Scientific Medicine and Mental Health also published a detailed response to these and other objections, saying that biasing the odds against Natasha was appropriate because her claims were unlikely to be true.[28][29]

When is bias acceptable in scientific inquiry? Why should the skeptics get the last word? Why should the average reader have to make the inference that this is nonsense? This is a hyperlinked encyclopedia. Where is the relevant link to the page on bias in science or the rudiments of the scientific method? Religious skeptics don't seem to admit that science proceeds both on the basis of hypothesis before observation (e.g., much theoretical physics) and observation before hypothesis (or theory), e.g. heliocentrism, gravity, continental drift, genetics, a good deal of evidence of evolution, etc. ad infinitum et nauseum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.253.227 (talk) 03:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Errr - and your point is? Shot info (talk) 02:45, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

My point is in regard to the phrase "unlikely to be true." Based on what? A law of physics that says this is impossible (there is none)? The fact that ingrained skeptics would have to laboriously reappraise their state of knowledge if it was? It's pure, shocking bias that has nothing to with science and is in fact base, vulgar, and superstitious (i.e. unfounded, derived from emotion rather than empiricism). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.253.227 (talk) 04:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

The phrase in question is a paraphrase from the two sources supplied after the phrase, so I'm still failing to understand what you are arguing for here. Shot info (talk) 04:57, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I also fail to understand your objection. Have you read the two references? I see nothing "base, vulgar, and superstitious (i.e. unfounded, derived from emotion rather than empiricism)" in the sentence or in the references cited. Perhaps you are misunderstanding the word "bias" as used here. In this case, bias means a balance between selectivity (few false positives pass) versus sensitivity (few true positives fail). The authors of the references explain the justification for the level of sensitivity/selectivity they selected. One of the reasons was that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". A second reason that they mention is plausability; many claims of this nature had been evaluated in the past but all, without exception, were found to be fraudulent. Taking precautions to preclude further instances of fraud is not the type of bias that is "unfounded or based on emotion rather than empiricism". If you're saying that the investigators should have treated Natasha's claims as if they were unaware of previous similar cases, you would be unjustified. The fact that the nature of the whole test was to preclude that her results were due to fraud or dumb luck is indeed consitent with the scientific method. The investigators adequately justify their skepticism and selection of the testing criteria in the references cited. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:42, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

CSI Fellows list

Is there any good purpose served by listing every Fellow, past and present? The list is quite lengthy, and is rather like publishing an alumni directory. It should, at the very least, be restricted to notables (those with wiki articles), who make up a majority of the list. Plazak (talk) 14:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Independent Investigations Group

The relationship between the CSI and the IIG (if any) is not stated in the IIG section, leaving this reader to wonder why the section on IIG is placed in this article. Also, there are items under the IIG subhead that appear to pertain to CSI, but not IIG. Can someone help me out here? Thanks. Plazak (talk) 14:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Disagreement regarding the claim of pseudoskepticism being in the lead.

Regarding the idea of taking this dispute to arbitration, it is too early for that.
But in case it comes to that, here is a recap…
IP 109.65.13.19 added the below to the lead with the comment.. “added summery of the controversial section in the article's intro as per WP:LEAD “ [2]

CSI has been accused of pseudoskepticism and an overly dogmatic and arrogant approach based on a priori convictions. It has been suggested that their aggressive style of skepticism could discourage scientific research into the paranormal.

The reference was from the American Society for Psychical Research,(ASPR) a society that became “formally active in 1885 … with astronomer Simon Newcomb as first President.” It publishes the quarterly Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research. thus meeting the definition of a WP:RELIABLE source.
IP 109.65.13.19’s claim of justification comes from this quote in WP:LEAD “(The lead) should define the topic, establish context, … and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.”

Below I argue that the lead addition meets the definition of a “prominent controversy” Not only is it the view amongst many psychical research organizations that CSI behaves in a pseudoskeptic manner, that this view has also come from two co-founders of the organization.
The below is a quote from this CSI wiki article’s Controversy and criticism section.

Some criticism has also come from within the scientific community and at times from within CSI itself. Marcello Truzzi, one of CSICOP's co-founders, left the organization after only a short time, arguing that many of those involved “tend to block honest inquiry, in my opinion. Most of them are not agnostic toward claims of the paranormal; they are out to knock them. [...] When an experiment of the paranormal meets their requirements, then they move the goal posts.” Truzzi coined the term pseudoskeptic to describe critics in whom he detected such an attitude.

Truzzi also wrote in “Reflections on the Reception of Unconventional Claims in Science” the following…

“Originally I was invited to be a co-chairman of CSICOP by Paul Kurtz. I helped to write the bylaws and edited their journal. I found myself attacked by the Committee members and board, who considered me to be too soft on the paranormalists. My position was not to treat protoscientists as adversaries, but to look to the best of them and ask them for their best scientific evidence. I found that the Committee was much more interested in attacking the most publicly visible claimants. . . . The major interest of the Committee was not inquiry but to serve as an advocacy body, a public relations group for scientific orthodoxy. The Committee has made many mistakes. My main objection to the Committee, and the reason I chose to leave it, was that it was taking the public position that it represented the scientific community, serving as gatekeepers on maverick claims, whereas I felt they were simply unqualified to act as judge and jury when they were simply lawyers. . . . “

A Collection of Weblinks

Another case of internal decent is that of Dennis Rawlins who..

…is a cofounder of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (now CSI) and served on CSICOP's Executive Council from 1976 to 1979. Until 1980 he was an Associate Editor of Skeptical Inquirer.
He holds degrees in physics from Harvard University (B.A.) and Boston University (M.A.). His researches have been published in Nature, Astronomical Journal, American Journal of Physics, U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings and other leading publications in the fields of astronomy, geophysics, geography and history of science.

sTARBABY

He wrote an article in the pro-paranormal magazine Fate called sTARBABY
From this wiki article’s Controversy and criticism section a quote reads..

Rawlins, … resigned in early 1980 claiming that other CSICOP researchers had used incorrect statistics, faulty science, and outright falsification in an attempt to debunk Gauquelin’s claims. In an article for the pro-paranormal magazine Fate, he wrote: "I am still skeptical of the occult beliefs CSICOP was created to debunk. But I have changed my mind about the integrity of some of those who make a career of opposing occultism."

From the original source, that quote goes directly on to read…

I now believe that if a flying saucer landed in the backyard of a leading anti-UFO spokesman, he might hide the incident from the public (for the public's own good, of course). He might swiftly convince himself that the landing was a hoax, a delusion or an "unfortunate" interpretation of mundane phenomena that could be explained away with "further research."

In the sTARBABY article he goes into great detail about the experience he had when working on the Mars Effect investigation.

The Editors of Fate introduced the sTARBABY article with this…

The story that follows, written by a man who is himself skeptical of the paranormal, confirms what critics of CSICOP have long suspected: that the organization is committed to perpetuating a position, not to determining the truth”

Some of Dennis Rawlins’s Quotes are below…

..it was at this point that the handling of the Gauquelin problem was transformed from mere bungling to deliberate cover-up.
….
The Smoking Letter to Kurtz reveals that KZA knew they were in trouble. But as Abell learned pronto, Kurtz wasn't about to publish any letter that admitted Gauquelin had won the Control Test.
…
On January 17, 1979, I wrote a memorandum on the dirty dealing I'd witnessed.
…
The writer understood that the experimental results supported Gauquelin, that Kurtz, Abell and Zelen had screwed up the test and that CSICOP's leaders, primarily Kurtz, had tried to cover up the mess, thereby creating a "Buffalogate." This writer said he had long harbored doubts about the way CSICOP was being run.
…
My upcoming Skeptical Inquirer article ( 1979 winter) on the Gauquelin matter has been neatly censored here and there…
…
…at which private event it was unanimously decided that I should be "not renominated" (in absentia) and that (after a cosmetic interval) George Abell was to be elevated to Councilor. What this sleight of ballot switch portends for the future scientific level and integrity of the ruling body of CSICOP can be most quickly understood …
…
I am resigning from the Skeptical Inquirer Editorial Board ... in reaction to the Board's handling of empirical testing (when the results do not come out as expected)

In case one feels the above quotes might have been taken out of context and given that sTarbaby is a lengthy 16000 word document, some extended versions of the quotes as well as more quotes are in the collapsed section below.

Additional and expanded quotes of Dennis Rawlins in sTARBABY

The below quotes are of Dennis Rawlins’s and are from an article called sTARBABY published in Fate magazine. They support the claims of Pseudoskepticism against CSI (CSICOP) members. The italics is Rawlins’s the Bold is mine. The Editors of Fate introduced the article with this… Critics such as Fate, professional parapsychologists and moderate skeptics like former CSICOP cochairman Prof. Marcello Truzzi, sociologist at Eastern Michigan University, have questioned the Committee's commitment to objective, scientific investigation of paranormal claims and have accused some CSICOP spokesmen of misrepresenting issues and evidence. But such dissenting views were little noticed by media writers eager to headline sensational -- although frequently unsupported -- debunking claims. The story that follows, written by a man who is himself skeptical of the paranormal, confirms what critics of CSICOP have long suspected: that the organization is committed to perpetuating a position, not to determining the truth Dennis Rawlins’s Quotes are below… I USED to believe it was simply a figment of the National Enquirer's weekly imagination that the Science Establishment would cover up evidence for the occult. But that was in the era B.C. -- Before the Committee. I refer to the "Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal" (CSICOP), of which I am a cofounder and on whose ruling Executive Council (generally called the Council) I served for some years. … … it was at this point that the handling of the Gauquelin problem was transformed from mere bungling to deliberate cover-up. Rawlins said the following regarding James Randi, who according to his wiki article “ was a founding fellow and prominent member of CSICOP. and who was active in CSI at the time… I mention this quote now because Randi is mentioned in subsequent quotes. Randi… assured me how cautious he was in the testing for his well-publicized $ 10,000 prize for proof of psychic abilities (for which he acts as policeman, judge and jury -- and thus never has supported my idea of neutral judgment of CSICOP tests. “I always have an out,” he said. To continue with Rawlins’s quotes regarding CSI’s behaviour… The Smoking Letter answers the same key question that hung over the Watergate conspirators: When did they know? The answer is astonishing: over half a year before the cover-up Control Test report was published. … The Smoking Letter to Kurtz reveals that KZA knew they were in trouble. But as Abell learned pronto, Kurtz wasn't about to publish any letter that admitted Gauquelin had won the Control Test. … …I innocently thought that Kurtz could hardly refuse again to publish my dissent. In a covering note I made it clear that this time I would insist. The moment Kurtz read this, I was a dead CSICOP in his royal eyes. …. During the afternoon meeting, when we established a rule for expelling Councilors, Randi bellowed that it is called the "Rawlins rule." Randi meant, of course, that expulsion could come for public dissent. No other Councilor present (Gardner was not) said a word to suggest any other inference. I might add that two months later Randi foolishly boasted about how he "had to work to keep Dennis in line" in Washington, having convinced himself, apparently, that his threats had kept me quiet. …. On January 17, 1979, I wrote a memorandum on the dirty dealing I'd witnessed. I sent it and another memo ("On Fighting Pseudoscience with Pseudoscience") to most of CSICOP's Fellows. ….. The first Fellow to phone Randi about the memoranda asked him about various charges they contained, Randi admitted uncomfortably that they were true as far as he knew -- but then he quickly changed the subject. … Many of CSICOP's Fellows fell for the unity pitch or copped a none-of-my-business plea. A letter from one Fellow amused me in light of Council pretenses that it didn't understand the charges. .. The writer understood that the experimental results supported Gauquelin, that Kurtz, Abell and Zelen had screwed up the test and that CSICOP's leaders, primarily Kurtz, had tried to cover up the mess, thereby creating a "Buffalogate." This writer said he had long harbored doubts about the way CSICOP was being run. A later letter written by the same Fellow contains a prescient sentence: "I regard your charges as very serious. ... Something must be done before we read about all of this in FATE " … (Randi).. stated without qualification that Gardner Hyman and he all supported my scientific position on the sTARBABY mess. … On November 6, two days after a last request to Frazier to reconsider, I circulated a memo to all my fellow associate editors: …My upcoming Skeptical Inquirer article ( 1979 winter) on the Gauquelin matter has been neatly censored here and there, so I have asked to add a statement saying so and suggesting that readers who wish to consult the original version may do so by contacting me… … By another of our paranormal coincidences, only one person was "not renominated" and I was replaced by Abell. ... I took Frazier up on his offer and prepared this statement for the news column. …at which private event it was unanimously decided that I should be "not renominated" (in absentia) and that (after a cosmetic interval) George Abell was to be elevated to Councilor. What this sleight of ballot switch portends for the future scientific level and integrity of the ruling body of CSICOP can be most quickly understood … ... Obviously it was a hoked-up scenario. When I asked, a Councilor admitted that kicking me off the Council had not even been discussed until just a week before the December 1978 press conference, where Council feared I would expose sTARBABY. Indeed, only 10 minutes previously Council had attempted again to suppress my public dissent at the press conference we had just left. … [8] That Councilors Kurtz, Randi, Philip Klass, and Lee Nisbet conspired to keep dissent (read "schism") from sullying the press conference was eventually admitted from the inside in a July 6, 1979, conversation. (See also June 26 document prepared by Randi and marked "Confidential," discussed below.) ... Every one of the Councilors who say they know something about the sTARBABY knows that it was a disaster. Yet Skeptical Inquirer readers are given to believe nothing went wrong. I will finish with Rawlins’s views regarding the scientific capabilities of CSI, concerning one of his contributions to the Mars Effect study… It's revealing that a lone "amateur" could perform at one sitting a project that the combined CSICOP forces of UCLA, Harvard and SUNYAB didn't get anywhere with for years, despite their access to a highly accurate U.S. Naval Observatory planetary-position program.

Bottom of Dave3457’s initial contribution

In conclusion..
I have altered and put back the pseudoskepticism claim into the lead. From it I removed the word arrogant and added the opinions of two co-founders. A copy of it is below.

CSI has been accused of pseudoskepticism and an overly dogmatic approach based on a priori convictions. It has been suggested that their aggressive style of skepticism could discourage scientific research into the paranormal. One co-founder has stated that they “block honest inquiry” and a second has said that they have engaged in a “deliberate cover-up”

Below are the arguments of those who objected to the inclusion of the Pseudoskepticism comment. At this point their position is only known by way of their comments when reverting the edit. Below were their comments in the back and forth edit war.

WP:UNDUE to put that in the intro.
Undue weight, questionable fringe source.
Both WP:UNDUE and not a WP:RELIABLE source.
seems you need to establish the WP:RS status of that ref first. (TW)
Unreliable self-serving source.
No. It's not reliable. If you disagree, take it to WP:RSN.

At this point in the history I put forth my lead addition with the comment…
…Please refer to my lengthy defense of this Edit on the talk page called...”Disagreement regarding the claim of pseudoskepticism being in the lead”

Regarding the view that the sources are not WP:RELIABLE SOURCES ..
According to WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, the below is the definition of a reliable source.

Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people.

The first source is The American Society for Psychical Research which maintains offices and a library and publishes the quarterly Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, and therefore has a “reliable publication process”. The sources of Marcello Truzzi and Dennis Rawlins are “authoritative in relation to the subject” since they were co-founders of the organization.

Regarding the view that it is not suitable for the lead. The relevant quote from MOS:LEAD is…

The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.

I have proven beyond doubt that the accusations of pseudoskepticism among CSI members meets the definition of a “prominent controversy” CSI’s behavior during the Mars Effect study not only resulted in a co-founder resigning but also in him writing a scathing report in a prominent pro-paranormal magazine accusing them of a “cover-up”.

Regarding the WP:UNDUE claim, below is the relevant quote from the MOS page.

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints…in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views.

The section WP:UNDUE does not mention the lead. That being said it can not be argued that the lead addition does not “represent a significant viewpoint” It is a viewpoint that is held by many if not most pro-paranormal organizations. On top of that, it is a viewpoint that is held by at least two co-founders of the organization.
Secondly, CSI’s stated purpose, as described in the lead, is to "encourage the critical investigation of paranormal and fringe-science claims from a responsible, scientific point of view and disseminate factual information about the results of such inquiries to the scientific community and the public." If that stated purpose is contradicted by two former co-founders, then again, theirs is a “significant viewpoint”, and clearly deservers mention in the lead.

If anyone chooses to revert my edit please explain your grounds in detail and where you think my views above are flawed or incomplete. Dave3457 (talk) 06:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

You discuss and get consensus for your revert here BEFORE you restore contested material. Since four editors have reverted your addition, it should pretty obvious that you have not yet gained consensus.

Too long, didn't read. It's unreasonable of you to expect anyone to spend their time sifting through your wall of text. If you have an argument to make, do so concisely and to the point. Remember, the more you write, the less convincing you are.

None of the sources you've used are reliable. The American Society for Psychical Research is a sham group, and their "journal" is a sham publication. They fail WP:RS by a wide mile. They have no recognized expertise in the field, and their opinions carry no weight.

The second source you added is a self-published blog, reliable for uncontroversial information about the author himself, perhaps, but not for information about third parties. Probably fails as self-serving, too.

The third source is, resumably, another blog or article written in an unrelaible source. Again, not reliable for information about third parties.

They also all fail WP:UNDUE. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Dave, are you seriously trying to assert that the ASPR is a reliable source because it's old? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 22:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I haven't had time to read all this. However, pretty much every fringe group out there that CSI either directly criticizes or whose theories they critize is going to have said negative things about CSI. What makes this journal or group any different? Also, if it was "Journal of Psychology" I wouldn't mind. But it's a journal dedicated to psychic phenomenon. That's kind of fringe. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a PR website, It is an encyclopedia. Dave3457 has presented solid arguments and citations why the 'controversy' paragraph definitely belongs in the lead according to Wikipedia guidelines. The only unfounded Resistance seems to be coming from members/Supporters of CSI.79.179.9.141 (talk) 04:53, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Dominus quote: “Too long, didn't read.”

I’m sorry my defense of the edit was so long but this is a very important edit. I tried my best to keep it as short as possible but there were multiple objections and the WP:UNDUE objection required laying out the accumulative information that shows pseudoskepticism is widespread within the organization. I am very disappointed that I spent 9 hours writing it but you could not find the time to read it. If your going to revert other peoples work I personally think that you have the responsibility to read their objections.

Dominus quote: None of the sources you've used are reliable.

Your WP:RELIABLE SOURCES objection was dealt with about 2 dozen lines above the end of my entry. Go to the now bolded line that reads “Regarding the view that the sources are not WP:RELIABLE SOURCES” Please do the right thing and read it. All three sources, without a doubt meet the definition of a reliable source. I would additionally point out that each of the three sources are used in the body of the article.

Dominus quote: The American Society for Psychical Research is a sham group, … and their opinions carry no weight.

Please do the right thing and take the time to read the below which is from ASPR’s website. The bold is mine.

The American Society for Psychical Research is the oldest psychical research organization in the United States. For more than a century, it's mission has been to explore … unexplained phenomena that have been called psychic or paranormal… The ASPR addresses these profoundly important and far-reaching questions with scientific research and related educational activities including lectures, conferences and other information services.

The ASPR was founded in 1885 by a distinguished group of scholars and scientists… among them renowned Harvard psychologist and Professor of Philosophy, William James. Many of the early participants were pioneers in psychology, psychiatry, physics and astronomy. Freud and Jung were honorary members. Luminaries from a wide range of disciplines have been drawn to the Society throughout its history, including Chester Carlson, the inventor of Xerox; quantum physicist, David Bohm; psychologist Gardner Murphy; and dream researcher Montague Ullman, M.D.

The ASPR library and archives are a leading repository of significant aspects of …

In recent years the ASPR has participated in groundbreaking exhibits of rare photographs at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City and the Maison européenne de la photographie in Paris. It also participated in exhibits at the Hammer Museum in Los Angeles, the ...

Are you arguing that that Freud and Jung were honorary members of a “sham group”? That David Bohm, a man that discussed his theories with Albert Einstein was “drawn” to a “sham group”. I have to say that I suspect that you consider it to be a “sham group” because you personally don’t believe in paranormal phenomena. But that is a personal view and therefore not appropriate here.
In my opinion you owe it to the good name of Wikipedia to distinctly state below the grounds on which you believe it is a “sham group”.

Dominus quote: The second source you added is a self-published blog...

They are reliable sources because they are “authoritative in relation to the subject” since they were co-founders of the organization. How more authoritative on the question of CSI’s pseudoskepticism can you be? Contrary to your argument, the source of the quotes can be blogs or such. This is because it is not the source that makes the quote reliable it is the fact that the person is “authoritative in relation to the subject”. Both conditions do not have to be true. Again, please read beginning at the above mention line.

Dominus quote: They also all fail WP:UNDUE. Please read the above beginning at the bolded line..”Regarding the WP:UNDUE claim,…” It is about 1 dozen lines from the end of my first entry.

Steven J. Anderson quote: Dave, are you seriously trying to assert that the ASPR is a reliable source because it's old?

No, age has nothing do whether a source is reliable. According to Wikipedia, the ASPR journal is a reliable source because “Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process” That is clearly true of the ASPR journal. Please read my above entry beginning with the line “Regarding the view that the sources are not WP:RELIABLE SOURCES”..

Harizotoh9 quote: “…pretty much every fringe group out there that CSI either directly criticizes or whose theories they criticize is going to have said negative things about CSI….”

I understand the position you’re coming from, but ask yourself this…Do they have the right to criticize CSI and argue that CSI is not being fair in their judgments? Of course they do, the question is whether or not their criticism deserves to be in the lead. As I mentioned above WP:UNDUE does not mention the lead. That leaves us with MOS:LEAD and whether or not the claim of pseudoskepticism is a “prominent controversy”. If CSI is indeed pseudoskeptical that flies in the face of their claim that they are unbiased. They have been accused of serious scientific misbehaviour, one co-founder has stated that they “block honest inquiry” and a second has said that they have engaged in a “deliberate cover-up”. That’s a really big deal!! It is simply not right that it should be effectively stated, in the lead, that they are objective and unbiased when there is strong evidence to the contrary. All I am arguing is that the paranormal community, given the strong evidence, has the right to suggest that that might not be true. I know you guys don’t believe in paranormal stuff but I beseech you to be fair and objective in this matter.

Harizotoh9 quote: Also, if it was "Journal of Psychology" I wouldn't mind. But it's a journal dedicated to psychic phenomenon. That's kind of fringe.

Harizotoh9, CSI deals with psychic phenomenon? Why would the "Journal of Psychology" have an opinion on the matter? It is not their views that are being challenged. Its not like this is an article about man’s origin on this planet and I’m suggesting that the lede give equal time to the views of creationists. This is more like an article that is exposing the flawed thinking of creationism. Would you argue that because creationists are a fringe group their objections to what is being said about their views don’t count and shouldn’t be voiced in such an article?
That being said I would not argue that those studying parapsychology are a fringe group, many prominent Universities have individuals studying it. David Bohm and many others like him take the subject very seriously. On top of that a CBS News poll says that “Nearly half of Americans say they believe in ghosts, or that the dead can return in certain places and situations.”. I think it is a little arrogant to just dismiss the views of half the population and then go further and dismiss their objection to how their views are being studied. Especially when you have two co-founders of the organization backing those views up.--Dave3457 (talk) 23:15, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to bother wading through all that, and it's insulting to me that you think I should. If you can't make your argument concise and to the point, that's a sign that you don't have any argument to make. Give it another try. MUCH shorter this time. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:28, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Dominus, again, please state why you believe the The American Society for Psychical Research is a “sham group”. I citied their credentials about 10 paragraphs up, but you don’t have to read them it you don’t want to.-- Dave3457 (talk) 17:27, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

WOW Dave3457 that was WAY more detail than is needed. As Dominus states, make your point quickly. And if I understand you correctly you support the Creationist viewpoint being allowed on the Evolution page? What about the page for Earth, Universe and so on? I have a problem with giving weight to this paranormal group just because "half of America believes in ghosts". And the argument that A professor at some university takes this stuff seriously should not give importance to this fringe group. I have never heard of David Bohm, but I know that Gary Schwartz also takes this subject seriously. From what I understand the University of Arizona where he has tenure is embarrassed by the lack of scientific controls and his "research" at the University. So that is two Professors that take this seriously. Maybe there are 100? And so... ? I'm sorry if I do not understand your argument, I can not wade through all the information you gave.Sgerbic (talk) 04:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sgerbic wrote: “And if I understand you correctly you support the Creationist viewpoint being allowed on the Evolution page? “

No, my quote above was “Its NOT like this is an article about man’s origin on this planet and I’m suggesting that the lede give equal time to the views of creationists.”

I did not argue, as you suggest, that I support inclusion " just because half of America believes in ghosts" but I do believe that fact should be kept in mind if your going to argue that something is a "fringe" belief. I'll have to get back to you later regarding the rest. --Dave3457 (talk) 17:42, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Dave3457, you are wasting your time here arguing with CSI groupies. for a NPOV decision take this dispute to arbitration.79.180.41.76 (talk) 19:20, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sgebic, the simple fact of the matter is that whether or not parapsychology is a fringe belief isn’t relevant. What is relevant is whether or not the view that CSI is engaging in pseudoskepticism is a fringe belief. That it isn’t a fringe belief is absolutely proven by the fact that two cofounders of that vary organization believe CSI is engaging in pseudoskepticism.

On a side note I found the below from Parapsychology#Rhine_era which may surprise you.

Carl Sagan took some parapsychology claims seriously

Carl Sagan suggested that there are three claims in the field of parapsychology which have at least some experimental support and "deserve serious study", as they "might be true": (1) that by thought alone humans can affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them; (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have know about in any other way than reincarnation.

Sorry, Dave. There's a whole host of problems here. If what the two former members had to say about CSI was important, it would have been reported in reliable independent sources with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Instead, the sources you've listed are their own blogs, which, as self-published sources, can't be used for information about third parties, and a unreliable fringe journal with no demonstrable reputation for fact checking and accuracy. All three sources have an axe to grind, so it's hard to take what they have to say seriously unless it has been reported on by reliable independent sources. You're going to have to find MUCH better sources that report these opinions.

As for Carl Sagan, his opinion doesn't mean much. It's only the word of one scientist, and it doesn't really say anything besides that it might be true, which is a banal and trivial fact that has no encyclopedic value. There might be a huge deposit of oil under Kenntucky, there might still be dinosaurs alive that we just haven't discovered yet, Barack Obama might decalre war on Moldavia. If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, it'd be Christmas every day! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:09, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Sagan.. First, it is not “only the word of one scientist” there are a whole host of scientists studying parapsychology. Secondly, by your reasoning, since string theory only might be true, it is a fringe belief and therefore if they have criticisms of an organization that is anti-string theory, they should not be allowed to have their views quoted on Wikipedia. But all that is mute, since whether or not parapsychology is fringe is irrelevant for the reasons stated above.
--Dave3457 (talk) 23:18, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Since the pseudoskepticism claim is being made by those who respect parapsychology and those who don’t, the below isn’t that relevant however...

Detailed proof that parapsychology is not “fringe” or pseudoscience.

Pseudoscience>>Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status. Note that the below only has to show that serious scientific study is taking place and that some major thinkers are pursuing the subject. Wikipedia >>The Koestler Parapsychology Unit is a research group established in 1985 at the University of Edinburgh, in Scotland, to teach and conduct research concerning various aspects of parapsychology. University of Edinburgh>> ”..third most popular university in the UK by volume of applicants”.. ”Regarded as one of the most prestigious universities in the world” “Graduates of the university include some of the major figures of modern history, including the naturalist Charles Darwin, physicist James Clerk Maxwell, philosopher David Hume... inventor Alexander Graham Bell,... The University is also associated with 15 Nobel Prize winners, Its Koestler Parapsychological Unit ... was founded to further objective scientific research into the paranormal. Many of the subjects that the unit investigates are usually disregarded by mainstream science and yet the unit has the respect of many psychologists in the world.” “Science embraced the study of the supernatural more than 150 years ago and a number of scientific research units around the world continue the work. “ “..now there are five similar university research centers across Britain, with many other centers opening around the world. “ “In 1999, the unit published papers that concluded with the existence of telepathy or psychokinesis.”---discovery.com article Koestler Parapsychology Unit Research The Perrott-Warrick Fund...will support a three-year programme of research into precognitive dream experiences.” New York Times>> “Harvard University has accepted a $10,000 endowment fund for psychical research,...” “the Parapsychological Association is a member of the American Association for the Advancement of Science which is the world's largest general scientific society, with 126,995 individual and institutional ....Today, the PA consists of about three hundred full, associate, and affiliated members worldwide.” Parapsychology research is conducted in some 30 different countries. Laboratory and field research is conducted through private institutions and universities. The following is from Cornell University’s Chronicle online. The title of which is....Study showing that humans have some psychic powers caps (Professor of Psychology) Daryl Bem's career “...All but one of the nine experiments confirmed the hypothesis that psi exists.” “Publishing on this topic has gladdened the hearts of psi researchers but stumped doubting social psychologists, who cannot fault Bem's mainstream and widely accepted methodology.” ... Bem published the results of nine experiments he had conducted over seven years that, in his view, constituted strong evidence of precognition. The paper, titled “Feeling the Future”, came out in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, a peer-reviewed publication held in high esteem by psychologists. [3] Journal of Personality and Social Psychology>>..is a monthly psychology journal of the American Psychological Association. It is considered one of the top journals in the fields of social and personality psychology. Wolfgang Pauli>>”theoretical physicist”..”Nobel Prize laureate..” ”..one of the pioneers of quantum physics.” Pauli_effect#History>>The Pauli effect, if it were real, would be classified as a "macro-psychokinetic" phenomenon. Pauli was convinced that the effect named after him was real. As Pauli considered parapsychology worthy of serious investigation, this would fit with his thinking; to this end, Pauli corresponded with Hans Bender (((who was responsible for establishing a parapsychological institute))) and Carl Jung on the concept of Synchronicity. Also refer to...Wolfgang Pauli and Parapsychology Brian David Josephson “… a Nobel Prize laureate” is a proponent of parapsychology. Refer to Brian_David_Josephson#Parapsychology David Bohm, a theoretical physicist, a contemporary of Einstein, was a proponent of parapsychology. Contributions>>Bohm_interpretation, Aharonov–Bohm effect, Bohm diffusion Carl Jung, wiki>>”According to Carl Jung, psychic energy might be operative. Sigmund Freud... Precognition#In_dreams>> “..According to Jung,.. years later.. Freud both "recognized the seriousness of parapsychology and acknowledged the factuality of 'occult' phenomena." Carl Sagan suggested that there are three claims in the field of parapsychology which have at least some experimental support and "deserve serious study", as they "might be true": (1) that by thought alone humans can affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them; (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have know about in any other way than reincarnation. The primary peer-reviewed parapsychological journals today include the following: Journal of Parapsychology Journal of the American Society of Psychic Research Journal of the Society of Psychical Research Zeitschrift fur Psychologische Grenzgebiete Other journals that have published parapsychological articles include: Foundations of Physics Journal of Scientific Exploration Proceedings of the IEEE Psychological Bulletin Statistical Science Science Nature [

Dave3457 (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2012 (UTC)